Come as a thief

Sonicwhite

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Why would Jesus say this.....If there where not scriptures saying that first He comes like a thief to take His people.....Than a seven year tribulation that we are up there with Him.....Than the second coming of Christ.......Being a thief in the night is not the rapture even tho I don't like using that word because it's no where in scripture....He also states in Revelation Ch 3 Vs 10 to the church of Philadelphia that He will keep them from the hour of trial that comes upon the whole world to test those who live on the Earth.....I imagine that it is going to be so bad that He had to take the elect......Why would He say keep watch for me if He wasn't going to shield those who love Him.
 

PROPHECYKID

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Why would Jesus say this.....If there where not scriptures saying that first He comes like a thief to take His people.....Than a seven year tribulation that we are up there with Him.....Than the second coming of Christ.......Being a thief in the night is not the rapture even tho I don't like using that word because it's no where in scripture....He also states in Revelation Ch 3 Vs 10 to the church of Philadelphia that He will keep them from the hour of trial that comes upon the whole world to test those who live on the Earth.....I imagine that it is going to be so bad that He had to take the elect......Why would He say keep watch for me if He wasn't going to shield those who love Him.

Jesus coming as a thief is not meant in that sense. You never know when a thief will come, that is why u set up your security system and do all that. In other words, since you never know when the thief will come, you need to be prepared. So when the bible says the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, it means it will come unannounced, unexpected.

It does not mean come as a thief in the way in which a thief comes secretly because no account in the bible which speaks of the coming of the Lord even implies that he will come secretly.

Now the only time we are removed is when he comes again to deliver final judgement upon the world.
 
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tremble

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Than a seven year tribulation that we are up there with Him

Both Daniel and the Revelation describe end-time events in a way that has two different meanings. In Daniel, there is mention of a "prince" who will make an agreement with "many" for one "week" (i.e. a 7 year period). Both Jesus and Satan are referred to as a prince in scripture. While Jesus makes an agreement with his 144,000k followers for the final 7 years as his spiritual temple (+ the great multitude no one can count), the AC will make an agreement with the Jews for their physical temple. The physical temple is the counterfeit while the body of believers is the real deal.

The final 7 years are split into two equal halves. The first half is understood to be the Great Deception, where the AC brings in world peace and gives the impression that he's the saviour of the world. He will cause "craft to prosper" and organize peace in the middle East, brokering a deal with the various religions in the area, and especially with the flesh Jews there, to rebuild the temple.

Prophecy says that, "in the middle of the final 7 year period", after the rebuilding of the physical, temple the AC will profane the temple in some way, causing the sacrifices to cease. He will probably do something to the physical temple to assert his dominance there, but the real profanity will be against God's temple of believers, which we call the Great Tribulation.

After 3.5 years of Great Trib Jesus will return, catching his followers up into the air and taking them to "new Jerusalem come down out of Heaven" for the marriage supper of the lamb while the vials of God's wrath are being pored out on the disobedient world below.

The last vial will be the battle of Armageddon, with Jesus at the head of an army of saints flowing down to the battle field.
 
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PROPHECYKID

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Both Daniel and the Revelation describe end-time events in a way that has two different meanings. In Daniel, there is mention of a "prince" who will make an agreement with "many" for one "week" (i.e. a 7 year period). Both Jesus and Satan are referred to as a prince in scripture. While Jesus makes an agreement with his 144,000k followers for the final 7 years as his spiritual temple (+ the great multitude no one can count), the AC will make an agreement with the Jews for their physical temple. The physical temple is the counterfeit while the body of believers is the real deal.

The final 7 years are split into two equal halves. The first half is understood to be the Great Deception, where the AC brings in world peace and gives the impression that he's the saviour of the world. He will cause "craft to prosper" and organize peace in the middle East, brokering a deal with the various religions in the area, and especially with the flesh Jews there, to rebuild the temple.

Prophecy says that, "in the middle of the final 7 year period", after the rebuilding of the physical, temple the AC will profane the temple in some way, causing the sacrifices to cease. He will probably do something to the physical temple to assert his dominance there, but the real profanity will be against God's temple of believers, which we call the Great Tribulation.

After 3.5 years of Great Trib Jesus will return, catching his followers up into the air and taking them to "new Jerusalem come down out of Heaven" for the marriage supper of the lamb while the vials of God's wrath are being pored out on the disobedient world below.

The last vial will be the battle of Armageddon, with Jesus at the head of an army of saints flowing down to the battle field.

Actually my brother, I do not believe you are interpreting the scripture in Daniel correctly.

Very simply, there is no 7 year tribulation that the scriptures speak about.

Let us take the 70 week period in Daniel 9. It says this:

Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

The starting point of this prophecy is 457 BC when King Arterxerces gave the decree that the temple be rebuilt. Now from that time to the Messiah the Prince is 69 weeks or 469yrs which lands us on AD27.

AD27 is when Jesus began his ministry as the Messiah. So far, the only prince mentioned here is the Messiah. Verse 26 says:

Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

So after AD27 the Messiah would be cut of or killed. Notice the verse says the people of the prince that shall come, shall destroy the city and sanctuary. Now based on your interpretation, we are to believe that within this verse is a 2,000 plus year gap. But that is not what this verse is saying. After the Messiah dies, there is a prince that shall come and shall send his people to destroy the city and temple.

Well this is obviously speaking of the destruction of the city and template in AD70 when prince Titus sent his armies to destroy Jerusalem. Finally verse 27.

Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

We are immediately faced with the question, who is the he that confirms a covenant? Verse 26 gives 2 possibilities. It is either:

1. Messiah the Prince
2. Prince that shall come.

Now I say it is Messiah the Prince and here is why. In order to confirm something, it must have already been made previously. To confirm means to strengthen, to reassure, to make better, to uphold. Notice it does not say he confirms a covenant, it says he confirms THE covenant which means it is a special covenant that the readers would know about.

Additionally, we already know who is thee Prince that shall come and who came already. Titus never confirmed a covenant with anyone. The covenant that Jesus Christ confirmed was the Old Covenant by instituting the New Covenant in the middle of the final week. Jesus died exactly 3 1/2 yrs after he began his Ministry in AD 27. Through his death he instituted the New Covenant thus confirming the old covenant.

By his death he caused sacrifices to cease in the sense that they were no longer necessary and had no more power.

The death of Stephen who was the first martyr and was almost like a type of Christ was the end of the 70 weeks when the Jewish leaders rejected the covenant of Jesus and decided to kill Stephen instead. Stephen pretty much highlighted the history of Israel and their constant rebellion and pretty much making the case of their judgement which would fall years later when the temple and city was destroyed, as Jesus did in Luke 21 I believe.

In the entire bible Stephen is the only person whose death had many similarities to Jesus' death. Somehow the Christian world does not find this at all significant. Take these few verses.

Act 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
Act 7:60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

Luk 23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.
Luk 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

So the 70 week prophecy is indeed a prophecy spanning 470 years and not 469yrs with an indefinite 2000+ year gap and then the final week. The prince is Jesus Christ and not the Antichrist.
 
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tremble

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Very simply, there is no 7 year tribulation that the scriptures speak about.
I agree. I suggested the last 7 years will be split into two equal 3.5 year periods, the second of which will be the GT.

Anyway, here are my thoughts (a study written by a friend of mine) on the missing "week". It's a bit long but comprehensive and deals specifically with your concerns as well as some of the spiritual contributions Jesus gave to prophecy.

Theoretically the end of the world could still be another thousand years or more away. Despite claims to the contrary, there appears to be nothing in scripture that says when it will happen. However, because some of the things leading up to the end of the world are already starting to take shape, it is quite likely that the end is very near.

And just because we cannot at this point say when the end will come, does not mean that we won't know until it suddenly catches us by surprise. In fact, there is a very precise countdown over the last seven years before Christ returns; and there are certain things to look for as an indication that the last seven years have begun.

These last seven years are referred to both in Daniel's prophecies, and more extensively in the prophecies of The Revelation. We will concentrate more on the details of what actually happens at that time in later chapters. But for now we will just discuss the significance of this missing "week".

Recall that the angel Gabriel spoke to Daniel concerning "seventy weeks" or 490 years. Daniel 9:24-26

He said, "Seventy weeks are determined for your people and for your holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy." But so far we have only considered sixty-nine of these seventy weeks, i.e. from 454 B.C. to 30 A.D.

The angel Gabriel had promised that by the end of the seventieth week everything would be apples for Daniel's people. Evil would be wiped out and "everlasting righteousness" would take its place. So if 483 years ended in 30 A.D., when Jesus was crucified, then all the problems of the world should have been pretty well fixed up seven years later, in 37 A.D. Was that what happened?

Far from it. The followers of Jesus Christ were persecuted and killed following his death and resurrection, and it was Daniel's own people who were doing it!

Just as a threat from God might be reversed if people repented, it seems that a promise might be reversed if people turned away from him. However, with a prophecy of this magnitude, you would think that God could have exercised his ability to look ahead and see what was going to happen, and said something to avoid confusion.

Closer examination shows that God did exactly that. He not only knew that Daniel's people would reject Christ, but he also knew that it would set in motion events that would significantly change the world thereafter. And we will show that the Seventy Weeks prophecy took all that into account when it was first written.

Long before he was crucified, Jesus Christ taught people that God wanted to do a new thing; something very big; something that would not be restricted by the limited political ambitions of the Jewish people.

Jesus was famous for commending such non-Jews as a Roman soldier and a Canaanite woman, for having greater faith than he had seen evidenced in any of the Chosen People (Israel). (Luke 7:9; Matthew 15:28)

He told a Samaritan woman that a time was coming when it wouldn't matter whether a person worshipped in the holy city of Jerusalem or not, as long as their heart was right. (John 4:21)

And then there is the famous story of the Good Samaritan, in which Jesus uses a member of the despised, heretical cult of the Samaritans as an example of the kind of person that God is looking for.

Jesus made disparaging comments about the Temple in Jerusalem, which seemed to be saying that he was more important than the Temple. (John 2:19-21) And it was for this that he was crucified. (Matthew 26:61) No wonder that his own people rejected him! Was this the Messiah who was supposed to unite all of Israel and lead them in establishing the rule of God over all the earth? Hardly!

What Jesus was doing was challenging Israel to lay down their petty limited vision of God in political terms, and to see him in universal spiritual terms. It is still difficult to get people to see that today, because the organization which has followed Christ has become every bit as political as the Jews were. The institutional church today is more concerned with power and wealth than with the lifestyle and values of the poor carpenter's son who wandered around Israel 2000 years ago.

Daniel's "people" were a nation, a race, and a religion all rolled up into one. But the Messiah was coming to reveal to the world that the Creator of the Universe was not limited to one nation, one race, or even one religion. He was able to look at the heart of each individual, and to judge that individual alone on the basis of his or her sincere, humble, believing, loving spirit. This new spiritual "kingdom" that Jesus called the "Kingdom of God" would find itself generally acting in opposition to (or "cut off" from) the kingdom of Israel, and, indeed, the various kingdoms of Christianity as well.

When Jesus died on the cross, he said, "It is finished!" and the Bible tells us that God himself tore the huge, thick curtain that hung in the temple as the last barrier between the people and the place where they presumed that God lived, the "holy of holies". (Matthew 27:50-51)

Israel had cut off its Messiah, and God had miraculously cut off Israel. They were finished. In doing that, God effectively put an end to all organized religion as the criteria for determining whether a person is a child of God or not.

Let us read the rest of the prophecy about Christ's death: "After sixty-two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself. And the people of the prince that will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end of it will be with a flood; and unto the end of the war desolations are determined." (Daniel 9:26)

In 70 A.D. Roman armies surrounded Jerusalem and destroyed the city and the Temple. To this day, Jews have not been able to offer animal sacrifices, because it can only be done in the one Temple, and in the one location (presently occupied by a very sacred Muslim Mosque). Daniel 9:26 could be describing what happened in 70 A.D.
The people (Roman armies) of the prince that will come (a future evil leader) destroyed the city (Jerusalem) and the sanctuary (the Temple). This is the military interpretation of the passage. However, that did not take place until forty years after Christ was executed.

We said earlier that prophecies are often written so as to say more than one thing at the same time. In Daniel 9:24-26 Christ is called "the Prince". So Christ is the "prince that will come". It is his people who destroyed the power of the Temple and the Holy City. There was no flood of water neither in 30 A.D. nor in 70 A.D., but there was a flood of people who joined the Christian Church on the Day of Pentecost, seven weeks after Christ was crucified. Thousands were swept into this new movement, which then proceeded to change the world.

So Daniel 9:26 may be saying that the people (or followers) of the Prince (or Messiah), had, by their faith, put an end to the so-called Chosen People, their Temple, and their Holy City. Daniel's people had cut themselves off by cutting off their Messiah; and the last week (or seven years) was thus, taken away from them.

Daniel's prophecy continues in Daniel 9:27. "He will confirm the covenant with many for one week; and in the midst of the week, he will cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease."

Here is a reference to the missing "week". Because the chosen people were "cut off" at the same time that their Messiah was "cut off" (by their own choice), the last week was put on hold. It has been on hold ever since 30 A.D. when Jesus Christ was crucified. But the visible people of God still have seven years of reign left.

What makes Christianity different from Judaism is that it is not a political organisation. It is an invisible, spiritual organisation, whose membership only God knows. But this concept of "God's people" is more correct than that of political Israel (which is now only two of the twelve original tribes of Israel anyway, the others having been lost.)

But we are talking about two princes here a good one and a bad one. We are talking about something that will put an end to sin and establish "eternal righteousness". Could both of these princes be planning to confirm a covenant with someone for one "week", or seven years?

For the Jews, who want only to have their Temple back, and to be able to sacrifice animals for their sins, the "covenant" has to do with them as a nation, a race, and a religion. Their religion will not be complete until they have their Temple. This is the "old covenant" or what Christians call the "Old Testament".

For Christians there is a different covenant, paid for with the sacrificial blood of their perfect Lamb. It is not a covenant for a military kingdom, but a covenant for a spiritual kingdom. For 2,000 years we sincere believers have been isolated from each other. No visible organisation can ever claim to have been the kingdom of God on earth. Always there has been a mixture of weeds and wheat, sheep and goats, good and bad.

But for these last seven years, the "good guys" (i.e. the ones that God has personally examined and determined to be genuine, sincere servants, willing to do anything that he says), will be visibly united in one body consisting of twelve tribes.

In Revelation 7, God "seals" (or "confirms") 144,000 of his "servants". He organises them into tribes of 12,000 each. St. Paul taught that those who claim to be Jews (or more correctly, "children of Israel") through their physical relationship with Abraham are now no more children of Israel than are the Arabs. (Galatians 4:22-28) "We," says Paul, referring to people who have accepted Jesus as God's Messiah, "are the true children of promise."

So while the religious Jews make an agreement with the evil "prince" to get their Temple back, the true children of God will be organised by their prince into tribes. And he will do it by supernaturally communicating to each of them through his Holy Spirit. For the Spirit of God has made the bodies of all true believers his Temple now. And when all these believers become visibly united, they will be the ultimate fulfilment of Daniel's "people", living out their final seven years on earth.

But how will those who do not have the Holy Spirit know that the last seven years have begun? Since the last seven years will be marked by an agreement to rebuild the Temple (or in some other way to allow animal sacrifices to resume) in Jerusalem, this is what they should be watching for. When animal sacrifices resume in Jerusalem, you will know that there are less than seven years left until the end.
 
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AT7iLA

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1 Thessalonians 5:2
For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night.

-It says the DAY of the Lord comes as a thief in the night, meaning we don't know when that day is gonna be.

Revelation 1:7
Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.

1 Thessalonians 4:16
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

-Jesus will descend and everyone will see Him. Also, when He comes it's going to be LOUD it wont be a secret rapture. There is no secret rapture.

2 Thessalonians 1:3-8
We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is fitting, because your faith grows exceedingly, and the love of every one of you all abounds toward each other, so that we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that you endure, which is manifest evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer; since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

-So the righteous go to heaven and the wicked are destroyed... There is no 7 year tribulation.
 
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tremble

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I'm glad you asked, AT! ^.^ I also believe there will not be a secret rapture.

DAN 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
The start of this prophecy (verse 24) talks about everything being finished once it is fulfilled and it's commonly understood to be an end time prophecy.

I'm guessing you already understand that the word "week" can have more than one interpretation, meaning 7 days or 7 years. In Genesis there is the story of Jacob being tricked into marrying Rachel, where this word is used in context; ( Fulfil her week, and we will give thee this also for the service which thou shalt serve with me yet seven other years. Gen 29:27-28)

I also believe that the "he" in this prophecy is referring to two different princes who will both be performing significant actions. One prince is Jesus, and the other prince is the AC.

The start of the final 7 years will be marked by the AC making a covenant with the flesh Jews to rebuild their physical temple while Jesus makes a covenant with 144,000k of his faithful followers to organize them into his spiritual temple here on Earth.

3.5 years later, ( the middle of that final 7 year period) the AC will cause the sacrifices in the physical temple to cease by profaning the temple in some way. But it's a duel prophecy. He will also profane Jesus' temple by persecuting his followers.

REV 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
3.5 years of being "tread under foot" or profaned.

Daniel mentions this again as part of his dream describing the final world government;


DAN 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
Most modern day Bibles translate the phrase, "a time and times and the dividing of time" to mean 3.5 years of the saints being "worn out" by this "little horn" (the AC)

A third reference to this 3.5 year period is mentioned in Daniel 12;

DAN 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.
After a 3.5 year period the "scattering of the holy people" (i.e. Great Tribulation) will be finished.

REV 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

REV 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle,
Although I do not believe there will be a secret rapture, I do believe that God will offer some measure of protection for those who have learned to hear his voice and follow his instructions. When describing the situation of the world just before he returns, Jesus referenced this situation in Luke 17, ( ... Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together. LK 17:37)

REV 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

REV 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
42 months.
1260 days.
Middle of the "week" (i.e. 3.5 years).
A time and times and dividing of time.

There are several ways the same period of time is described, and I believe it is purposely done that way not only to show it's significance, but to prevent tampering with it's meaning. There are a lot of people out there playing number games with coincidence, but the Revelation is not just a random series of events happening over thousands of years. The primary action of the prophecies from Daniel and Revelation take place over a concise period of time and relate specifically to one another within that time frame.
 
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Sonicwhite

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Me being one who doesn't understand prophecy but believes it is unfolding...It kinda reminds me where the disciples where arguing on who will be the greatest.....I don't claim to know everything.....I just often feel left out and I know God doesn't see it that way......So many things I wished and understood but....I pray that God watches over His flock if we are close to the time.
 
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