Can one go through Jesus without realizing it?

[Open Heart]

I remember reading CS Lewis' "The Last Battle," in which there was a Calorman soldier who worshipped a demon God named Tash.

Now this was a goodhearted man, who had done many acts of love for Tash. In the book, he takes the Ape's challenge, saying he will go into the Stable and die, if it means he can meet "Tashlan" (the idea that Alsan and Tash are really the same deity) before he is killed.

This Calorman does indeed meet both Aslan (Christ) and Tash (the demon) in the Stable (which turns out to be a gateway into eternity) where Aslan KILLS Tash. The Calorman instantly realizes it is Aslan whom he loves, and he fully expects to be killed by Aslan.

But Alsan greets him with love and explains: no acts of love can be done for the evil of Tash, and no act of evil can be done for Christ. All acts of love are for Aslan, and all acts of evil are for Tash... Thus, though this man thought he was serving Tash, in fact he was serving Christ all his life.

What do you think of this? It means that someone raised Muslim or Buddhist or what have you may simply be CONFUSED, BUT ultimately end up in heaven even though on earth they were technically not a Christian. Do you agree or disagree? Why?

 

[Charlie24]

I remember reading CS Lewis' "The Last Battle," in which there was a Calorman soldier who worshipped a demon God named Tash.

Now this was a goodhearted man, who had done many acts of love for Tash. In the book, he takes the Ape's challenge, saying he will go into the Stable and die, if it means he can meet "Tashlan" (the idea that Alsan and Tash are really the same deity) before he is killed.

This Calorman does indeed meet both Aslan (Christ) and Tash (the demon) in the Stable (which turns out to be a gateway into eternity) where Aslan KILLS Tash. The Calorman instantly realizes it is Aslan whom he loves, and he fully expects to be killed by Aslan.

But Alsan greets him with love and explains: no acts of love can be done for the evil of Tash, and no act of evil can be done for Christ. All acts of love are for Aslan, and all acts of evil are for Tash... Thus, though this man thought he was serving Tash, in fact he was serving Christ all his life.

What do you think of this? It means that someone raised Muslim or Buddhist or what have you may simply be CONFUSED, BUT ultimately end up in heaven even though on earth they were technically not a Christian. Do you agree or disagree? Why?

Acts 4:12
Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

John 8:24
I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

There's no mistake about it! If you don't accept Jesus as Christ you will not see the kingdom of God. True Muslims and Buddhists do not accept Christ as the only way of salvation.

 

[Open Heart]

You are missing the point. The story CS Lewis presents offers an idea of salvation in Christ without realizing it in this world, and belief/realization upon the moment of death while there was simply confusion in this world.

Now if you grappled with that idea and still reject it, then yes you have answered my question.

Let's start with this question. Does someone who loves, love for Satan or for God? remember that "every one that loveth is born of God." 1 John 4:7 Let's use a good concrete example of love, someone that gave up their life to protect Jews from the Nazis. Greater love has no man than that, eh?

 

[Steeno7]

"An African tribesman observed the rituals and ceremonies of his fellow tribesman and thought to himself, I can see the things my people worship. I can see the trees and the land. I can see the stars and moon, and I can see the sun. But, who is it that made these things?

He held these things in his heart.

One day, in a place thousands of miles away, God was placing it in the heart of a missionary to go to a place he had never even heard of. After much prayer and with great trepidation, this person allowed God to lead him to this place.

God led him right to the tribesman who held the desire to know his Creator in his heart. Upon hearing the Gospel, he knew it to be truth, for it had been in his heart all along."



I forget where I first heard that story but it begs the question, had the missionary not gone to the tribesman would the tribesman have been saved? I would like to think so, but I don't think we can say with certainty....which is why we go into the world to preach the good news of Christ.

 

[Steeno7]

Let's start with this question. Does someone who loves, love for Satan or for God? remember that "every one that loveth is born of God." 1 John 4:7 Let's use a good concrete example of love, someone that gave up their life to protect Jews from the Nazis. Greater love has no man than that, eh?

God IS Love. Whenever His Holy character is expressed within His creation, it is necessarily He expressing it.

 

[Open Heart]

I forget where I first heard that story but it begs the question, had the missionary not gone to the tribesman would the tribesman have been saved? I would like to think so, but I don't think we can say with certainty....which is why we go into the world to preach the good news of Christ.

It's a very difficult question, isn't it? I know where I come down on it, but I don't blame people for struggling with it, because it was a struggle for me. The Bible alone was insufficient to resolve the issue for me, as it appeared to have contradictory passages. CS Lewis helped me understand that there were going to be times I needed the Church to help me get some things.

 

[Charlie24]

You are missing the point. The story CS Lewis presents offers an idea of salvation in Christ without realizing it in this world, and belief/realization upon the moment of death while there was simply confusion in this world.

Now if you grappled with that idea and still reject it, then yes you have answered my question.

Let's start with this question. Does someone who loves, love for Satan or for God? remember that "every one that loveth is born of God." 1 John 4:7 Let's use a good concrete example of love, someone that gave up their life to protect Jews from the Nazis. Greater love has no man than that, eh?

There are many good Muslims. But how many of these good Muslims believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God? There are millions of good people (what we as people consider good) in hell!

I believe those who were predestined will be saved. I believe there is merit to his story.

 

[Open Heart]

I believe those who were predestined will be saved. I believe there is merit to his story.

Are you a calvinist, Charlie?

 

[Charlie24]

Are you a calvinist, Charlie?

No, I'm not! But I do believe in predestination.

The part the Calvinist teach that Christ only died for the predestined is the part I disagree with, and a few other things.

 

[Open Heart]

No, I'm not! But I do believe in predestination.

The part the Calvinist teach that Christ only died for the predestined is the part I disagree with, and a few other things.

Oh ok no problem. Just curious. I believe in the sort of predestination that is preknowledge. IOW, God predestined us based on his preknowledge of what our choices would be. There is no kind of random picking of who is and who isn't going to be the elect. Certainly there is no kind of random predestination to hell. That's the part of Calvinism that I find the most dispicable. At any rate, you can see that I value free will. If these things were truly decided by fate and not our own choices, then God would be unjust to punish us for things beyond our control.

In CS Lewis' story of the Calorman soldier, he very definitely places the soldier's willful choices (acts of love) above his "predestined" fate (being born a Calorman and raised in ignorance of Aslan).

 

[James Is Back]

What do you think of this? It means that someone raised Muslim or Buddhist or what have you may simply be CONFUSED, BUT ultimately end up in heaven even though on earth they were technically not a Christian. Do you agree or disagree? Why?

I disagree solely on the fact that only through Christ can one achieve Salvation. The Muslim or Buddhist does not have Salvation through Christ as they don't either believe in him or don't see him as the Savior.

 

[Marvin Knox]

Men have always been saved in one way. They have been saved "by grace through faith".

By grace because men do not seek God and because they cannot believe God's truth in that they are natural men and it cannot be understood by them. God must act supernaturally in them in order for them to see the truth.

They are justified through faith. God apparently feels that since it was lack of faith that caused the fall it must be faith that justifies.

No man will find final peace with God and access to God except through Christ's finished work. That is true of those who lived before the flood, between the flood and Christ, in Israel or as a gentile.

Saving faith must be exercised to please God. Their faith is exercised in each age and case according to the revelation that person has of God's truth.

That's the way it was before Christ and that's the way it is after Christ's work was done.

This being the case - one can always hope that many people in this world will be saved through faith in what has been revealed to them even if the gospel in it's fullness hasn't been preached to them.

But it does appear from the N.T. writings that it will likely be necessary for men in this age to hear and receive the gospel itself to be saved.

I'm hoping that men far off, say, in the jungles etc. can have Christ's finished work imputed to them based on the faith they have in what has been revealed to them.

But I'm not holding back on financing the spread of the gospel to all nations.

I believe they must receive and believe the finished gospel to be saved. But I'm holding out some hope anyway.

 

[muddleglum]

Let's start with this question. Does someone who loves, love for Satan or for God? remember that "every one that loveth is born of God." 1 John 4:7 Let's use a good concrete example of love, someone that gave up their life to protect Jews from the Nazis. Greater love has no man than that, eh?

I like Lewis, but that is the one point I don't think is good. However, I see where he is coming from.

You'll have to be a bit more expansive with your example. But first, I'll have to point out that there are several Greek words for love. The scripture you point out uses agape love. Are you speaking of Godly love? If you are, then that is the answer to your question above. You cannot agape for Satan. Another question that comes to mind is if you are abiding in Christ? If you abide in Christ, then you are able to love like Christ because you have the mind of Christ.

If it doesn't matter what one believes than why did Christ even come into the world? Why should we be sent into the world to preach the Gospel?

A Moslem cannot be saved because they have been taught that Christ cannot save and therefore reject Him. Some find their way to Him anyway. A Buddhist cannot be saved because he works by his flesh to conquer his flesh. BTW, I respect the Buddha teachings on desires, but not their remedy.

In the end, we should be abiding in Christ so that the world can see Him. When He is lifted up, He will draw all men to Himself. Then they can decide if they want to go the rest of the way "into" Him and abide.

 

[muddleglum]

Do you agree or disagree? Why?

I should also give you a bit of my background.
I was an atheist skeptic and read the works of many religions and philosophies. I saved Christianity for one of the last because it seemed like a large job. After I graduated and got a job, I had time to read their founding documents. I didn't trust anyone to give me the straight truth. I got an easy reading bible (Heh, The Living Bible, but what did I know?) and started reading it. Funny thing, soon a presence started pointing out things to me--none which were very comfortable. Not long after that, I was reading night after night, on my knees. No, I wasn't praying, but wrestling. So I had to acknowledge that there was a God. Yet, I was still able to turn away from these sessions. He told me that.

Eventually I was logically cornered and, with the very bad grace of a sore loser, surrendered to God mainly, but telling Him that I would accept the need for Christ provisionally. I had no idea what Christianity was all about. At that time I believe I was a Christian or saved. Lewis became a staple in my religious diet and I also learned through the Episcopal writer, Stott, more about what Jesus did on the cross. That was when I started understanding, but it was through God's Spirit, not my intelligence. As a matter-of-fact, at that time He was draining all my preconceptions away from me.

So I'm saying that there can be a time of confusion when one is really a baby. That fits a bit into what you are saying, but certainly not so far as Lewis was thinking.

 

[A New Dawn]

I remember reading CS Lewis' "The Last Battle," in which there was a Calorman soldier who worshipped a demon God named Tash.

Now this was a goodhearted man, who had done many acts of love for Tash. In the book, he takes the Ape's challenge, saying he will go into the Stable and die, if it means he can meet "Tashlan" (the idea that Alsan and Tash are really the same deity) before he is killed.

This Calorman does indeed meet both Aslan (Christ) and Tash (the demon) in the Stable (which turns out to be a gateway into eternity) where Aslan KILLS Tash. The Calorman instantly realizes it is Aslan whom he loves, and he fully expects to be killed by Aslan.

But Alsan greets him with love and explains: no acts of love can be done for the evil of Tash, and no act of evil can be done for Christ. All acts of love are for Aslan, and all acts of evil are for Tash... Thus, though this man thought he was serving Tash, in fact he was serving Christ all his life.

What do you think of this? It means that someone raised Muslim or Buddhist or what have you may simply be CONFUSED, BUT ultimately end up in heaven even though on earth they were technically not a Christian. Do you agree or disagree? Why?

I think the Chronicles of Narnia, while good for children to help start the process of understanding the mysteries of God, is not a set of books one can use to come to deep theological conclusions for this simple reason: It seems that C. S. Lewis changed his POV over the course of time he wrote the books. In book one, his main theme (and one I believe to be true) was "Once a king or queen of Narnia, always a king or queen of Narnia". But by the last book, Susan had denied her testimony, and therefore was not brought into Narnia at the last battle. That is an about-face.

As far as the question you ask, it makes an appeal to your heart rather than the scriptures. Gosh! It would be great if all the people who did good things in the world, whether they believed in Christ, or not, would be saved. That sounds awesome! But the scriptures paint a different picture. That one must have faith in Christ to be saved. A different question might be, could the unknown God be Christ? I'm not sure there is much to go on to come to an answer to that question.

 

[Open Heart]

A different question might be, could the unknown God be Christ? I'm not sure there is much to go on to come to an answer to that question.

Exactly. I think Paul posed that question, and never really answered it.

 

[Open Heart]

muddleglum, thank you for sharing your story.

 

[Open Heart]

You'll have to be a bit more expansive with your example. But first, I'll have to point out that there are several Greek words for love. The scripture you point out uses agape love. Are you speaking of Godly love? If you are, then that is the answer to your question above. You cannot agape for Satan.

Yes, I'm talking of agape love. Here is the thing: you can be a non-Christian and agape love others. There were muslims who risked their lives to assist Jews during WW2. Here is one:

Abdol-Hossein Sardari used his position at the Iranian consulate in Paris to help thousands of Jews evade Nazi capture. Later dubbed the Iranian Schindler, he convinced the occupying Germans that Iranians were Aryans and that the Jews of Iran had been Iranian since the days of Cyrus the Great — and, therefore, should not be persecuted. Then he issued hundreds of Iranian passports to non-Iranian Jews and saved their lives. Meet the Muslims who sacrificed themselves to save Jews and fight Nazis in World War II - The Washington Post

That is what I call agape love. Had his deceit been found out, he would have been shipped to a concentration camp and likely died. He put his own life on the line.

 

[hedrick]

Even the Bible isn't as unambiguous as some would like. Rom 2 gives a rationale for salvation of non-Christians. And Paul's example of faith is Abraham, whose faith could only in a very indirect way be faith in Christ. Some of Jesus' parables imply that what matters is if you do what he said, even if you don't accept him personally. This isn't the whole story, but it's part of it. Similarly Mat 12:50.

I agree with Lewis. Only followers of Jesus will be saved. But Jesus may recognize people as followers who we wouldn't expect (and deny some that we would).

Note that I am not claiming anything so stupid as the idea that all religions lead the same place. Lewis denied that quite clearly. The Calorman religion and culture did not lead to Aslan. But still, Aslan had followers among them.

 

[Open Heart]

Even the Bible isn't as unambiguous as some would like. Rom 2 gives a rationale for salvation of non-Christians. And Paul's example of faith is Abraham, whose faith could only in a very indirect way be faith in Christ. Some of Jesus' parables imply that what matters is if you do what he said, even if you don't accept him personally. This isn't the whole story, but it's part of it. Similarly Mat 12:50.

I agree with Lewis. Only followers of Jesus will be saved. But Jesus may recognize people as followers who we wouldn't expect (and deny some that we would).

Note that I am not claiming anything so stupid as the idea that all religions lead the same place. Lewis denied that quite clearly. The Calorman religion and culture did not lead to Aslan. But still, Aslan had followers among them.

A vote for the other side!