County hot over ACLU prayer lawsuit

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molder

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crazyfingers said:
The principle of separation between church and state is that government can not promote one religious idea over another religious idea or promote religion over non-religion or vice versa.

Do you think that that principle is just or do you think that it's unjust?
July 6, 1775, the Continental Congress passed the Declaration of the Causes and Necessity of Taking Up Arms which included: With a humble confidence in the Mercies of the Supreme and impartial God and ruler of the universe, we most devoutly implore His divine goodness to protect us happily through this great conflict, and to dispose of our adversaries to reconciliation on reasonable terms, and thereby to relieve the empire from the calamities of civil war.
http://www.moralconcerns.org/past/Amer1774.htm
 
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crazyfingers

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molder said:
July 6, 1775, the Continental Congress passed the Declaration of the Causes and Necessity of Taking Up Arms which included: With a humble confidence in the Mercies of the Supreme and impartial God and ruler of the universe, we most devoutly implore His divine goodness to protect us happily through this great conflict, and to dispose of our adversaries to reconciliation on reasonable terms, and thereby to relieve the empire from the calamities of civil war.
http://www.moralconcerns.org/past/Amer1774.htm

So what? The First Amendment didn't exist until 1791. For that matter there was no Constitution either or even the Articles of Confederation.

As a matter of fact, it would be an interesting exercise for you to compare the Articles of Confederation with the US Constitution. AoC are dripping with religiosity. There is none of that in the Constitution. It's clear that there was a sea change in terms of the use of religiosity that took place between the writing of the two documents.
 
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molder

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President Abraham Lincoln signed a proclamation appointing a National Fast Day on March 30, 1863. Here are the first two sentences of it:

Whereas, the Senate of the United States, devoutly recognizing the Supreme Authority and just Government of Almighty God, in all the affairs of men and of nations, has, by a resolution, requested the President to designate and set apart a day for National prayer and humiliation.

And whereas it is the duty of nations as well as of men, to own their dependence upon the overruling power of God, to confess their sins and transgressions, in humble sorrow, yet with assured hope that genuine repentance will lead to mercy and pardon; and to recognize the sublime truth, announced in the Holy Scriptures and proven by all history, that those nations only are blessed whose God is the Lord.

Would the ACLU consider Lincoln’s signing of the proclamation illegal considering he was a government official at the time?

http://showcase.netins.net/web/creative/lincoln/speeches/fast.htm
 
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crazyfingers

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molder said:
President Abraham Lincoln signed a proclamation appointing a National Fast Day on March 30, 1863. Here are the first two sentences of it:

Whereas, the Senate of the United States, devoutly recognizing the Supreme Authority and just Government of Almighty God, in all the affairs of men and of nations, has, by a resolution, requested the President to designate and set apart a day for National prayer and humiliation.

And whereas it is the duty of nations as well as of men, to own their dependence upon the overruling power of God, to confess their sins and transgressions, in humble sorrow, yet with assured hope that genuine repentance will lead to mercy and pardon; and to recognize the sublime truth, announced in the Holy Scriptures and proven by all history, that those nations only are blessed whose God is the Lord.

Would the ACLU consider Lincoln’s signing of the proclamation illegal considering he was a government official at the time?

http://showcase.netins.net/web/creative/lincoln/speeches/fast.htm


I don't know if the ACLU would or not. They have not to the best of my knowledge. From a practical point of view it's probably not a fight worth fighting.

However I'd note that James Madison, the Father of the Constitution and the First Amedendment frowned on religious proclamations and offical days of prayer on constitutional grounds as well as moral and practial grounds.

Religious proclamations by the Executive recommending thanksgivings & fasts are shoots from the same root with the legislative acts reviewed.

Altho' recommendations only, they imply a religious agency, making no part of the trust delegated to political rulers.

The objections to them are:

1. that Govts ought not to interpose in relation to those subject to their authority but in cases where they can do it with effect. An advisory Govt is a contradiction in terms.
2. The members of a Govt as such can in no sense, be regarded as possessing an advisory trust from their Constituents in their religious capacities. They cannot form an ecclesiastical Assembly, Convocation, Council, or Synod, and as such issue decrees or injunctions addressed to the faith or the Consciences of the people. In their individual capacities, as distinct from their official station, they might unite in recommendations of any sort whatever, in the same manner as any other individuals might do. But then their recommendations ought to express the true character from which they emanate.
3. They seem to imply and certainly nourish the erronious idea of a national religion. The idea just as it related to the Jewish nation under a theocracy, having been improperly adopted by so many nations which have embraced Xnity, is too apt to lurk in the bosoms even of Americans, who in general are aware of the distinction between religious & political societies. The idea also of a union of all to form one nation under one Govt in acts of devotion to the God of all is an imposing idea. But reason and the principles of the Xn religion require that all the individuals composing a nation even of the same precise creed & wished to unite in a universal act of religion at the same time, the union ought to be effected thro' the intervention of their religious not of their political representatives. In a nation composed of various sects, some alienated widely from others, and where no agreement could take place thro' the former, the interposition of the latter is doubly wrong:
_ James Madison, Detached Memoranda.

Is the appointment of Chaplains to the two Houses of Congress consistent with the Constitution, and with the pure principle of religious freedom? In strictness the answer on both points must be in the negative. The Constitution of the U. S. forbids everything like an establishment of a national religion. The law appointing Chaplains establishes a religious worship for the national representatives, to be performed by Ministers of religion, elected by a majority of them; and these are to be paid out of the national taxes. Does not this involve the principle of a national establishment, applicable to a provision for a religious worship for the Constituent as well as of the representative Body, approved by the majority, and conducted by Ministers of religion paid by the entire nation?

The establishment of the chaplainship to Congs is a palpable violation of equal rights, as well as of Constitutional principles: The tenets of the chaplains elected [by the majority shut the door of worship agst the members whose creeds & consciences forbid a participation in that of the majority. To say nothing of other sects, this is the case with that of Roman Catholics & Quakers who have always had members in one or both of the Legislative branches. Could a Catholic clergyman ever hope to be appointed a Chaplain! To say that his religious principles are obnoxious or that his sect is small, is to lift the evil at once and exhibit in its naked deformity the doctrine that religious truth is to be tested by numbers or that the major sects have a tight to govern the minor.

If Religion consist in voluntary acts of individuals, singly, or voluntarily associated, and it be proper that public functionaries, as well as their Constituents shd discharge their religious duties, let them like their Constituents, do so at their own expense. How small a contribution from each member of Cong wd suffice for the purpose! How just wd it be in its principle! How noble in its exemplary sacrifice to the genius of the Constitution; and the divine right of conscience! Why should the expence of a religious worship be allowed for the Legislature, be paid by the public, more than that for the Ex. or Judiciary branch of the Gov

Were the establishment to be tried by its fruits, are not the daily devotions conducted by these legal Ecclesiastics, already degenerating into a scanty attendance, and a tiresome formality!

Rather than let this step beyond the landmarks of power have the effect of a legitimate precedent, it will be better to apply to it the legal aphorism de minimis non curat lex: or to class it cum "maculis quas aut incuria fudit, aut humana parum cavit natura."

Better also to disarm in the same way, the precedent of Chaplainships for the army and navy, than erect them into a political authority in matters of religion. The object of this establishment is seducing; the motive to it is laudable. But is it not safer to adhere to a right principle, and trust to its consequences, than confide in the reasoning however specious in favor of a wrong one. Look thro' the armies & navies of the world, and say whether in the appointment of their ministers of religion, the spiritual interest of the flocks or the temporal interest of the Shepherds, be most in view: whether here, as elsewhere the political care of religion is not a nominal more than a real aid. If the spirit of armies be devout, the spirit out of the armies will never be Less so; and a failure of religious instruction &, exhortation from a voluntary source within or without, will rarely happen: if such be not the spirit of armies, the official services of their Teachers are not likely to produce it. It is more likely to flow from the labours of a spontaneous zeal. The armies of the Puritans had their appointed Chaplains; but without these there would have been no lack of public devotion in that devout age.

The case of navies with insulated crews may be less within the scope of these reflections. But it is not entirely so. The chance of a devout officer, might be of as much worth to religion, as the service of an ordinary chaplain. [were it admitted that religion has a real interest in the latter.] But we are always to keep in mind that it is safer to trust the consequences of a right principle, than reasonings in support of a bad one.
Same source as above.
 
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crazyfingers

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molder said:
July 6, 1775, the Continental Congress passed the Declaration of the Causes and Necessity of Taking Up Arms which included: With a humble confidence in the Mercies of the Supreme and impartial God and ruler of the universe, we most devoutly implore His divine goodness to protect us happily through this great conflict, and to dispose of our adversaries to reconciliation on reasonable terms, and thereby to relieve the empire from the calamities of civil war.
http://www.moralconcerns.org/past/Amer1774.htm

By the way, while it was not directed at you, you did quote me. Would you like to answer the question?

Do you think that that principle of separation between church and state as I described it is just or do you think that it's unjust?

Here it is again: The principle of separation between church and state is that government can not promote one religious idea over another religious idea or promote religion over non-religion or vice versa.

Is that just or unjust?
 
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Voegelin

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TeddyKGB said:
That's two fallacies. First, the state that enforces strict separation is not thereby engaging in socialistic governance. Second, the fact that Soviet socialism was explicitly separationist (anti-religion, to be truthful) does not make strict separation bad.

Just a coincidence that those suing to censor the free exercise of religion are socialists, eh?

I will grant you that was not always the case. Anti-Catholic Nativists and the Klu Klux Klan used to lead the charge. They are the ones who created Americans United for the Separation of Church and State.

But today Barry Lynn's group is no longer affiliated with the Klan. It is straight marxist ( I got suckered into joining years ago. In college, AUSCS was pitched as saving religion from government meddling. Only after I sent in my $20 bucks did I find out about the bigots who founded the group and the marxists who took it over).

"We carry on antireligious propaganda and will carry on propaganda against religious prejudices.... The party cannot be neutral with respect to religion, and it conducts antireligious propaganda against each and every religious prejudice because it stands for science and religious prejudice goes contrary to science, as all religion is somewhat contradictory to science.... The party cannot be neutral towards the disseminators of religious prejudices, the reactionary clergy who poison the minds of the laboring masses. Have we pressed the reactionary clergy? Yes, we have. The only unfortunate thing is that they have not yet been completely eliminated."
--Joseph Stalin
 
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molder

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crazyfingers said:
By the way, while it was not directed at you, you did quote me. Would you like to answer the question?

Do you think that that principle of separation between church and state as I described it is just or do you think that it's unjust?

Here it is again: The principle of separation between church and state is that government can not promote one religious idea over another religious idea or promote religion over non-religion or vice versa.

Is that just or unjust?
The words "separation", "church", and "state" do appear in the first amendment.
 
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crazyfingers

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molder said:
The words "separation", "church", and "state" do appear in the first amendment.

Oh please. The Establishment Clause and the Free Exercise Clause together mean separation between church and state.

That is LONG Established. It goes all the way back to Jefferson and Madison as being described as such.
 
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molder said:
The words "separation", "church", and "state" do appear in the first amendment.

The phrase "judicial activism" doesn't appear in the Constitution either, but that doesn't disqualify it from being a legitimate topic of debate. Edited to add: the absence of a prohibition against JA in the Constitution doesn't keep some people from screaming it as gospel.

Wait, I meant to say "discussion," not "debate," of course. :sorry:
 
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crazyfingers

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molder said:
The words "separation", "church", and "state" do appear in the first amendment.

Early use of the term

"Strongly guarded as is the separation between religion and & Gov't in the Constitution of the United States the danger of encroachment by Ecclesiastical Bodies, may be illustrated by precedents already furnished in their short history" (Detached Memoranda, circa 1820).

http://members.tripod.com/~candst/tnppage/qmadison.htm

"
The civil Government, though bereft of everything like an associated hierarchy, possesses the requisite stability, and performs its functions with complete success, whilst the number, the industry, and the morality of the priesthood, and the devotion of the people, have been manifestly increased by the total separation of the church from the State"
(Letter to Robert Walsh, Mar. 2, 1819).

The use of the term Separation between church and state goes back to Jefferson's 1804 letter to the Danbury Baptists.

Edit: the top two quotes are both James Madison
 
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TeddyKGB

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Voegelin said:
Just a coincidence that those suing to censor the free exercise of religion are socialists, eh?
In this case, I think the problem is that the far (religious) right has a definition of "free exercise" that borders on unconstitutional.
I will grant you that was not always the case. Anti-Catholic Nativists and the Klu Klux Klan used to lead the charge. They are the ones who created Americans United for the Separation of Church and State.
I find that hard to believe.
"We carry on antireligious propaganda and will carry on propaganda against religious prejudices.... The party cannot be neutral with respect to religion, and it conducts antireligious propaganda against each and every religious prejudice because it stands for science and religious prejudice goes contrary to science, as all religion is somewhat contradictory to science.... The party cannot be neutral towards the disseminators of religious prejudices, the reactionary clergy who poison the minds of the laboring masses. Have we pressed the reactionary clergy? Yes, we have. The only unfortunate thing is that they have not yet been completely eliminated."
--Joseph Stalin
Nothing like fighting what you call propaganda with propaganda of your own. Two wrongs, as we all know, make a right.
 
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Gramaic

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molder said:
The First Amendment was not written to protect the nonreligious from the religious, but to protect the religious people from government interference. This is quite opposite to what the ACLU is trying to make government do.

Exactly! Like I said in another thread, the ACLU is the one who's violating the First Amendment.
 
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crazyfingers

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Gramaic said:
Exactly! Like I said in another thread, the ACLU is the one who's violating the First Amendment.


Wrong. It has to go both ways. It's not possible for it to just be one way.

It is not possible to protect against government encroachment of religion without protecting against religion encroachment onto government. That is because if one religion starts to use government for its purposes, government will start to encroach upon other religions. Government will encroach upon someone's religious point of view if another religion is using that government for its own purposes.

Just being one way is impossible.
 
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I've said it before, I will say it again:

If this country had a majority religion that was Muslim, Buddhist, or any other religion except for Christianity, and they prayed to their gods exclusively before the meeting, you'd be uncomfortable.

If this country had a majority religion that was Muslim, Buddhist, or any other religion except for Christianity, and they refused to recognize Christian holidays or prayer needs like the muslim girl mentioned in this thread, you'd be angry.

If this country had a majority religion that was Muslim, Buddhist, or any other religion except for Christianity, and your schools and government insitutions endorsed their gods over Jesus Christ, you'd be enraged.

Step into the very shoes you are so quick to dismiss!

I find it appalling that we so quickly forget the conditions that early Christians, our religious forefathers and mothers, had to endure through. Through no representation, through persecution, and through religious discrimination. As a Christian, I wish to defend my neighbors, no matter what they believe, because at one time, no one defended my ancestors or Christian brothers and sisters. I want to treat them right, on a personal and community level, because that's what I've been taught as a Christian to do, lest the same discrimination happen upon me and my own religion!

We are targeted by the ACLU because we are the majority religion in this country now. And we most definitely know better than this. Treat others like you would like to be treated in case it changes.
 
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Polycarp1

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TwinCrier said:
So when attending a government sponsored event, whatever that means, one must forfit religious freedom at the door?

We had words last year and, I hope, became friends afterwards, so I hope you'll hear what I'm asking not as a slam but as a straight-up inquiry.

Why do you (and others who seem to think along the same lines) feel that it is a violation of your religious freedom to say that there ought not to be any mandated prayers, conducted officially, as a part of a government meeting or government-sponsored activity? Certainly you or I can pray (quietly, sotto voce) while present there. But the idea is that your or my, or the Mayor or Speaker of the House's, idea of what is a proper prayer is not something that you or I or he is privileged to impose on someone else who may disagree. That's part of the "no establishment of religion" clause. If I were a school teacher, I would have no more right to expect your kids to join me in an Episcopal liturgy than you would to expect mine to join you in a Baptist-specific prayer. And neither of us would be entitled to expect that of Melvin Goldbaum, who's preparing for his bar mitzvah. We each have the right to exercise our right to practice our faith, with no government action prohibiting it (except one that doesn't discriminate by content, but says, in effect, "Nobody can wear metal jewelry, whether religious or not" or "Nobody can drive a loudspeaker truck around between 9 PM and 8 AM, whether they're promoting a revival service, a car dealer's sale, or anything else" -- what's called "time, place, and manner" regulations). But none of us has the right to use a government position to promote our own faith on others. As someone said, "They'll never succeed in banning prayer in schools as long as they give surprise tests!" ;) And what's erroneously called a ban on school prayer is nothing of the sort: any student, faculty member, or staff has every right to pray while on school grounds and, subject to appropriate T/P/M exceptions, in classes and such. What was prohibited was school-prescribed mandatory prayers -- because they're an imposition on the kids' right to exercise their own faith, as taught them by their parents.

It truly bothers me when people see something like the ACLU case as taking away their own freedom of religion. All it's taking away is their freedom to require somebody else to believe and pray as they do. And that's a "freedom" that we fought to keep King George III or anybody else from having.
 
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Defensor Fidei

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Applea said:
I've said it before, I will say it again:

If this country had a majority religion that was Muslim, Buddhist, or any other religion except for Christianity, and they prayed to their gods exclusively before the meeting, you'd be uncomfortable.

If this country had a majority religion that was Muslim, Buddhist, or any other religion except for Christianity, and they refused to recognize Christian holidays or prayer needs like the muslim girl mentioned in this thread, you'd be angry.

If this country had a majority religion that was Muslim, Buddhist, or any other religion except for Christianity, and your schools and government insitutions endorsed their gods over Jesus Christ, you'd be enraged.
But God willed this country to be Christian. Mohammedans and Buddhists have plenty of their own countries where they can do as they wish. So ought Christians.

I find it appalling that we so quickly forget the conditions that early Christians, our religious forefathers and mothers, had to endure through.
It is exactly in keeping this in memory that we work to maintain the Faith over the land for all Christians to live and follow, not to allow others to take control and begin a power stuggle and persecution over again after all the bloodshed of ancestors.

We are targeted by the ACLU because we are the majority religion in this country now.
And we better get to work making sure it stays that way. The moment we have a Mohammedan majority, you can say goodbye to that constitution and any other freedoms you've been expecting. These other groups are Jihadists; they are here to conquer this country and other Western nations by taking advantage of our most unfortunate disease of liberalism.
 
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molder said:
The First Amendment was not written to protect the nonreligious from the religious, but to protect the religious people from government interference. This is quite opposite to what the ACLU is trying to make government do.
The First Amendment guarantees our right to practice whatever religion we want, and if that means "none," that's our right, too. However, you're overlooking the fact that protecting religious people from government interference is part of what the ACLU tries to do. There are plenty of us who are religious, and do not want our prayers and observances dictated to us by City Hall, or the school board, or any other government jurisdiction.
 
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