Comet Neowise

[J_B_]

One of the issues that seems to trouble some is that they wrongly think that naturalistic methodology means excluding God from the equation

Sure, but it would be a strawman to put this forward as the only issue that is troubling.

While we can explain how car engines work without invoking the supernatural, that doesn't mean that car engines work apart from God; for nothing can ever be apart from God as God is the maker and sustainer of all things. That is essential to the very basic Christian confession of faith:

We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, of all things seen and unseen.

At least I agree with you on this part.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Sure, but it would be a strawman to put this forward as the only issue that is troubling.

I only bring it up because it's a common objection that I see in these discussions. That if something can be explained with science then that means we are denying God. E.g. if evolution is true then that means we deny God's role in the creation of the diversity of life we observe in the world. Though that simply isn't the case. Natural processes as the means through which God acts and has so ordered the universe has always been part of the Christian faith.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[J_B_]

I only bring it up because it's a common objection that I see in these discussions. That if something can be explained with science then that means we are denying God. E.g. if evolution is true then that means we deny God's role in the creation of the diversity of life we observe in the world. Though that simply isn't the case. Natural processes as the means through which God acts and has so ordered the universe has always been part of the Christian faith.

Methinks I shouldn't have said anything. Now the danger is that we'll spiral off into a contentious discussion (evolution being the bone to pick), which would be too bad because, most of the time, I enjoy your posts.

Given I'm an engineer, and diesel engines are my thing, I'll latch onto your vehicular example to explain the problem. Science is really quite a useful thing when improving diesel engines is one's job. As tools go, I love science. I'm a science geek. But suppose (as sometimes happens) a customer comes to me with a complaint that their engine has an annoying whine in overrun and my reply is: We ran that engine model in the lab and simulated it on a computer. It does not whine in overrun because ... science. Therefore, I'm going to conclude you're not complaining about a physical whine but an allegorical whine. As we know, science doesn't address allegorical questions and allegory can't answer scientific questions. What you need to do is seek out an engine guru who can help you meditate until the whine goes away.

Horse hockey.

Yes, science is science and religion is religion. Yes, the Bible is not meant to answer scientific questions. But there is overlap. Science can, in some rare cases, draw conclusions that have theological implications. And science remains a human abstraction of the natural world, not the natural world itself. Science is not ding an sich.

 

[mindlight]

Ok...
Apparently the 6 literal day creation believers have to take a hit with this comet.

It has a 6800 year track... something that the math definitely shows and can't be explained away.

Earth history is only 6000 years at the most expanded timeline....4,000 before Jesus and 2,000 after.

Soooo

How can a comet be on a return track that is 800 years too much?

The maths plays with apparent trajectories, velocities etc and generalises back from them. But if everything was created 6000 years ago then the comet was created wherever it was 6000 years ago and has moved along that trajectory since then. So seeing a comet and guessing its trajectory back in time proves nothing. To prove that the comet has been following that trajectory for longer than 6000 years you need an eyewitness from 6000 plus years.

 

[Halbhh]

it is a spiritual matter.

Yes -- and really mean that, and realize what it means! God isn't subject to time. He isn't subject to Nature, but He created Nature. See?

So, He can move from the moment the Universe came into being to a moment when Earth is a water world, like...

...like you or I could walk from one room into another room.

Because He isn't under, beneath, subject to Nature. He can replace all this heavens (universe) and Earth whenever He chooses, with a new one.

We can read about this reality in the scripture too, if you like -- the reality that He isn't subject to time/nature/laws of physics.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Yes -- and really mean that, and realize what it means! God isn't subject to time. He isn't subject to Nature, but He created Nature. See?

So, He can move from the moment the Universe came into being to a moment when Earth is a water world, like...

...like you or I could walk from one room into another room.

Because He isn't under, beneath, subject to Nature. He can replace all this heavens (universe) and Earth whenever He chooses, with a new one.

We can read about this reality in the scripture too, if you like -- the reality that He isn't subject to time/nature/laws of physics.

I think time travel movies, and books, etc. have muddied our way of thinking on how God and time works. Many think God exists in the past, present, and future (i.e. in all points in time).

I believe God has chosen to live within our present time, and thus that means He subjects Himself to our time as a result. Sure, God can look into the future and know what is going to happen like with the events in Revelation. But this does not mean God has to time travel in order to know what will happen in the future. God simply knows all things. God is aware of all possibilities (See: Matthew 11:21). That does not mean that He is living out those possibilities right now, too.

Think about this. If God rested (stopped) from His work on the 7th day back in Genesis, then how could He really be doing that if He was working and not resting in another part of time? Short answer is that He couldn't.

Hebrews 10:12 says,

“But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;”​

Okay. Jesus offered ONE sacrifice for sins FOREVER.
Think. If Jesus offered ONE sacrifice for sins FOREVER, then that means that He cannot be reliving this sacrifice or repeating this sacrifice over and over and over and over and over again in some past time line. ONE sacrifice was made. Jesus is not living in the past repeating this sacrifice over and over and over and over again. It happened only ONE time. ONE sacrifice was made FOREVER.
This means God does not exist in some past timeline and He is a slave to time repeating the same events. God is not a slave to time whereby He mindlessly repeats those events over and over and over again. This is what has to be if God lived in the past, present and future in all points in time simultaneously.

Good thing God doesn't have to be a slave to time. For the Scriptures do not teach such a thing.

 

[dqhall]

I only bring it up because it's a common objection that I see in these discussions. That if something can be explained with science then that means we are denying God. E.g. if evolution is true then that means we deny God's role in the creation of the diversity of life we observe in the world. Though that simply isn't the case. Natural processes as the means through which God acts and has so ordered the universe has always been part of the Christian faith.

-CryptoLutheran

My theory is God created, but man does not know how long it took. Writing is only 5,000 years old. Man was not a witness to what happened millions of years ago. A few lines from Genesis is not an accurate record of all that has taken place on this earth.

 

[-57]

Nope...
My concept of the big bang theory is that God Said it and BANG there it was.

But since the sun wasn't created until the fourth day....a day would have been an unmeasurable amount of time as we would measure it.

There was light and rotation...so a day would have been know prior to day 4.

 

[-57]

Is the earth 6000 years old or is mankind 6000 years old? Just asking, could the earth predate man by eons? Not taking a position here, just asking a question that begs to be asked.

No. The bible in no ways teaches that.

 

[-57]

My theory is God created, but man does not know how long it took. Writing is only 5,000 years old. Man was not a witness to what happened millions of years ago. A few lines from Genesis is not an accurate record of all that has taken place on this earth.

Are you saying the world wide flood never happened?

 

[-57]

Yes -- and really mean that, and realize what it means! God isn't subject to time. He isn't subject to Nature, but He created Nature. See?

So, He can move from the moment the Universe came into being to a moment when Earth is a water world, like...

...like you or I could walk from one room into another room.

Because He isn't under, beneath, subject to Nature. He can replace all this heavens (universe) and Earth whenever He chooses, with a new one.

We can read about this reality in the scripture too, if you like -- the reality that He isn't subject to time/nature/laws of physics.

I see it this way....all of time has already happened for God..God in not limited to our 4 dimensions.

 

[JohnDB]

There was light and rotation...so a day would have been know prior to day 4.

That "Light" was revealed to be Jesus by John's Gospel. (The plan...not Jesus himself...I seem to be attracting every kind and brand of accusations of evil so it's getting very difficult to even have a decent conversation anymore on here without having a million false accusations thrown at a person unless they explain everything they aren't saying)

 

[-57]

That "Light" was revealed to be Jesus by John's Gospel. (The plan...not Jesus himself...I seem to be attracting every kind and brand of accusations of evil so it's getting very difficult to even have a decent conversation anymore on here without having a million false accusations thrown at a person unless they explain everything they aren't saying)

Actually I believe the light was this light...

Rev 21:22And I saw no temple in the city, for its temple is the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb. 23And the city has no need of sun or moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and its lamp is the Lamb. 24By its light will the nations walk, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it,

I could be wrong.

 

[JohnDB]

Actually I believe the light was this light...

Rev 21:22And I saw no temple in the city, for its temple is the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb. 23And the city has no need of sun or moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and its lamp is the Lamb. 24By its light will the nations walk, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it,

I could be wrong.

I don't think that you are...
Ever play with diodes?
LEDs are a simple energy conversion device...photons are given off when exposed to the magnetism that electricity is made of.
Most of the electricity is consumed by resistance given off as heat. (A different energy conversion) and not the photons themselves.
Photons is the stuff that light is made of.

So...we know that God didn't spend a whole day creating actual photons. (Too small a task considering His other accomplishments)
And that actual photonic light can easily emanate from the Father and the Son.

 

[WLP]

Ok...
Apparently the 6 literal day creation believers have to take a hit with this comet.

It has a 6800 year track... something that the math definitely shows and can't be explained away.

Earth history is only 6000 years at the most expanded timeline....4,000 before Jesus and 2,000 after.

Soooo

How can a comet be on a return track that is 800 years too much?

Where God is concerned I find it hard to limit him to our "limited understanding". Before the Earth, Sun you had a vast expanse untold numbers of galaxies there is a day in the life of a galaxy....or even greater numbers I do not know what his gauge of time was nor does anyone else. IT could be billions of our years or even greater. These things I can not say other than I believe him in what he says.
Peter writes that “one day is with Jehovah as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day.
Time has little meaning to God other than what he says "will be" and in his predetermined time. It was also said he knew you before the creation of the world..... place a time on that. How long before? Trillions of our years, or numbers too large to even comprehend with the human mind? Some things do not require understanding just belief. "It takes millions of years for light to travel from many stars the distance to earth yet we see that light today." But all things are possible with God....

 

[-57]

I don't think that you are...
Ever play with diodes?
LEDs are a simple energy conversion device...photons are given off when exposed to the magnetism that electricity is made of.
Most of the electricity is consumed by resistance given off as heat. (A different energy conversion) and not the photons themselves.
Photons is the stuff that light is made of.

So...we know that God didn't spend a whole day creating actual photons. (Too small a task considering His other accomplishments)
And that actual photonic light can easily emanate from the Father and the Son.

I believe the light was of God. Shekinah style light. Replaced on day 4.
I am also open to the possibility of the let their be light...being the creation of angels.

 

[-57]

Where God is concerned I find it hard to limit him to our "limited understanding". Before the Earth, Sun you had a vast expanse untold numbers of galaxies there is a day in the life of a galaxy....or even greater numbers I do not know what his gauge of time was nor does anyone else. IT could be billions of our years or even greater. These things I can not say other than I believe him in what he says.
Peter writes that “one day is with Jehovah as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day.
Time has little meaning to God other than what he says "will be" and in his predetermined time. It was also said he knew you before the creation of the world..... place a time on that. How long before? Trillions of our years, or numbers too large to even comprehend with the human mind? Some things do not require understanding just belief. "It takes millions of years for light to travel from many stars the distance to earth yet we see that light today." But all things are possible with God....

Russ Humphreys has an interesting theory concerning Starlight and Time.

 

[JacksBratt]

Nope...
My concept of the big bang theory is that God Said it and BANG there it was.

But since the sun wasn't created until the fourth day....a day would have been an unmeasurable amount of time as we would measure it.

So...... God needs the sun and moon to know how long 24 hours is?

Seriously... He made a very strong attempt to let everyone know that it was 6 literal days. Even after day one... right up to day 6 HE wrote "There was evening, there was morning, the first, second, third... etc day..."

I'm pretty sure that God knew that some "scientists" were going to throw away the "Six days of Creation" ... so.. He punctuated each and every day so that we would know.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Actually I believe the light was this light...

Rev 21:22And I saw no temple in the city, for its temple is the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb. 23And the city has no need of sun or moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and its lamp is the Lamb. 24By its light will the nations walk, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it,

I could be wrong.

This is the Uncreated Light, the same light which the Apostles experienced a foretaste of in the Transfiguration.

"[He] alone has immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom no one has ever seen or can see. To him be honor and eternal dominion. Amen." - 1 Timothy 6:16

-CryptoLutheran

 

[JohnDB]

So...... God needs the sun and moon to know how long 24 hours is?

Seriously... He made a very strong attempt to let everyone know that it was 6 literal days. Even after day one... right up to day 6 HE wrote "There was evening, there was morning, the first, second, third... etc day..."

I'm pretty sure that God knew that some "scientists" were going to throw away the "Six days of Creation" ... so.. He punctuated each and every day so that we would know.

But that is going beyond what was written.

If I say I started working in the evening and didn't stop until morning....

Did I work 24 hours?
What shift did I work?

What is the most common shift for the bulk of people to work?
Why?

So what happens during the shift that I just worked? (People are sleeping)