Islam Contradiction in the Quran

[Niblo]

Hi Paul
Thanks for the information was most informative.
With regard to the above quote, I understand this and agree. However it does not give any assurance that Allah will not change his mind. He has in the past thus to me there is no security in any promises he makes, in fact as seen in the rule of abrogation.

Thus the Qua-ran changes and in changing contradicts its self for supposedly something better. Thus is not a reliable document.

Regards Doug

Hello again, Doug.

‘Today I have perfected your religion for you, completed My blessing upon you, and chosen as your religion Islam.’ (Al-Ma’ida: 3).

Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla) is not as we are; we who change our minds on a whim; or because we lack the foresight to see what is coming. He is constant...the Rock of Ages. Were it otherwise then all would be lost, and our devotion to Him nothing but vanity and a 'chasing after wind'. I cannot think of a single promise that He has broken. Please enlighten me.

The Qur’an is fixed, and can never change. We change. It does not.

I've explained how abrogation works, and have no more to add.

Have a great weekend, and very best regards.

Paul

 

[Truth light]

Does God of the bible change His Mind?

 

[Muslim-UK]

Does God of the bible change His Mind?

as salamu alaikum, The Jews were told GOD is ahad and has no partners. Christians claim Jesus pbuh is his Begotten Son, and the Holy Spirit, (who I'm sure the Jews likely view to be Angel Gabriel as we Muslims believe) is the third in the Christian Godhead. God went from echad to trihad without telling his chosen people. Then if you read the NT, God changes his mind in various places. For example Jesus peace be upon him says, keep the commandments, worship the echad God of the Torah and do good works. Paul says no just believe in his death and resurrection. Clearly God changes his mind in various places depending on the narrator.

 

[DWA2DAY]

Hello again, Doug.

‘Today I have perfected your religion for you, completed My blessing upon you, and chosen as your religion Islam.’ (Al-Ma’ida: 3).

Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla) is not as we are; we who change our minds on a whim; or because we lack the foresight to see what is coming. He is constant...the Rock of Ages. Were it otherwise then all would be lost, and our devotion to Him nothing but vanity and a 'chasing after wind'. I cannot think of a single promise that He has broken. Please enlighten me.

The Qur’an is fixed, and can never change. We change. It does not.

I've explained how abrogation works, and have no more to add.

Have a great weekend, and very best regards.

Paul

Hi Paul
I fully understand that Allah is seen a true deity from a Muslim perspective, yet that simply avoids answer the question.

Thus if this is the case one has to accept the Quran is not reliable as you claim. I close with surah 10:94 which show even Mohammed had doubts concerning the revelation of the Quran.

Thank you and enjoy the weekend too.

Regards Doug

 

[DWA2DAY]

Does God of the bible change His Mind?

You have made no comment on your link, it is therefore pointless and forms no basis for dialog.

 

[DWA2DAY]

as salamu alaikum, The Jews were told GOD is ahad and has no partners. Christians claim Jesus pbuh is his Begotten Son, and the Holy Spirit, (who I'm sure the Jews likely view to be Angel Gabriel as we Muslims believe) is the third in the Christian Godhead. God went from echad to trihad without telling his chosen people. Then if you read the NT, God changes his mind in various places. For example Jesus peace be upon him says, keep the commandments, worship the echad God of the Torah and do good works. Paul says no just believe in his death and resurrection. Clearly God changes his mind in various places depending on the narrator.

Please give bible reference to show your case. Or do we simply accept you are once again making outrageous claims that are an insult to to Islam.

Keep in mind that the standard of critique used will be the same standard to measure the Quran.

 

[Niblo]

Hi Paul
I fully understand that Allah is seen a true deity from a Muslim perspective, yet that simply avoids answer the question.

Thus if this is the case one has to accept the Quran is not reliable as you claim. I close with surah 10:94 which show even Mohammed had doubts concerning the revelation of the Quran.

Thank you and enjoy the weekend too.

Regards Doug

Hi Doug.

‘We settled the Children of Israel in a good place and provided good things as sustenance for them. It was only after knowledge had come to them that they began to differ among themselves. Your Lord will judge between them on the Day of Resurrection regarding their differences.

‘So if you (Prophet) are in doubt about what We have revealed to you, ask those who have been reading the scriptures before you. The Truth has come to you from your Lord, so be in no doubt and do not deny Allāh’s signs - then you would become one of the losers. Those against whom your Lord’s sentence is passed will not believe, even if every sign comes to them, until they see the agonizing torment. If only a single town had believed and benefited from its belief! Only Jonah’s people did so, and when they believed, We relieved them of the punishment of disgrace in the life of this world, and let them enjoy life for a time. Had your Lord willed, all the people on earth would have believed. So can you (Prophet) compel people to believe? No soul can believe except by Allāh’s will, and He brings disgrace on those who do not use their reason. Say: “Look at what is in the heavens and on the earth.” But what use are signs and warnings to people who will not believe? What are they waiting for but the punishment that came to those before them? Say: “Wait then, I am waiting too.” In the end We shall save Our messengers and the believers. We take it upon Ourself to save the believers.

‘(Prophet) say: “People, even if you are in doubt about my religion, I do not worship those you worship other than Allāh, but I worship Allāh who will cause you to die, and I am commanded to be a believer.” (Prophet), set your face towards religion as a man of pure faith. Do not be one of those who join partners with Allāh; do not pray to any other that can neither benefit nor harm you: if you do, you will be one of the evildoers. If Allāh inflicts harm on you, no one can remove it but Him, and if He intends good for you, no one can turn His bounty away; He grants His bounty to any of His servants He will. He is the Most Forgiving, the Most Merciful. Say: “People, the Truth has come to you from your Lord. Whoever follows the right path follows it for his own good, and whoever strays does so to his own loss: I am not your guardian.” (Prophet), follow what is being revealed to you, and be steadfast until Allāh gives His judgement, for He is the Best of Judges.’ (Yunus: 93-109).

Yunus is an early Surah. What we see in these verses is Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla) reassuring a humble man who is coming to terms with his prophethood.

Regards.

Paul

 

[Muslim-UK]

‘We settled the Children of Israel in a good place and provided good things as sustenance for them. It was only after knowledge had come to them that they began to differ among themselves. Your Lord will judge between them on the Day of Resurrection regarding their differences.

Masha'Allah Paul, using Qur'an and Hadith to explain your points. I need to take a leaf out of your book and commend you for your patience.

 

[Muslim-UK]

Please give bible reference to show your case. Or do we simply accept you are once again making outrageous claims that are an insult to to Islam.

I'm sure you are aware the Jews deny God has a Son, and as for people preaching their own theology in the bible just have a look at various threads on this board within the Christianty section. Here's one example: Is Paul the one James calls "the spouter of lies" in the dead sea scrolls?

 

[DWA2DAY]

Yunus is an early Surah. What we see in these verses is Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla) reassuring a humble man who is coming to terms with his prophethood.

Hi Paul.
Therefore you have proved my point, since your explanation is contrary to what the Tafsir explanation of the passage.

"So if you O Muhammad s are in doubt concerning what We have revealed to you of stories — hypothetically speaking — then question those who read the Scripture the Torah before you for it is confirmed therein with them and they can inform you of its truth." Altafsir.com - The Tafsirs - التفاسير

You see Muslims say the the Quran is unchanged and not corruptible. To ensure this there are chains of reference in the Haddeth and scholarly writing of interpretation yet it seem to me the Quran evolves and take on a new position every time Islams back is against the wall.

Another example is the recitation of the daughter of Allah, which Allah changed on the basis that this recitation was wrong and was from Satan. Thus by accepting the change in your faith I question what else was inspired by Satan.

Do you see the inconsistency I see in the Quran and Islamic teachings.

Regards Doug

 

[DWA2DAY]

I'm sure you are aware the Jews deny God has a Son, and as for people preaching their own theology in the bible just have a look at various threads on this board within the Christianty section. Here's one example: Is Paul the one James calls "the spouter of lies" in the dead sea scrolls?

Ok so thus you have no reference to support your idiotic claims. It seems to me you also can not think for yourself as all you have are a list on links and no substance in your argument. Shame on you,

Regards Doug

 

[Truth light]

Another example is the recitation of the daughter of Allah, which Allah changed on the basis that this recitation was wrong and was from Satan. Thus by accepting the change in your faith I question what else was inspired by Satan.

If you are referring to al-Gharaniq al-Ula, It's a fabricated story.

 

[DWA2DAY]

If you are referring to al-Gharaniq al-Ula, It's a fabricated story.

there are not 2, 4, 8, or 16 independent Islamic transmission but 30 that say otherwise. Story of the Cranes (al-Gharaniq) “The Satanic Verses” — As-Sunnah Foundation of America

Therefore your response claiming the Satanic Verses are a fabrication is simply seen as your denial of the truth and inconsistent with Islamic standards of authentication and historical record.

This then asks the question what else in the Quran do Muslims claim is false or self proclaimed revelations to fit Mohammed's personal desires and not truly from Allah or in this case Satan.

Regards Doug

 

[Truth light]

there are not 2, 4, 8, or 16 independent Islamic transmission but 30 that say otherwise. Story of the Cranes (al-Gharaniq) “The Satanic Verses” — As-Sunnah Foundation of America

Therefore your response claiming the Satanic Verses are a fabrication is simply seen as your denial of the truth and inconsistent with Islamic standards of authentication and historical record.

This then asks the question what else in the Quran do Muslims claim is false or self proclaimed revelations to fit Mohammed's personal desires and not truly from Allah or in this case Satan.
Regards Doug

I've seen this before and It's against most reputable scolars of Islam. Satan’s coming to whisper Prophet صلى الله عليه و سلم doesn’t make sense if analyse the situation contextually, i.e. the context of the ayaat Prophet صلى الله عليه و سلم was reciting. Allah سبحانه و تعالى was ridiculing the mushrikin by saying,

Then which of the Graces of your Lord (O man!) will you doubt. This (Muhammad SAW) is a warner (Messenger) of the (series of) warners (Messengers) of old. The Day of Resurrection draws near; none besides Allah can avert it, (or advance it, or delay it). Do you then wonder at this recital (the Quran)? And you laugh at it and weep not, wasting your (precious) lifetime in pastime and amusements (singing, etc.). So fall you down in prostration to Allah, and worship Him (Alone). {Surah an-Najm, ayaat 55-62}
If Allah سبحانه و تعالى was questioning the mushrikin about their wonderment regarding the Qur’an and telling them that they are wasting their lives, then how can this 3 false god issue occur? It doesn’t make sense to say the least. It's a fabrication.

 

[Muslim-UK]

Hi Paul.
Therefore you have proved my point, since your explanation is contrary to what the Tafsir explanation of the passage.

"So if you O Muhammad s are in doubt concerning what We have revealed to you of stories — hypothetically speaking — then question those who read the Scripture the Torah before you for it is confirmed therein with them and they can inform you of its truth." Altafsir.com - The Tafsirs - التفاسير

How does this contradict what Paul stated? Muhammad pbuh is being humble and told to ask the people of the book for confirmation. Confirmation of what? Well that's easy if you read from verse 90.

 

[DWA2DAY]

I've seen this before and It's against most reputable scolars of Islam. Satan’s coming to whisper Prophet صلى الله عليه و سلم doesn’t make sense if analyse the situation contextually, i.e. the context of the ayaat Prophet صلى الله عليه و سلم was reciting. Allah سبحانه و تعالى was ridiculing the mushrikin by saying,

Then which of the Graces of your Lord (O man!) will you doubt. This (Muhammad SAW) is a warner (Messenger) of the (series of) warners (Messengers) of old. The Day of Resurrection draws near; none besides Allah can avert it, (or advance it, or delay it). Do you then wonder at this recital (the Quran)? And you laugh at it and weep not, wasting your (precious) lifetime in pastime and amusements (singing, etc.). So fall you down in prostration to Allah, and worship Him (Alone). {Surah an-Najm, ayaat 55-62}
If Allah سبحانه و تعالى was questioning the mushrikin about their wonderment regarding the Qur’an and telling them that they are wasting their lives, then how can this 3 false god issue occur? It doesn’t make sense to say the least. It's a fabrication.

I am sure it is against most scholars and that my point. The transmissions are there and a problem to Islam.
Your excuse that it is as a fabrication does not make it go away, just adds to the grey areas of the Quran and one if one accept your fabrication explanation, I now question Mohammed possibly fabricated other Surahs?

The fact is there are 30 Islamic transitions that say it happened. Were there is smoke there is fire. When seen against the back drop of other dependencies it offers little support for a good foundation of faith.

Regards Doug

 

[DWA2DAY]

How does this contradict what Paul stated? Muhammad pbuh is being humble and told to ask the people of the book for confirmation. Confirmation of what? Well that's easy if you read from verse 90.

If you read the post and follow the conversation you will understand.

 

[Truth light]

I am sure it is against most scholars and that my point. The transmissions are there and a problem to Islam.
Your excuse that it is as a fabrication does not make it go away, just adds to the grey areas of the Quran and one if one accept your fabrication explanation, I now question Mohammed possibly fabricated other Surahs?

The fact is there are 30 Islamic transitions that say it happened. Were there is smoke there is fire. When seen against the back drop of other dependencies it offers little support for a good foundation of faith.

Regards Doug

Those "satanic narrations" were never included in any mushaf, unlike those fabricated verses that were included in the bible.

 

[DWA2DAY]

Those "satanic narrations" were never included in any mushaf, unlike those fabricated verses that were included in the bible.

You again are missing the point I wish to make by trying to shift the focus of the discussion to the Bible. does it not concern you that 30 people close to Mohammed heard him recite this surah. Then go and change it say it was from Satan.
Does it not concern you that Islam has borrowed pagan practices into its religion, like kissing the black stone.
You see fabricated a mistake or how ever you choose explain the problem away, it is about be honest with yourself. Why it is your salvation on the line, not mine.
Re the Quran or Mushaf. Is your argument now that the Mushaf is a more important source as a holy book than the Quran. Are we now throwing away the Quran because you do not like what it says?
You want to discuss the so called fabrications in the bible sure we can. but what ever standard you choose to apply in your argument we agree we can apply the same standard in the Analysis of the Quran.

Regards Doug

 

[Limo]

Edited as I forgot one claim

I am starting this thread in response to a challenge by Limo who claims there are no contradictions in the Quran.

Hi Doug,
I'm sorry for the delay.
Unfortunately, I can say with evidences that you didn't pay acceptable effort to verify what you're claiming here. You're just copying and pasting without having a quick look to Quran. you've wrongly copied and pasted the verses references as follows:

• Surah 7:54 not 7:45
• Surah 38:71-73 not 38:9-12
• Surah 18:50 not 18:20

My understanding is that Muslims believe that the Quran is:-

A) Complete and free of errors: - Surah 4:28, 18:1, 6:38, 12:111, 16:38, and 39:23.
B) It has never been change or corrupted: - Surah 41:42.

I would like to discuss five areas that come to mind.

Yes we believe in the above 2 points.

Creation: Surah 41:9-12 say eight days, while Surahs 7:54 & 32:4 claim six.

Looks like you didn't read Quran, you've just copied and pasted this claim.
I've listed the verses here and highlighted in red the concerned words.
But first Allah never said eight days at all, eight days is coming from a false interpretation

• 41:9-12
  • Say (O Muhammad SAW): "Do you verily disbelieve in Him Who created the earth in two Days and you set up rivals (in worship) with Him? That is the Lord of the 'Alamin (mankind, jinns and all that exists).
    He placed therein (i.e. the earth) firm mountains from above it, and He blessed it, and measured therein its sustenance (for its dwellers) in four Days equal (i.e. all these four 'days' were equal in the length of time), for all those who ask (about its creation).
    Then He Istawa (rose over) towards the heaven when it was smoke, and said to it and to the earth: "Come both of you willingly or unwillingly." They both said: "We come, willingly."
    Then He completed and finished from their creation (as) seven heavens in two Days and He made in each heaven its affair. And We adorned the nearest (lowest) heaven with lamps (stars) to be an adornment as well as to guard (from the devils by using them as missiles against the devils). Such is the Decree of Him the All-Mighty, the All-Knower.
• It's Surah 7:54 not 7:45
  • Indeed your Lord is Allah, Who created the heavens and the earth in Six Days, and then He Istawa (rose over) the Throne (really in a manner that suits His Majesty). He brings the night as a cover over the day, seeking it rapidly, and (He created) the sun, the moon, the stars subjected to His Command. Surely, His is the Creation and Commandment. Blessed be Allah, the Lord of the 'Alamin (mankind, jinns and all that exists)!
• 32:4
  • Allah it is He Who has created the heavens and the earth, and all that is between them in six Days. Then He Istawa (rose over) the Throne (in a manner that suits His Majesty). You (mankind) have none, besides Him, as a Wali (protector or helper etc.) or an intercessor. Will you not then remember (or be admonished)?

Let us summarize the facts:

1. Allah created the earth in 2 days
2. Allah placed firm mountains , blessed, and measured therein its sustenance in four days
   • Placing the firm mountain is part of the creation of earth
   • Allah is saying about the creation of earth , blessing, measuring its sustenance is done in total of 4 days
3. Allah created heaven in 2 days
4. Total is 6 days as follows:
   1. Creation of earth is in 2 days
   2. Blessing and measuring its sustenance is in 2 days
      • Subtotal of Earth, blessing, and measuring its sustenance is in 4 days
   3. Heaven in 2 days

Satan: Surah 38:9-12 claim Satan is an angel while Surah 18:20 say he is a Jinns (Spirit)

Again bad copy and past, next time open the Quran and read it yourself.

• It's Surah 38:71-73 not 38:9-12:
  • [So mention] when your Lord said to the angels, "Indeed, I am going to create a human being from clay. So when I have fashioned him and breathed into him (his) soul created by Me, then you fall down prostrate to him."So the angels prostrated themselves, all of them//////////------//////////
    Except Iblis (Satan) he was proud and was one of the disbelievers.
• it's Surah 18:50 not 18:20
  • And (remember) when We said to the angels; "Prostrate to Adam." So they prostrated////-///// except Iblis (Satan). He was one of the jinns; he disobeyed the Command of his Lord. Will you then take him (Iblis) and his offspring as protectors and helpers rather than Me while they are enemies to you? What an evil is the exchange for the Zalimun (polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc).

Facts :

1. Allah is talking about 2 different types of creatures angels and jinns
2. Allah asked Angels to prostrate, They have done all of them
3. Another creature who is a jinns didn't do

There is nothing says in either verses or in any verse in Quran says that Satan is an angel.

How was the Quran revealed? Surahs 6:19 and 145 claims it is by inspiration while Surah 2:97 says it was handed down by Archangel Gabriel.

• Surah 6:19
  • .....this Qur'an was revealed to me....
• Surah 6:145
  • ....was revealed to me....
• Surah 2:97
  • Say, "Whoever is an enemy to Gabriel - it is [none but] he who has brought the Qur'an down upon your heart

Facts :

• Quran was revealed not inspired
• "Was revealed " in Surah 6 is in passive speech
  
• Quran was revealed via Gabriel as per Surah 2:97

Where is the contradiction ?

Here is my favorite
Can Allah words be changed? 10:64 and 6:34,115 say they cannot but we read in Surah 2:106 that Allah cancel words and then replaces them with better ones.

Who does the change in Prophet's life ?
Allah who said the words himself. Quran was revealed in chunks not one time depending to answer some questions to address some situations.
Nobody else including Prophet himself has changed Quran.

Are Christians Saved or Lost?

According to Surah 2:62 we can be assured of our place in Paradise while Surah 3:85 says we are lost.

• Surah 2:62
  • Indeed, those who believed and those who were Jews or Christians or Sabeans [before Prophet Muhammad] - those [among them] who believed in Allah and the Last Day and did righteousness - will have their reward with their Lord, and no fear will there be concerning them, nor will they grieve.
• Surah 3:85
  • And whoever seeks a religion other than Islam, it will never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers.

First : Christians is a wrong translation of Nasara نصارى . There is nothing in Quran about people who call themselves Christians. Allah told us about Nasara نصارى who are the true followers of El-messiah the human prophet who weren't crucified, died, resurrected, Son of God, God the Son, Trinity,,,,
Second: let us look at facts:

• There are conditions that applies for people who're survived and will go to heaven:
  • Believe in Allah (Not in Trinity, Son God, ,,,,,) as one no son
  • Believe in Last Day
  • Did righteousness
• Who fulfills the above conditions among Jews (followers of Mosa) and Nasara (Followers of the true El-Messiah and true teaching), Sabeans (Unitarian)
• These conditions don't apply on all What they call themselves Christians in the time being but applies to some of the early true followers of El-Messiah. Some of the early followers of Mosa and El-Messiah called Moslems as weel in Quran. We're sharing the same above believe

For the record let us keep it tidy, by this let reference accepted source material in a manner one can review it. Go read ADC book is not a reference, please at least give a page number and a wed site this can be read on. Better still accepted Islamic works would offer more credibility.

Stay on the topic to save confusion and diving into other areas not beneficial to the discussion so we all can obtain understanding and truth.


Regards Doug

I did my side. If you look at it neutrally you'll find a good "understanding and truth" but I'm not optimistic.
Anyway, waiting for your comments and you're welcome to submit any claims.
Regards