Can people who disagree on abortion stop attacking each other?

[Belk]

You don't ask your body for consent. You understand how it works and take the needed steps to avoid things you don't want before they happen. You don't jump off a 2 story balcony and bemoan your broken ankles, you take the stairs and avoid breaking your ankles.

You don't ask your body for consent? What kind of a statement is that? Of course you don't ask it for consent. Consent requires a conscious choice. People give consent, not bodies.

Yet again you create an analogy where you substitute consequence for consent. They are two separate things.

 

[coffee4u]

You don't ask your body for consent? What kind of a statement is that? Of course you don't ask it for consent. Consent requires a conscious choice. People give consent, not bodies.

Yet again you create an analogy where you substitute consequence for consent. They are two separate things.

Because pregnancy is a consequence of your own actions.

 

[coffee4u]

If the railing fails and you fall off the stairs, you go the the hospital. Contraception are the steps one can take to avoid pregnancy. But if it fails, as it does at least 1% of the time, there are steps that can be taken.

And the steps taken are not to murder the innocent life. That life did not ask you to form it but once it is formed, it is formed.

The Zygote has all 7 markers that science uses to determ life, all seven.

 

[Belk]

Because pregnancy is a consequence of your own actions.

Generally yes. In the vast majority of cases pregnancy is the result of choosing to have sex. In some of those cases it is the result of chosing to have sex without birth control. None of that, however, means consent. Consent is when people have sex with the intention of getting pregnant.

 

[coffee4u]

Generally yes. In the vast majority of cases pregnancy is the result of choosing to have sex. In some of those cases it is the result of chosing to have sex without birth control. None of that, however, means consent. Consent is when people have sex with the intention of getting pregnant.

Spiting hairs.

 

[FireDragon76]

Today's contraceptions are 99% effective. Saying "many women using them get often pregnant" isn't backed up by the data.
The main purpose of sex is to produce offspring. That's how mammals reproduced for thousands of years. Pleasure is secondary, and doesn't remove the biological factor of it.
You are right, until a flawless contraception exists there will be unwanted human beings. But if everyone used contraceptions the number of abortions would drop drastically. And even an unwanted human being doesn't necessarily have to be killed. There are entire lists of people wishing to adopt a child.

In Europe we don't have such a rule The point of birth is a very arbitrary point. There is virtually no difference between a 9-months old baby in the womb a day before birth and a 9-months old baby outside the womb a day after birth. Please explain why it is okay to end the life of the baby on one end of the birth canal but not on the other.


Biology is not sexism Do you really think it is reasonable to blame the government for the fact that children are carried out by women and not by men?
Also, men don't have full bodily autonomy either. Who do you think is being enlisted in times of war? The government has the right to demand the body of their people in order to keep the society alive: the men's bodies to defend it, and the women's bodies to ensure the next generation (with the slight difference that men are forced to put their life on the line while women are not forced to get pregant in the first place).

Unlike most other animals, human females have hidden estrus. Sex in human beings evolved to be also about social bonding and family formation, and not just procreation. So sex shouldn't be seen as necessarily consenting to pregnancy.

 

[Hans Blaster]

Spiting hairs.

These hairs are important when people (like you) claim that all instances of sexual intercourse are "consent to begin a pregnancy" if they are not.

As others have noted before in analogy, when I drive down the highway, I do not "consent" to being sideswiped by a drunk driver even though that is something than can and does happen. Similarly, having sex while using birth control knowing that it has a low percentage of failure is not consent to start a pregnancy.

 

[Belk]

Spiting hairs.

No, it is not. It is very important distinction. It is literally the difference between consensual sex and rape. It is also the difference between wanting to get pregnant and not wanting to get pregnant.

 

[NxNW]

And the steps taken are not to murder the innocent life.

Then your analogy fails, doesn't it?

That life did not ask you to form it but once it is formed, it is formed.

But it's not a human being. And even if it were somehow, human beings don't have the right to attach themselves to others without consent.

 

[coffee4u]

Then your analogy fails, doesn't it?


But it's not a human being. And even if it were somehow, human beings don't have the right to attach themselves to others without consent.

This is going no where except in circles.
1. It is for the last time a human being. It is not a pig or a cow. Two humans can only biologically make more humans.
2. it is a life form as it has each of the 7 factors determined by science for life.

3. Human beings at this stage of life do attach themselves to their mother. They are not the only life form to do so. All mammals attach themselves in this manner such as dogs and cats. Then you have marsupial mammals that are born naked and blind and only 2cm long that crawl over there mothers fur to a pouch and attach themselves to a teat. Human life has stages. When a baby is born it also 'attaches' itself to its parents or caregivers. It needs to be fed, bathed, dressed, keep warm, every small thing. Left alone on the floor it will die. When an accident occurs like two days ago and a 9 year old boy is in hospital in an induced coma from being stuck by lighting on a beach, he is attached to machines. They keep him breathing and feed him.

4. I am now quite sure that your wilful ignoring of the facts has everything to do with your agenda. You want it to not be human life and you want it to not be alive.
It is human life. But it is life that you feel is expendable and without worth.

 

[Diamond7]

Really? Which scientific textbook are you using that says a fetus is not an individual?

From a scientific perspective, a fetus is a distinct organism in the early stages of development, with its own unique DNA and the potential to develop into a fully formed human being.

 

[NxNW]

This is going no where except in circles.
1. It is for the last time a human being. It is not a pig or a cow. Two humans can only biologically make more humans.'

Two humans can biologically do many things other than make humans.

2. it is a life form as it has each of the 7 factors determined by science for life.

Life is not the same thing as human being.

3. Human beings at this stage of life do attach themselves to their mother.

There are no human beings at that stage.

It is human life. But it is life that you feel is expendable and without worth.

Human being and human life are two different things. An individual cell is living, but it's not a human being. Apparently you feel all the natural miscarriages are expendable and without worth, because you're not making an effort to prevent such miscarriages.

 

[coffee4u]

Two humans can biologically do many things other than make humans.

Life is not the same thing as human being.


There are no human beings at that stage.


Human being and human life are two different things. An individual cell is living, but it's not a human being. Apparently you feel all the natural miscarriages are expendable and without worth, because you're not making an effort to prevent such miscarriages.

"Two humans can biologically do many things other than make humans"
They can, but that is not what this thread is about.

"Life is not the same thing as human being."
It's a life and it is human. Its biologically impossible for the unborn baby to be anything other than human. Human beings can only bring forth other human beings, not cows.

"There are no human beings at that stage."
So you do believe they are cows.

"Human being and human life are two different things. An individual cell is living, but it's not a human being."
We are not talking about a skin cell here, the zygote is a human being. It not only has all 7 markers needed to be alive it contains all the genetic information that individual will ever have.

"Apparently you feel all the natural miscarriages are expendable and without worth, because you're not making an effort to prevent such miscarriages."

How on earth do you get "miscarried babies are expendable" from the pro life position? The pro life Christian position is all humans have worth from the moment of conception.

Exactly how do I, as a non medical person attempt to prevent miscarriages?

 

[NxNW]

"Life is not the same thing as human being."
It's a life and it is human. Its biologically impossible for the unborn baby to be anything other than human.

It's not a baby, either.

"There are no human beings at that stage."
So you do believe they are cows.

Why are you suddenly obsessed with cows?

Human being and human life are two different things. An individual cell is living, but it's not a human being."
We are not talking about a skin cell here, the zygote is a human being.

It doesn't have a brain or a heart or the capacity for sensory input. You cannot determine if it will split into twins or triplets, and without the ability to quantify it, it can't be human. Humans can be counted. Zygotes cannot.

"Apparently you feel all the natural miscarriages are expendable and without worth, because you're not making an effort to prevent such miscarriages."

How on earth do you get "miscarried babies are expendable" from the pro life position?

Because they make zero effort to prevent miscarriages, which makes me question their claim that they are pro-life.

The pro life Christian position is all humans have worth from the moment of conception.

Prove it.

Exactly how do I, as a non medical person attempt to prevent miscarriages?

How much money have you donated to that cause in the last month? The last year? The last decade?
How many letters have you written urging scientific research in this direction?
How many demonstrations have you organized for that cause?

If the answers are none, then I have my answer.

 

[coffee4u]

It's not a baby, either.



Why are you suddenly obsessed with cows?


It doesn't have a brain or a heart or the capacity for sensory input. You cannot determine if it will split into twins or triplets, and without the ability to quantify it, it can't be human. Humans can be counted. Zygotes cannot.

Because they make zero effort to prevent miscarriages, which makes me question their claim that they are pro-life.


Prove it.

How much money have you donated to that cause in the last month? The last year? The last decade?
How many letters have you written urging scientific research in this direction?
How many demonstrations have you organized for that cause?

If the answers are none, then I have my answer.

"It's not a baby, either."
It's a developing baby.

"Why are you suddenly obsessed with cows?"
We can swap to whatever you think the growing child is, a pig? A Dog? If it is not a human being what is it?

"It doesn't have a brain or a heart or the capacity for sensory input. You cannot determine if it will split into twins or triplets, and without the ability to quantify it, it can't be human. Humans can be counted. Zygotes cannot."
It has not got those structures yet, but all the plans and the DNA and information for those structures is contained within the zygote. It's hair colour, eye colour, sex, are all set at conception. Having or not having certain body parts is not what makes us human. The spirit God gave us is what makes us human and its what seperates us from all the other animals. Those structures will form quickly at the right time. The brain begins to develop at week 3 and by week 5 there is a heart beat. Obviously structures take time to form, they are not instantaneously there. That doesn't make the zygote any less human.

Miscarriage is not something that requires money.
An early miscarriage occurs because the baby has died or has something seriously wrong with it. It is a natural process God has put into place to stop the baby staying inside the mother causing her to be very ill.
Late miscarriage is due to incomplete cervix and there is already a cure for that, the woman gets a stitch next time she gets pregnant. if it was due to the mother having an abnormal shaped womb that can also be fxed.
What exactly are you wanting money to be spent on?

The only thing that truly matters is that God saw our unformed body, he sees us as us even then. You see nothing in the zygote because your spirit is also nothing. Nothing sees nothing.
1 Corinthians 2:14: The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.

 

[NxNW]

If it is not a human being what is it?

A question is not an argument.

It has not got those structures yet, but all the plans and the DNA and information for those structures is contained within the zygote.

A blueprint is not a skyscraper. An acorn is not an oak tree.

The spirit God gave us is what makes us human and its what seperates us from all the other animals.

I see no evidence that this 'spirit' exists, or that we are anything other than another animal with a bigger brain.

The brain begins to develop at week 3 and by week 5 there is a heart beat.

There there isn't, because there is not heart at that point. A pulse is not a heartbeat.

An early miscarriage occurs because the baby has died or has something seriously wrong with it. It is a natural process God has put into place to stop the baby staying inside the mother causing her to be very ill.

Considering that it happens 70% of the time, one wonders why a better process wasn't put in place.