Charles Darwin to receive apology from the Church of England for rejecting evolution

[Pete Harcoff]

Very good means perfect now?

US Fundamentalism: Reinventing theology since 1776.

 

[Veyrlian]

You are guessing correctly, and free will is not a manufacturing flaw. Now --- if God would have embedded Murphy's Law into His Creation, then you might have a point, but Murphy's Law isn't fueled by free will, and God didn't embed it into His creation.

I'd consider Murphy's Law to be a part of the universe. If God didn't create it, who did? Murphy? Doesn't this suggest Murphy to be on par with God, if he's creations can mess with God's creation.

 

[Cabal]

You are guessing correctly, and free will is not a manufacturing flaw. Now --- if God would have embedded Murphy's Law into His Creation, then you might have a point, but Murphy's Law isn't fueled by free will, and God didn't embed it into His creation.

That's why he invented Original Sin (TM) instead!

It's Murphy's Law in post-fall existence form!

Buy now and obtain it from birth!

 

[Cabal]

US Fundamentalism: Reinventing theology since 1776.

Yup. As a (half) Brit, I sometimes wonder what would have happened if the Puritans hadn't left for the new world.

On the plus side, while they were still living in GB they did only manage to get power for 11 years, as opposed to....wait, what's 2008 minus 1776?

 

[Veyrlian]

Furthermore, if God created everything this would include said notorious Murphy. Why was he created in the first place, or was it a manufacturing flaw too?

 

[MrGoodBytes]

Unless you don't have anything else to add, I'll just "/thread" out.

I'll wait a few more posts though and see if anyone really has anything to say.

It's not my fault that your analogies are, without exception, simplified to a point where they lose their relevance to the issue at hand.

 

[MoonLancer]

I've already covered both of those points in this thread --- but once again:

1. If he was ordered not to go down Interstate 5, and he does anyway, it's my fault?
2. He could have wrecked it because he was avoiding hitting someone on the highway.

A perfect human would not make mistakes, A perfect car would be uncrushable. Show me where It describes gods creation as perfect? As I understand it was only very good. So the potential for failure was already embedded. Since God is Created the universe and the rules that govern it, How would not not be responsible for causality?

If A car maker could maker could make a car that never crashes but diden',t someone crashing in imperfect car may very well be the fault of the driver, but said crash was still avoidable if the car maker/seller had only given that man the uncrushable car.

In otherwords, god choose not to make the indestructible car KNOWING that the man would crash. do you honestly think that god has no responsibilities in the matter?

ps: perfect creations don't make mistakes. God made man fallible from the beginning. he KNEW the apple would be eaten. In fact thats why he placed it in the garden. Man was framed for the car accident (and the fall). The cars break line had been cut and the driver drugged, and the cop (the angel who banished Adam and Eve) was had been bribed by god.

So yes, it is gods fault. well fault is the wrong word. It was gods intention.

 

[atomweaver]

AHhhhhh.. but that scientist is still tarnished by what the other bad scientists did, just as we are all tarnished by Piltdown Man and Pluto (the evil non-planet).

*shrug* Speak for yourself, I'm a fundamental independent scientist...

 

[Morcova]

Oh, but Lucifer and Adam were a part of that Creation discussed in Genesis 1, AVET. So your analogy fails.

So your god is too weak to fix what he screwed up in the first place?

 

[atomweaver]

Thanks for clarifying. In other words, U.S. scientists didn't fall for it --- and I'm thankful.

Just FYI; Past performance is not an indicator for future success. The more fundies keep dumping carp in our kid's biology education, the worse the odds of a future Frances Oldham Kelsey coming out of the school system.

(Yes, I know i'm "preachin' to the choir", in addressing this to you AVVET...)

 

[BananaSlug]

I've already covered both of those points in this thread --- but once again:

1. If he was ordered not to go down Interstate 5, and he does anyway, it's my fault?
2. He could have wrecked it because he was avoiding hitting someone on the highway.

1. Yes, because he was created without knowledge of good/evil so he doesn't know that it is wrong. Plus it is not a perfect car if it cannot handle Interstate 5 without crashing.
2. If this is the case, then he can't be found at fault since he was trying not to hurt somebody.

I do not think the car analogy is a good one...
Here is a better one:

A father has a little boy, only 3 years old (he has no knowledge of "good and evil"). The father has a loaded pistol sitting in the middle of the living room. He tells the boy not to play with it because he'll shoot himself and die (even though the father knew ahead of time that the boy would shoot himself). The little boy, not knowing any better because he has no knowledge of "good and evil," plays with the gun and shoots himself in the head. Then the father blames his son for playing witht he gun.
I think I'll try this when I have kids and tell the judge I told him not to play with it...

 

[Belk]

I've already backed that point up with Scripture --- since He declared everything He had made "very good" --- and later admits that Lucifer was "perfect".Notice in the Ezekiel passage how "wast perfect" later became imperfect?

God did not created anything imperfect in Genesis 1, and cannot be held responsible for the Fall or its byproducts.

Fallacy of composition. Simply because Lucifer was created perfect does not mean everything else was. In point of fact if some things where created perfect and others would not, that would explain why creation was only "very good" since it was a mixed bag.

 

[Belk]

We've been over this Leviticus 14 "cure" before, haven't we?

Not that I have seen. However when I read it I don't see the birds as being a cure. The way it reads to me is that once someone IS cured, this is the procedure to be followed.

 

[AV1611VET]

Not that I have seen. However when I read it I don't see the birds as being a cure. The way it reads to me is that once someone IS cured, this is the procedure to be followed.

Precisely --- this is a post-cure ritual that one went through after the fact.

 

[NailsII]

ps: perfect creations don't make mistakes. God made man fallible from the beginning. he KNEW the apple would be eaten. In fact thats why he placed it in the garden. Man was framed for the car accident (and the fall). The cars break line had been cut and the driver drugged, and the cop (the angel who banished Adam and Eve) was had been bribed by god.

So yes, it is gods fault. well fault is the wrong word. It was gods intention.

One has to wonder why god simply didn't make the tree a few feet taller, with less branches at the reach of a human hand...

 

[MasterOfKrikkit]

Precisely --- this is a post-cure ritual that one went through after the fact.

Belk, this is more for you than AV, but...

4Then shall the priest command to take for him that is to be cleansed two birds alive and clean, and cedar wood, and scarlet, and hyssop: 5And the priest shall command that one of the birds be killed in an earthen vessel over running water:
6As for the living bird, he shall take it, and the cedar wood, and the scarlet, and the hyssop, and shall dip them and the living bird in the blood of the bird that was killed over the running water:
7And he shall sprinkle upon him that is to be cleansed from the leprosy seven times, and shall pronounce him clean, and shall let the living bird loose into the open field.
8And he that is to be cleansed shall wash his clothes, and shave off all his hair, and wash himself in water, that he may be clean: and after that he shall come into the camp, and shall tarry abroad out of his tent seven days.
9But it shall be on the seventh day, that he shall shave all his hair off his head and his beard and his eyebrows, even all his hair he shall shave off: and he shall wash his clothes, also he shall wash his flesh in water, and he shall be clean.
10And on the eighth day he shall

(Emphasis mine, obviously.) The post-cleansing offering instructions start in verse 10. Before that it sounds a whole lot like a cleansing ritual. Now, it could be that the KJ translation makes it sounds that way, but it's not really supposed to... oh, wait, no, that's not allowed in AVland.

 

[Split Rock]

One has to wonder why god simply didn't make the tree a few feet taller, with less branches at the reach of a human hand...

Because He wouldn't be able to test his Perfect Creation and watch him fail, as God knew he would ahead of time. Kinda like playing with rats in a maze....

 

[NailsII]

Belk, this is more for you than AV, but...

(Emphasis mine, obviously.) The post-cleansing offering instructions start in verse 10. Before that it sounds a whole lot like a cleansing ritual. Now, it could be that the KJ translation makes it sounds that way, but it's not really supposed to... oh, wait, no, that's not allowed in AVland.

Nice quote, but you missed off the authorative beginning:

Leviticus 14

Cleansing From Infectious Skin Diseases

1 The LORD said to Moses, 2 "These are the regulations for the diseased person at the time of his ceremonial cleansing, when he is brought to the priest:

So it must be true, right?

 

[Belk]

Belk, this is more for you than AV, but...


(Emphasis mine, obviously.) The post-cleansing offering instructions start in verse 10. Before that it sounds a whole lot like a cleansing ritual. Now, it could be that the KJ translation makes it sounds that way, but it's not really supposed to... oh, wait, no, that's not allowed in AVland.

Interesting, thanks. Does anyone have a link where it is established cleansing = cure? I did a Google search, but the only thing I came up with was the skeptics annotated bible which simply has the exact same argument and christian response as here.

 

[MoonLancer]

Interesting, thanks. Does anyone have a link where it is established cleansing = cure? I did a Google search, but the only thing I came up with was the skeptics annotated bible which simply has the exact same argument and christian response as here.

To cleanse means to clean. It can be used in more poetic ways like getting rid of evil, but i don't think it means cure.