Cherokees vote to display Ten Commandments.

[rebelEnigma]

Separation of Church and State - that's all I can say to this!

^ The most overrused, beaten-to-death, literary monstrosity that has ever been concocted from the Constitution. The Constitution DOES NOT forbid church in the state, rather, it is the other way around.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

This does not mean that church cannot get involved in the state. I don't see anywhere here where it says that. The founding fathers never intended for Christianity to not be involved in the government. But they didn't want a theocracy either. America is far from a theocracy by they way.

 

[momalle1]

I would much rather see the Senate, Congress, and *gasp* the Supreme Court open their meetings with prayer rather than not.

And he's not forcing his beliefs on others. Forcing would be like trying to make someone bow down before them, obviously this is not the case.

This is a very good point. How would you feel if they started with a Buhdist prayer, or Jewish or Muslim?

 

[rebelEnigma]

Well, I wouldn't say the Muslim, Buddhist prayer obviously. Those who don't want to pray a prayer to God are free to not do so. I won't force them to pray.

 

[momalle1]

Well, I wouldn't say the Muslim, Buddhist prayer obviously. Those who don't want to pray a prayer to God are free to not do so. I won't force them to pray.

Really? If the senate opened with a reading from the Koran, you wouldn't mind? If when you went to court you had to place your right hand on the Buddhist Bible, you wouldn't care?

I would.

 

[jsn112]

People at the ACLU sure don't like this news.

I wonder if they are trying to find loopholes? I bet you they are.

 

[jsn112]

Really? If the senate opened with a reading from the Koran, you wouldn't mind? If when you went to court you had to place your right hand on the Buddhist Bible, you wouldn't care?

I would.

In this country you have the rights to be an atheist. You have the rights to act like an atheist. You have the rights to believe like an atheist. Nobody is forcing you to convert into Christianity. However, Christianity was the accepted religion by the ancestors. Live with it.

 

[rebelEnigma]

In this country you have the rights to be an atheist. You have the rights to act like an atheist. You have the rights to believe like an atheist. Nobody is forcing you to convert into Christianity. However, Christianity was the accepted religion by the ancestors. Live with it.

As honest as it gets.

Really? If the senate opened with a reading from the Koran, you wouldn't mind? If when you went to court you had to place your right hand on the Buddhist Bible, you wouldn't care?

I would.

Did I say that I wouldn't mind? Silly me, must have been a slip of the tongue. I never said that I wouldn't care. I said that I wouldn't say the prayer. I would refuse to do it because I do not believe in Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam, whatever. And I would mind if I had to place my hand on the Buddhist bible because I also don't believe in it.

What would you do?

 

[MaryS]

Really? If the senate opened with a reading from the Koran, you wouldn't mind? If when you went to court you had to place your right hand on the Buddhist Bible, you wouldn't care?

I would.

Our Senate is not all Christians but they do open every session with a prayer by a military chaplain and the pledge of allegiance to the flag including the words "under God". I've never heard of any Senators complaining about this practice.

 

[momalle1]

"Christianity was the accepted religion by the ancestors."

The ancestors? Founding fathers? Either way, while it was the majority, it was not all of them, however, they all agreed to not have any official religion.

"Did I say that I wouldn't mind? Silly me, must have been a slip of the tongue. I never said that I wouldn't care. I said that I wouldn't say the prayer. I would refuse to do it because I do not believe in Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam, whatever. And I would mind if I had to place my hand on the Buddhist bible because I also don't believe in it.

What would you do?"

No, you did not, I was trying to clarify what you said. I would refuse to place my hand on any other bible, and I would refuse to be lead in any other prayer. I would be offended by both, wouldn't you?

 

[Kroger99]

Question:

When Congress opens in prayer, does the chaplain close the prayer in Christ's name? I really am not sure on this. If not, it is an open ended prayer and can be left open to whichever God you recognize as God.

Some time back at a Firefighter function, a freind of mine was asked to open the function in prayer. He got pretty excited about the oportunity until they informed him that he couldn't pray in Christ name. He explained that he will only pray in the name of our Savior and said that they should get someone else.

 

[OttawaUk]

Separation of Church and State - that's all I can say to this!

You may want to re-visit the definition of that term.

This has nothing to do with this at all.

 

[Jipsah]

This is a very good point. How would you feel if they started with a Buhdist prayer, or Jewish or Muslim?

Irrelevant. If the Cherokees decide, by whatever mechanism it is they use to decide, to post the 10 Commandments, or open their meetings with a Buddhist prayer, or do a ceremony to Toke the god of scorn, it's their business, and neither the federal govenment nor anyone else has any legal right to compel them to do otherwise.

The Constitution gives the federal government no legal right to interfere with such matters, either at a tribal or state level. We have allowed them to rule in things of this nature because we are, by and large, too ignorant of the Constitution to say "Hey, y'all have no legal right to intervene here!". We assume that the feds can do whatever they like, and as long as we let them, they do.

The circumstances of Jefferson's "separation of church and state" comment spoke precisely to the fact that the US gov't had no right to interfere with the established church of the state of Connecticut. The limit was on federal power, and not on how the people of the several states conducted religious observances.

 

[Jipsah]

"The ancestors? Founding fathers? Either way, while it was the majority, it was not all of them, however, they all agreed to not have any official religion.

They all decided not to allow the federal gov't to have any official religion. The several states, however, certainly did. For instance, the worthy Mr. Jefferson in his letter to the Danbury Baptists declared that the federal gov't had no right to interfere with the official religion of the state of Connecticut.

 

[UberLutheran]

It sure would be nice if, in all those places where the Ten Commandments are posted (or people want to post them), if people actually obeyed them.

Of course - that means no going out to lunch at a restaurant after church, because that means the people at the restaurant have to work on the Sabbath.

And it means no going to the grocery or going to the mall, because those people would have to work on the Sabbath as well.

It means we'd have to re-evaluate how we view our possessions, our jobs, our positiions, our wealth, our competitiveness and getting ahead at all cost, because worshipping our creature comforts and material possessions IS idolatry.

It means we couldn't deify our leaders (such as putting statues of Ronald Reagan in every county, as some people have proposed) nor could we associate the actions of a political party with the will of God, because that is taking the name of God in vain.

It means we couldn't spend now and pass the debt we incur onto future generations, because that is stealing.

It's quite one thing to erect statues and monuments of the Ten Commandments. It's another thing entirely to actually DO the Ten Commandments -- and for most of us, that would mean giving up an awful lot of idols.

 

[arnegrim]

It sure would be nice if, in all those places where the Ten Commandments are posted (or people want to post them), if people actually obeyed them.

Of course - that means no going out to lunch at a restaurant after church, because that means the people at the restaurant have to work on the Sabbath.

And it means no going to the grocery or going to the mall, because those people would have to work on the Sabbath as well.

It means we'd have to re-evaluate how we view our possessions, our jobs, our positiions, our wealth, our competitiveness and getting ahead at all cost, because worshipping our creature comforts and material possessions IS idolatry.

It means we couldn't deify our leaders (such as putting statues of Ronald Reagan in every county, as some people have proposed) nor could we associate the actions of a political party with the will of God, because that is taking the name of God in vain.

It means we couldn't spend now and pass the debt we incur onto future generations, because that is stealing.

It's quite one thing to erect statues and monuments of the Ten Commandments. It's another thing entirely to actually DO the Ten Commandments -- and for most of us, that would mean giving up an awful lot of idols.

IF the US was a Christian nation you would have a point... but it's not.

 

[JPPT1974]

In this country you have the rights to be an atheist. You have the rights to act like an atheist. You have the rights to believe like an atheist. Nobody is forcing you to convert into Christianity. However, Christianity was the accepted religion by the ancestors. Live with it.

Yeah that's true. You can act not just like an atheist. But also as a Muslim, Jew, Buddist, Islam, etc.

 

[MaryS]

Question:

When Congress opens in prayer, does the chaplain close the prayer in Christ's name? I really am not sure on this. If not, it is an open ended prayer and can be left open to whichever God you recognize as God.

Rear Admiral Barry Black is the 62nd and current Senate Chaplain. He does hold the Bible when delivering the prayer for the Senate, but I don't remember whether he actually uses "Christ" in his prayers for the Senate floor. He does say "our Father", God, "guide us", etc.

http://www.senate.gov/reference/office/chaplain.htm
(excerpt:

Throughout the years, the United States Senate has honored the historic separation of Church and State, but not the separation of God and State. The first Senate, meeting in New York City on April 25, 1789, elected the Right Reverend Samuel Provost, the Episcopal Bishop of New York, as its first Chaplain. During the past two hundred and seven years, all sessions of the Senate have been opened with prayer, strongly affirming the Senate's faith in God as Sovereign Lord of our Nation. The role of the Chaplain as spiritual advisor and counselor has expanded over the years from a part-time position to a full-time job as one of the Officers of the Senate.

In addition to opening the Senate each day in prayer, Chaplain Black’s duties include counseling and spiritual care for the Senators, their families and their staffs, a combined constituency of six thousand people. Chaplain Black’s days are filled with meeting Senators about spiritual and moral issues, assisting Senators’ staffs with research on theological and biblical questions, teaching Senate Bible study groups, encouraging such groups as the weekly Senate Prayer Breakfast, and facilitating discussion and reflection small groups among Senators and staff.

 

[UberLutheran]

IF the US was a Christian nation you would have a point... but it's not.

Still, Christians are Christian -- and if Christians expect others to respect the Ten Commandments and follow what they say, the least that Christians can do is follow the Ten Commandments themselves.

 

[arnegrim]

True.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to UberLutheran again.

DOH!

 

[rebelEnigma]

Of course - that means no going out to lunch at a restaurant after church, because that means the people at the restaurant have to work on the Sabbath.

And it means no going to the grocery or going to the mall, because those people would have to work on the Sabbath as well.

The commands about obeying the Sabbath are null and void now, since Jesus died on the cross for us. We now find rest in Jesus and are no longer obligated to rest on the Sabbath. But that's a different topic anyway.

It's quite one thing to erect statues and monuments of the Ten Commandments. It's another thing entirely to actually DO the Ten Commandments -- and for most of us, that would mean giving up an awful lot of idols.

Yeah, people want to have the Ten Commandments up but they still don't obey them. Having the Ten Commandments erected is borderline idolatry. We shouldn't be trying to get the Ten Commandments in government. We should be trying to get the One WHO MADE THE TEN COMMANDMENTS back in government.