Continuing Revelation

[jackcv]

Many, many people who think they are divinely inspired are definitely deluded.

mmm hmm sister, or brother

Really? Can you name 3 whom you know personally? I don't think so.

I ask people in conversation this question about issues all the time and have yet to meet anyone, not anyone, who knew three of the many, many people they claim do something or other.

On the other hand, can you name 3 people who went to school and got knowledge, wisdom, and credentials and now work happily in jobs they like? Or 3 heterosexual couples who married and are still together happily 20 years later? That's not hard. And the reason is not hard, either.

 

[jackcv]

Have as many children as you want, because after they are exposed to the facts they will probably join our ranks.

The little boy sat on a curb next to a box. On the box was a poster that said, "Atheist puppies to good homes." A few days later the sign said, "LDS puppies to good homes." Why?
OT
He said, "Now their eyes are open."

There are 5 simple components of all the mighty prayers that I know of in the Bible (OT and NT) and Book of Mormon. Many, many people pray and receive Divine Inspiration, way above themselves, without ever analyzing the process. It is just natural to certain types of people - Christian or not. (Joel 2:28) IMO, the most important of the 5 is to pray "in the name of Jesus Christ."

 

[seekingsolace]

Really? Can you name 3 whom you know personally? I don't think so.

Oh I can think of hundreds, thousands, or millions? Delusion isn't a new concept.

 

[cloudyday2]

Really? Can you name 3 whom you know personally? I don't think so.

I can name one person - me. Luckily I recovered before I collected disciples and started a new religion

 

[Supreme]

I am quite interested in the idea of continuing Revelation.

Interestingly, Christians believe that the Spirit was given to the world after Jesus' Ascent, and that He can influence people and inspire them with God's will.

Ahmadiyya Muslims are seen as Islam's Mormons by many, because they see Mirza Ghulam Ahmed as being the Islamic Messiah, and a prophet at that; this contradicts mainstream Islam's belief in Muhammad being the Seal of the Prophets. As such, Ahmadiyya are persecuted in many nations, and cannot complete the obligatory Hajj.

 

[jackcv]

Oh I can think of hundreds, thousands, or millions? Delusion isn't a new concept.

So you can't name 3 whom you know personally.

 

[seekingsolace]

So you can't name 3 whom you know personally.

You may find it's a little uncharitable to be naming and shaming people you know.

If you expect me to do that, then you will be sorely disappointed.

 

[smaneck]

There are 5 simple components of all the mighty prayers that I know of in the Bible (OT and NT) and Book of Mormon. Many, many people pray and receive Divine Inspiration, way above themselves, without ever analyzing the process. It is just natural to certain types of people - Christian or not. (Joel 2:28) IMO, the most important of the 5 is to pray "in the name of Jesus Christ."

Uh, people in the Tanakh did not pray in Jesus' name. When I took the missionary lessons as a teenager one of the biggest things I objected to do was that they wanted me to pray for divine guidance, their way.

 

[smaneck]

I am quite interested in the idea of continuing Revelation.

Interestingly, Christians believe that the Spirit was given to the world after Jesus' Ascent, and that He can influence people and inspire them with God's will.

Correction. Christians believe that Spirit was given to the Church, not the world. So its effect is, as Max Weber put it, to routinize charisma.

Ahmadiyya Muslims are seen as Islam's Mormons by many, because they see Mirza Ghulam Ahmed as being the Islamic Messiah, and a prophet at that; this contradicts mainstream Islam's belief in Muhammad being the Seal of the Prophets. As such, Ahmadiyya are persecuted in many nations, and cannot complete the obligatory Hajj.

There is nothing heretical about believing in the coming of the Mahdi or Islamic Messiah. What Muslims object to is a revelation which in effect changes the Shariah in any way. All Muslims, including Ahmadiyyas and even Baha'is (not to say we are Muslims) believe Muhammad is the Seal of the Prophets. That is Qur'anic. The issue is, what does that title mean?

 

[Supreme]

Correction. Christians believe that Spirit was given to the Church, not the world. So its effect is, as Max Weber put it, to routinize charisma.



There is nothing heretical about believing in the coming of the Mahdi or Islamic Messiah. What Muslims object to is a revelation which in effect changes the Shariah in any way. All Muslims, including Ahmadiyyas and even Baha'is (not to say we are Muslims) believe Muhammad is the Seal of the Prophets. That is Qur'anic. The issue is, what does that title mean?

The Mahdi is a mainstream Islamic belief, but the vast majority of Sunni and Shia Muslims do not see the Ahmadiyyas as having it right.

As to what the Seal means, well, in mainstream Islamic belief, Muhammad is the last Prophet of God.

 

[smaneck]

As to what the Seal means, well, in mainstream Islamic belief, Muhammad is the last Prophet of God.

And therein lies the difference.

 

[jackcv]

You may find it's a little uncharitable to be naming and shaming people you know.

If you expect me to do that, then you will be sorely disappointed.

Thanks for that clarification, Seekingsolace. I don't need to know their names regarding this shame.

I was just asking whether you personally know 3 such people. It was a really simple question, but as the old proverb says, "the hit bird flutters."

 

[smaneck]

I was just asking whether you personally know 3 such people. It was a really simple question, but as the old proverb says, "the hit bird flutters."

Uh, no. You asked her to name them, a completely inappropriate request.

 

[seekingsolace]

Thanks for that clarification, Seekingsolace. I don't need to know their names regarding this shame.

I was just asking whether you personally know 3 such people. It was a really simple question, but as the old proverb says, "the hit bird flutters."

A shame you forget what you write so soon, then consider yourself wise in providing rude comments.

So you can't name 3 whom you know personally.

How many ways should a person word yes for you to understand?

 

[pawnraider]

I just thought I’d add my two cents worth and I know I’ve come to this discussion a bit late so please bear with me if I go over anything that has already been covered.

Continuing revelation is based on the premise that God will never leave humanity alone and that divine revelation did not therefore end with the Bible or the Qur'an.

Well, you’re only half right. God will never leave us alone but there’s no biblical assurance whatsoever that divine revelation will continue after Jesus Christ. If divine revelation is continuous and ongoing then why did the Bereans confirm what Paul was saying with what had already been revealed? See Acts 17:11. Clearly if these Bereans believed as you do concerning divine revelation then they would not have been able to confirm what Paul was saying with the Scriptures. Also, the assumption that “continuing revelation” is the method by which God will demonstrate His presence among us is a false assumption and without merit. We were promised a comforter and that is the one that will abide with us always and the method-if you will-with which he will be with to the end. John 14:16, “And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever…” It’s the Comforter that will abide with us and not this supposedly never ending divine revelation. John 14:26, “But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.” If “divine revelation” is continuing and ongoing then why would the Comforter remind the Apostles about what Jesus Christ said and teach them what He taught them?

The Baha'i concept of continuing revelation operates quite differently. We see God as revealing Himself through His Manifestations, individuals who don't merely receive a revelation from God but embody in their own Persons everything we can know about God humanly speaking. Centuries or even a millennium may pass before the appearance of a new Manifestation.

The problem is Jesus Christ and at least one of His disciples warned us about these people and referred to them as false teachers false prophets.

Matthew 7:15 “Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.” Matthew 24:11, “And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.”

2 Peter 2:1, “But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.”

There are many more such examples but these should suffice for now.

How do we test the validity of a claimant? First, there is the Person of the Manifestation Himself. Second, there is the Word which He reveals and third there is the transforming potency of His revelation.

There is no biblical justification whatsoever for this assumption. Furthermore, the Bereans were unaware of such a way in which to “test the validity” of a “claimant” if all they did was to search the Scriptures. As I’ve already noted how were the Bereans able to confirm what Paul was saying with what had already been revealed. Acts 17:11, “These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.” If divine revelation were a continuing thing as you claim then the Bereans would not only have been unable to use the Scriptures to confirm what Paul was saying but they would not have attempted to do so.

All these proofs I saw in Christianity applied to the Baha'i Faith as well.

Had you been as careful about these so-called “proofs” then you would have heeded the Bible’s warnings about false prophets as well which you haven’t.

 

[smaneck]

Well, you’re only half right. God will never leave us alone but there’s no biblical assurance whatsoever that divine revelation will continue after Jesus Christ. If divine revelation is continuous and ongoing then why did the Bereans confirm what Paul was saying with what had already been revealed? See Acts 17:11.

Uh, that's not what Acts 17:11 says:
11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

I read it as saying the scriptures confirmed what Paul was saying, not that it had already been revealed. Had that been the case then why would Paul (or Christ for that matter) have come in the first place? Your argument doesn't strike me as very logical.

Clearly if these Bereans believed as you do concerning divine revelation then they would not have been able to confirm what Paul was saying with the Scriptures.

Just because revelation continues, does not mean there is no connection between past revelation and that of the future. Again, by your logic there should be no Paul or Jesus since everything had already been revealed.

We were promised a comforter and that is the one that will abide with us always and the method-if you will-with which he will be with to the end. John 14:16, “And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever…” It’s the Comforter that will abide with us and not this supposedly never ending divine revelation. John 14:26, “But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.” If “divine revelation” is continuing and ongoing then why would the Comforter remind the Apostles about what Jesus Christ said and teach them what He taught them?

Why would He not? Note it doesn't say that "bring all things to remembrance" is the only thing the Holy Spirit will do. Indeed Jesus asserted the following:

12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

The problem is Jesus Christ and at least one of His disciples warned us about these people and referred to them as false teachers false prophets.

Just because there are false prophets does not mean there are not true ones. Jesus told us how to distinguish between them, namely "by their fruits."

There is no biblical justification whatsoever for this assumption.

So? I don't regard the Bible as the only measure of truth.

Furthermore, the Bereans were unaware of such a way in which to “test the validity” of a “claimant” if all they did was to search the Scriptures.

So?

Had you been as careful about these so-called “proofs” then you would have heeded the Bible’s warnings about false prophets as well which you haven’t.

Again, the measure Jesus gives is 'by their fruits." I'll stick with what Jesus said.

 

[pawnraider]

Uh, that's not what Acts 17:11 says:
11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

I read it as saying the scriptures confirmed what Paul was saying, not that it had already been revealed. Had that been the case then why would Paul (or Christ for that matter) have come in the first place? Your argument doesn't strike me as very logical.

The point is Paul was using the Scriptures to point out to his listeners that Jesus is the Christ and the Bereans were using the Scriptures to confirm what he was telling them. In this case the Scriptures were hundreds and thousands of years old and were unchanging. “Progressive” revelation by its very definition involves change. The Apostle Paul was appointed by Jesus Christ Himself to be a preacher of the Gospel and Paul was showing through the Scriptures that Jesus Christ was and is the promised Messiah.

Just because revelation continues, does not mean there is no connection between past revelation and that of the future.

And how does one confirm that there is a connection between past and future revelation?

Again, by your logic there should be no Paul or Jesus since everything had already been revealed.

You’re putting words into my mouth. I didn't mean revealed in its finality meaning no more, I mean revealed as in made known which is the dictionary’s definition of it.

Just because there are false prophets does not mean there are not true ones.

And how does one determine which ones are true and which ones are false? Luke 16:16, “The law and the prophets were until John…”. Clearly John the Baptist is the last of the prophets. Why should we expect anyone else?

So? I don't regard the Bible as the only measure of truth.

The Bereans did so why shouldn’t we?

Again, the measure Jesus gives is 'by their fruits." I'll stick with what Jesus said.

What makes one think that a false prophet will be unable and unwilling to produce good fruit? Matthew 7:15, “Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.” Also, we’re commanded in 1st John 4 to “try the spirits whether they be of God…” Why accept the “by their fruits” and ignore the “try the spirits”? Why accept one and not the other?

 

[smaneck]

The point is Paul was using the Scriptures to point out to his listeners that Jesus is the Christ and the Bereans were using the Scriptures to confirm what he was telling them. In this case the Scriptures were hundreds and thousands of years old and were unchanging. “Progressive” revelation by its very definition involves change. The Apostle Paul was appointed by Jesus Christ Himself to be a preacher of the Gospel and Paul was showing through the Scriptures that Jesus Christ was and is the promised Messiah.

For a prophesy to be fulfilled, there has to be change. What do you think Jesus was doing when He said, "Of old it hath been said" "but now I say unto you"?

And how does one confirm that there is a connection between past and future revelation?

Certainly prophecy provides the bridge, but it is often not sufficient. Most Jews did not see Jesus as fulfilling the prophecies and for good reason. I think those disciples who did did so as much because of Jesus' character as because of prophecy.

You’re putting words into my mouth. I didn't mean revealed in its finality meaning no more, I mean revealed as in made known which is the dictionary’s definition of it.

Then you do believe revelation continued and the Bereans acceptance of Christ on the basis of scripture certainly does not disprove that.

And how does one determine which ones are true and which ones are false? Luke 16:16, “The law and the prophets were until John…”. Clearly John the Baptist is the last of the prophets.

Not what the passage says.

Why should we expect anyone else?

Why would Jesus tell us to judge prophets by their fruits if there weren't going to be anymore?

The Bereans did so why shouldn’t we?

I'm not saying you should. The Bereans took their scriptures as the standard because they were Jews. Naturally Christians are going to use the Bible for the same reason. Doesn't mean that is the only standard there is.

What makes one think that a false prophet will be unable and unwilling to produce good fruit?

Oh, just something Jesus said:

"Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them." Matthew 7:16-20

Matthew 7:15, “Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.” Also, we’re commanded in 1st John 4 to “try the spirits whether they be of God…” Why accept the “by their fruits” and ignore the “try the spirits”? Why accept one and not the other?

You really should have read the passages that immediately followed Matthew 7:15. You know, for context, etc.. As for trying the spirits, that's okay. But I consider what Jesus says more important than John. But if you would rather contradict what Jesus says about bad trees not bearing good fruit, feel free to do so.

 

[cloudyday2]

I wonder if Jesus actually qualifies as a Manifestation in the Baha'i tradition? Moses, Muhammad, and Baha'u'llah left teachings. Jesus left very little in writing by comparison and died young.

 

[smaneck]

I wonder if Jesus actually qualifies as a Manifestation in the Baha'i tradition?

Absolutely.

Moses, Muhammad, and Baha'u'llah left teachings. Jesus left very little in writing by comparison and died young.

The Bab died even younger. In any case, I think we can be confident we have His Teachings. As Baha'u'llah wrote (in response to those Muslims who argued that the "real" Gospel had been lost):

"We have also heard a number of the foolish of the earth assert that the genuine text of the heavenly Gospel doth not exist amongst the Christians, that it hath ascended unto heaven. How grievously they have erred! How oblivious of the fact that such a statement imputeth the gravest injustice and tyranny to a gracious and loving Providence! How could God, when once the Day-star of the beauty of Jesus had disappeared from the sight of His people, and ascended unto the fourth heaven, cause His holy Book, His most great testimony amongst His creatures, to disappear also? What would be left to that people to cling to from the setting of the day-star of Jesus until the rise of the sun of the Muḥammadan Dispensation? What law could be their stay and guide? . . . Above all, how could the flow of the grace of the All-Bountiful be stayed? How could the ocean of His tender mercies be stilled? We take refuge with God, from that which His creatures have fancied about Him! Exalted is He above their comprehension!"