Council Conflicting, Take One

[Standing Up]

In the Garden, were many trees, and one was forbidden.

In the Exodus, the waters were bitter, but the LORD provided a specific tree (Ex. 15:25).

Moses was told to make the ark of gopher wood (Gen. 6:14).

Boards for the tabernalce were [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]tim wood (Ex. 26:15).

The point was instruction and discernment. It was not enough to simply build the ark or tabernacle from any tree or eat from any tree or purify the waters with any tree.

So, how does this apply to Christians?

The Council of Nicea has the Creed that Christians believe (I think it is part of being on CF in the first place).

But it also has this Canon 20, which is also from the same 318 fathers--
NPNF2-14. The Seven Ecumenical Councils | Christian Classics Ethereal Library

" Canon XX.
Forasmuch as there are certain persons who kneel on the Lord’s Day and in the days of Pentecost, therefore, to the intent that all things may be uniformly observed everywhere (in every parish), it seems good to the holy Synod that prayer be made to God standing.


Notes.
Ancient Epitome of Canon XX.
On Lord’s days and at Pentecost all must pray standing and not kneeling.

-snip-

Hefele.
All the churches did not, however, adopt this practice; for we see in the Acts of the Apostles (xx. 36 and xxi. 5) that St. Paul prayed kneeling during the time between Pentecost and Easter.
This canon is found in the Corpus Juris Canonici. Decretum, Pars III, De Conc. Dist. III. c. x. "

Good trees and bad trees growing together. Wheat and tares, so to speak.

Setting up conflicts instead of solving them.

Will one follow Scripture or the Council here? If one follows Scripture here, it does not mean necessarily that one rejects the remainder of the Council.

What is your plumbline?

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

And the ark was made of acacia wood, what's your point?


Exod 25:9 Make this tabernacle and all its furnishings exactly like the pattern I will show you.

The Ark

10 "Have them make a chest of acacia wood—two and a half cubits long, a cubit and a half wide, and a cubit and a half high. 11 Overlay it with pure gold, both inside and out, and make a gold molding around it. 12 Cast four gold rings for it and fasten them to its four feet, with two rings on one side and two rings on the other. 13 Then make poles of acacia wood and overlay them with gold.

 

[Standing Up]

And the ark was made of acacia wood, what's your point?

Don't stop reading after the first four sentences

SUP: The point was instruction and discernment. It was not enough to simply build the ark or tabernacle from any tree or eat from any tree or purify the waters with any tree.

So, how does this apply to Christians?

The Council of Nicea has the Creed that Christians believe (I think it is part of being on CF in the first place).

But it also has this Canon 20, which is also from the same 318 fathers--
NPNF2-14. The Seven Ecumenical Councils | Christian Classics Ethereal Library

" Canon XX.
Forasmuch as there are certain persons who kneel on the Lord’s Day and in the days of Pentecost, therefore, to the intent that all things may be uniformly observed everywhere (in every parish), it seems good to the holy Synod that prayer be made to God standing.


Notes.
Ancient Epitome of Canon XX.
On Lord’s days and at Pentecost all must pray standing and not kneeling.

-snip-

Hefele.
All the churches did not, however, adopt this practice; for we see in the Acts of the Apostles (xx. 36 and xxi. 5) that St. Paul prayed kneeling during the time between Pentecost and Easter.
This canon is found in the Corpus Juris Canonici. Decretum, Pars III, De Conc. Dist. III. c. x. "

Good trees and bad trees growing together. Wheat and tares, so to speak.

Setting up conflicts instead of solving them.

Will one follow Scripture or the Council here? If one follows Scripture here, it does not mean necessarily that one rejects the remainder of the Council.

What is your plumbline?

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Don't stop reading after the first four sentences

SUP: The point was instruction and discernment. It was not enough to simply build the ark or tabernacle from any tree or eat from any tree or purify the waters with any tree.

So, how does this apply to Christians?

The Council of Nicea has the Creed that Christians believe (I think it is part of being on CF in the first place).

But it also has this Canon 20, which is also from the same 318 fathers--
NPNF2-14. The Seven Ecumenical Councils | Christian Classics Ethereal Library

" Canon XX.
Forasmuch as there are certain persons who kneel on the Lord’s Day and in the days of Pentecost, therefore, to the intent that all things may be uniformly observed everywhere (in every parish), it seems good to the holy Synod that prayer be made to God standing.


Notes.
Ancient Epitome of Canon XX.
On Lord’s days and at Pentecost all must pray standing and not kneeling.

-snip-

Hefele.
All the churches did not, however, adopt this practice; for we see in the Acts of the Apostles (xx. 36 and xxi. 5) that St. Paul prayed kneeling during the time between Pentecost and Easter.
This canon is found in the Corpus Juris Canonici. Decretum, Pars III, De Conc. Dist. III. c. x. "

Good trees and bad trees growing together. Wheat and tares, so to speak.

Setting up conflicts instead of solving them.

Will one follow Scripture or the Council here? If one follows Scripture here, it does not mean necessarily that one rejects the remainder of the Council.

What is your plumbline?

The original for the sabbath was not to leave their tent.


Exod 16:29 Bear in mind that the LORD has given you the Sabbath; that is why on the sixth day he gives you bread for two days. Everyone is to stay where he is on the seventh day; no one is to go out."

But Jesus said the Lord's day was made for mankind not mankind for the sabbath.

 

[tulc]

Wait...is the question should we pray standing up or kneeling or is it do we obey scriptures or Church Councils?
tulc(likes to understand the question before trying to answer)

 

[ebia]

I'm guessing he's trying to set up both as absolute in tension in order to discredit the councils, presumably leading on to some further point.

Of course that's now how the council is working. Rather it is saying that there are multiple valid postures for praying but that is advantage in the whole church adopting one style for public liturgical worship on particular days from 'now' onwards. That's not in conflict with Paul having adopted a different posture in Acts during semi-private prayer sessions.

The stuff about wood is completely irrelevant - particularly since each example is a one-off event, not an event to be constantly repeated.

 

[Standing Up]

The original for the sabbath was not to leave their tent.


Exod 16:29 Bear in mind that the LORD has given you the Sabbath; that is why on the sixth day he gives you bread for two days. Everyone is to stay where he is on the seventh day; no one is to go out."

But Jesus said the Lord's day was made for mankind not mankind for the sabbath.

Sabbath

Forget the wood example


Council---- the council decreed one thing--- pray standing up during the days of Pentecost.

Paul, and presumably the rest of the Christians in Acts, prayed kneeling during that time.

Many Christians groups believe that the councils are equivalent to God's Word (Scripture).

 

[Standing Up]

Wait...is the question should we pray standing up or kneeling or is it do we obey scriptures or Church Councils?
tulc(likes to understand the question before trying to answer)

Right. That's the conflict.

The Council said X. The Scriptures say Y. What is a Christian to do?

 

[Standing Up]

I'm guessing he's trying to set up both as absolute in tension in order to discredit the councils, presumably leading on to some further point.

You should read too . I said the Council came up with the perfectly fine Creed.

Of course that's now how the council is working. Rather it is saying that there are multiple valid postures for praying but that is advantage in the whole church adopting one style for public liturgical worship on particular days from 'now' onwards. That's not in conflict with Paul having adopted a different posture in Acts during semi-private prayer sessions.

Paul and the other Christians adopted a different posture. Now the Council comes along and tells everyone to do it differently.

One has to wonder. Why didn't the Council simply align themselves with how things were done in Scripture? Why the need to "brow beat" different styles of prayer or liturgy? Who was doing it and who wasn't? Why did they feel the need to assert such power as to tell people the conflicting mode of worship?

Hefele.
All the churches did not, however, adopt this practice; for we see in the Acts of the Apostles (xx. 36 and xxi. 5) that St. Paul prayed kneeling during the time between Pentecost and Easter.

As Hefele points out though, the Council did not have authority over all the Churches at that time.

 

[ebia]

Paul and the other Christians adopted a different posture. Now the Council comes along and tells everyone to do it differently.

And?

The council didn't say that anyone who had done otherwise in the past wrong.

One has to wonder. Why didn't the Council simply align themselves with how things were done in Scripture?

Scripture doesn't deal with situation being answered by the council because that situation had not developed until after the close of the New Testament period.

Why the need to "brow beat" different styles of prayer or liturgy? Who was doing it and who wasn't? Why did they feel the need to assert such power as to tell people the conflicting mode of worship?

You assume one side of the story by using words like "brow beat" and "assert power". There is value in common worship as well as allowing for diversity.

Hefele.

All the churches did not, however, adopt this practice; for we see in the Acts of the Apostles (xx. 36 and xxi. 5) that St. Paul prayed kneeling during the time between Pentecost and Easter.

As Hefele points out though, the Council did not have authority over all the Churches at that time.

What? How could Paul obey a command that wouldn't be issued until hundreds of years later and wouldn't apply to his situation anyway (neither Acts 20:36 nor 21:5 are formal public liturgies, which is what the council is dealing with - they are semi-private instances of informal group prayer.)

 

[ebia]

Right. That's the conflict.

The Council said X. The Scriptures say Y. What is a Christian to do?

You've simplified to the point of no longer being true to what is going on.

Scripture gives a 1st century example of Paul kneeling in private prayer.

A much later council says "from now on it would be good for all to stand during public worship."

Those two are not in conflict.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

The reason you don't understand these councils is because they were not in your Church training... your catechumenate.

You may as well go back to the very first council and figure out why they decided to not to ask the adult gentiles to circumcise themselves?

Councils are run by concensus.

The results are sent out to all the Churches not present at council.

The result are rejected or ratified by each individual Church which is also led by concensus.

Each member has the opportunity to pronounce something (or someone) AXIOS!... likewise they can with-hold their statement of agreement.

When All of The Churches agree upon something then it is called an ECUMENICAL council. According to The Orthodox Churches, this is validation that The Holy Spirit is in agreement.

Any other council is only a local council, and it's declarations are only local. No council can be forced upon The Church. It must be accepted or rejected.

THERE HAVE BEEN LOTS OF REJECTS.

Of all the councils, the Orthodox Churches of the world only recognize seven as having been Ecumenical.

One does not call an Ecumenical council. A council becomes Ecumenical.

There is never a point, at any time, when there is only one Bishop in charge. And nobody can just "CALL" an Ecumenical council, such as Rome would have us to believe. That in itself changes the definition of what is meant by Ecumenical... It is a lie, an untruth and anti-Gospel.

Your earlier example (another thead) of what Victor, Bishop of Rome, did in attempting to excommunicate whole Churces is a prime example. There is no Bishop who has such an authority.

I am certain that member of The Church of Rome see it differently. But for what it's worth... that the Orthodox position.

BTW ~ We have always, and will continue to always, stand for worship. We bow before the Eucharist on days other than Sunday... and especially during the great fast...

Forgive me...

 

[E.C.]

So, how does this apply to Christians?

The Council of Nicea has the Creed that Christians believe (I think it is part of being on CF in the first place).

But it also has this Canon 20, which is also from the same 318 fathers--
NPNF2-14. The Seven Ecumenical Councils | Christian Classics Ethereal Library

" Canon XX.
Forasmuch as there are certain persons who kneel on the Lord’s Day and in the days of Pentecost, therefore, to the intent that all things may be uniformly observed everywhere (in every parish), it seems good to the holy Synod that prayer be made to God standing.


Notes.
Ancient Epitome of Canon XX.
On Lord’s days and at Pentecost all must pray standing and not kneeling.

-snip-

Hefele.
All the churches did not, however, adopt this practice; for we see in the Acts of the Apostles (xx. 36 and xxi. 5) that St. Paul prayed kneeling during the time between Pentecost and Easter.
This canon is found in the Corpus Juris Canonici. Decretum, Pars III, De Conc. Dist. III. c. x. "

Good trees and bad trees growing together. Wheat and tares, so to speak.

Setting up conflicts instead of solving them.

Will one follow Scripture or the Council here? If one follows Scripture here, it does not mean necessarily that one rejects the remainder of the Council.

What is your plumbline?

The Council of Nicaea was convened in 325. St. Paul was martyred around 67 AD.

One must consider practicalities with some things. The Liturgy in St. Paul's time lasted six hours. The Liturgy around the time of Nicaea lasted four.

Every year the evening of Pentecost, we have what is called Kneeling Vespers where we have Vespers, evening prayer, but we kneel the whole time. Try kneeling for forty-five minutes and then for four hours, then come back to CF and let us know the results.

Wait...is the question should we pray standing up or kneeling or is it do we obey scriptures or Church Councils?
tulc(likes to understand the question before trying to answer)

Tulc!

Been a while, how have you been?

I think another question just as good is also does the canon deal with inside the church and during Liturgy, or during one's private prayers at the home?

An even greater question is is the OP discussing kneeling during Liturgy which is worshiping as a community and a collective whole Church or private worshiping at home?

 

[Standing Up]

You've simplified to the point of no longer being true to what is going on.

Scripture gives a 1st century example of Paul kneeling in private prayer.

A much later council says "from now on it would be good for all to stand during public worship."

Those two are not in conflict.

Forasmuch as there are certain persons who kneel on the Lord’s Day and in the days of Pentecost, therefore, to the intent that all things may be uniformly observed everywhere (in every parish), it seems good to the holy Synod that prayer be made to God standing.

325ad. People knelt, people stood. In Acts, people knelt, (presumably Paul would not be the only one).

Why would the Council look at that, people knelt and people stood, and decide against Scripture?

 

[Standing Up]

The Council of Nicaea was convened in 325. St. Paul was martyred around 67 AD.

One must consider practicalities with some things. The Liturgy in St. Paul's time lasted six hours. The Liturgy around the time of Nicaea lasted four.

Folks falling out of windows; can't have that.

As I said, though, it says "there are" folks kneeling and folks standing. Why did the Council decide against Scripture example? They could have agreed with Scripture and with those folks who knelt.

(Why it matters anyway, or is this a face east or west question?)

 

[ebia]

Forasmuch as there are certain persons who kneel on the Lord’s Day and in the days of Pentecost, therefore, to the intent that all things may be uniformly observed everywhere (in every parish), it seems good to the holy Synod that prayer be made to God standing.

325ad. People knelt, people stood. In Acts, people knelt, (presumably Paul would not be the only one).

Why would the Council look at that, people knelt and people stood, and decide against Scripture?

It's not "against scripture" because (among other reasons) the scripture you quote is an example of informal "private prayer" and the council is talking about formal public worship. They are apples and oranges. The council is not talking about informal, impromptu, sessions of prayer.

 

[Standing Up]

Forasmuch as there are certain persons who kneel on the Lord’s Day and in the days of Pentecost, therefore, to the intent that all things may be uniformly observed everywhere (in every parish), it seems good to the holy Synod that prayer be made to God standing.

Whatever happend to it seems good to the Holy Spirit and to us ...

 

[Standing Up]

It's not "against scripture" because (among other reasons) the scripture you quote is an example of informal "private prayer" and the council is talking about formal public worship. They are apples and oranges. The council is not talking about informal, impromptu, sessions of prayer.

Formal public worship, like kneeling down apparently by the ship yard?

Besides, where is your dichotomy?

Forasmuch as there are certain persons who kneel on the Lord’s Day and in the days of Pentecost, therefore, to the intent that all things may be uniformly observed everywhere (in every parish), it seems good to the holy Synod that prayer be made to God standing.

Don't see any reference to public or private worship.

But, are you thinking that there is an implied building there? If so, do you think that is the Church?

 

[ebia]

Formal public worship, like kneeling down apparently by the ship yard?

A group of friends praying a good-bye is not the same thing as the formal liturgy.

Besides, where is your dichotomy?

If you cannot recognise the difference between the formal celebration of the liturgy in the 4th century and an improptu farewell prayer in the first you haven't the background to read the Councils.

Forasmuch as there are certain persons who kneel on the Lord’s Day and in the days of Pentecost, therefore, to the intent that all things may be uniformly observed everywhere (in every parish), it seems good to the holy Synod that prayer be made to God standing.

Don't see any reference to public or private worship.

It's implicit that the council is addressing public worship, not all private prayer. If you really think the council is saying that all prayer must be said standing then that misreading is half your problem; that's not the kind of thing councils generally worry about addressing nor the way they should be read.

But, are you thinking that there is an implied building there?

Where on earth do you get that from.

 

[Standing Up]

If you cannot recognise the difference between the formal celebration of the liturgy in the 4th century and an improptu farewell prayer in the first you haven't the background to read the Councils.

Nor could Hefele.

It's implicit that the council is addressing public worship, not all private prayer. If you really think the council is saying that all prayer must be said standing then that misreading is half your problem; that's not the kind of thing councils generally worry about addressing nor the way they should be read.

No, you're assuming that. I'm just going on what they said. One more time:

"On Lord’s days and at Pentecost all must pray standing and not kneeling."

It is obvious that things changed, but what didn't change was that men got together and prayed. In 325ad some knelt some stood. The Council tells us that. It doesn't say whether formally or informally. Then it says, that the Council decided that all should stand. It seemed good to them.

When James wrote, it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and us. Scripture shows men kneeling at the time.

It shouldn't matter, but why go against the example from Scripture?