Can one go through Jesus without realizing it?

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Multiplying and being stewards of creation have nothing to do with going to heaven.


It helps if we realise that the people in the text are dealing with metaphysical issues and describing their situation with language that is current to their situation. In the ANE, a largely agrarian culture, the terms employed would be common to that culture, using land, planting, crops, trees, gardens, springs to describe God's dealings . For example, when the term rest is used, it means enjoying the fruits of one's labour. Just as a gardener sits back and enjoys the flowers and ultimately the fruit that result from his efforts, God rested, waited for fruit.


When God saw Sarah taking steps to bring to fruition the free gift He promised Abraham, using Hagar, He must have thought, "Shucks, why'd she go and do that? She's jest askin' for a heap load of trouble!"


According to the text, that's what God thought, when Israel set about bringing to fruition the free gift God promised Abraham.


In today's modern, industrial world, the situation of law is the situation a mechanic is in when he is hired to put together a car. At the end of the day, all he has is a paycheck.


The situation of grace is when a Son is given, who puts together the car. At the end of the day, he gets, inherits the car. Puts a whole new twist to the phrase, "law written on his heart".
 
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Open Heart

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It helps if we realise that the people in the text are dealing with metaphysical issues and describing their situation with language that is current to their situation. In the ANE, a largely agrarian culture, the terms employed would be common to that culture, using land, planting, crops, trees, gardens, springs to describe God's dealings . For example, when the term rest is used, it means enjoying the fruits of one's labour. Just as a gardener sits back and enjoys the flowers and ultimately the fruit that result from his efforts, God rested, waited for fruit.


When God saw Sarah taking steps to bring to fruition the free gift He promised Abraham, using Hagar, He must have thought, "Shucks, why'd she go and do that? She's jest askin' for a heap load of trouble!"


According to the text, that's what God thought, when Israel set about bringing to fruition the free gift God promised Abraham.


In today's modern, industrial world, the situation of law is the situation a mechanic is in when he is hired to put together a car. At the end of the day, all he has is a paycheck.


The situation of grace is when a Son is given, who puts together the car. At the end of the day, he gets, inherits the car. Puts a whole new twist to the phrase, "law written on his heart".
None of this refutes my point.
 
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Open Heart

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What could the NT believers do with what they received?
What NT believers received was KNOWLEDGE, the knowledge of the mechanism of how grace worked, through the sacrificial atonement of Christ. I think knowing helps, don't you?
 
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What NT believers received was KNOWLEDGE, the knowledge of the mechanism of how grace worked, through the sacrificial atonement of Christ. I think knowing helps, don't you?


Remember what I said about what the Son, the new humanity was doing? Putting together that hot rod? To finally take rest in, from own effort, to not walk anymore in order to get from point A to point B, to ride, to enjoy the fruit of one's own labor? IOW, complete what Adam started, subdue creation.


Only thing is, we have to compensate for the extra damage done since then, atone for the sins committed, which as kinsman redeemer we are eligible to do, with our grace empowered bodies:


Colossians 1:24Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I do my share on behalf of His body, which is the church, in filling up what is lacking in Christ's afflictions.



Hebrews 10:5Therefore, when He comes into the world, He says, “SACRIFICE AND OFFERING YOU HAVE NOT DESIRED, BUT A BODY YOU HAVE PREPARED FOR ME; 6IN WHOLE BURNT OFFERINGS AND sacrifices FOR SIN YOU HAVE TAKEN NO PLEASURE. 7“THEN I SAID, ‘BEHOLD, I HAVE COME (IN THE SCROLL OF THE BOOK IT IS WRITTEN OF ME) TO DO YOUR WILL, O GOD.’”8After saying above, “SACRIFICES AND OFFERINGS AND WHOLE BURNT OFFERINGS AND sacrifices FOR SIN YOU HAVE NOT DESIRED, NOR HAVE YOU TAKEN PLEASURE in them” (which are offered according to the Law), 9then He said, “BEHOLD, I HAVE COME TO DO YOUR WILL.” He takes away the first in order to establish the second. 10By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11Every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins; 12but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, SAT DOWN AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD, 13waiting from that time onward UNTIL HIS ENEMIES BE MADE A FOOTSTOOL FOR HIS FEET. 14For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified. 15And the Holy Spirit also testifies to us; for after saying, 16“THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THEM AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS UPON THEIR HEART, AND ON THEIR MIND I WILL WRITE THEM,” He then says, 17“AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE.”


Hebrews 2:9But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone. 10For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things, and through whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to perfect the author of their salvation through sufferings. 11For both He who sanctifies and those who are sanctified are all from one Father; for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren,12saying, “I WILL PROCLAIM YOUR NAME TO MY BRETHREN, IN THE MIDST OF THE CONGREGATION I WILL SING YOUR PRAISE.”13And again, “I WILL PUT MY TRUST IN HIM.” And again, “BEHOLD, I AND THE CHILDREN WHOM GOD HAS GIVEN ME.” 14Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, 15and might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives. 16For assuredly He does not give help to angels, but He gives help to the descendant of Abraham. 17Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. 18For since He Himself was tempted in that which He has suffered, He is able to come to the aid of those who are tempted.


Romans 8:18I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. 19For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. 20For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21thath the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.

22We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time.23Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies.
 
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Again, when Israel acted disbelievingly, God did not stop her, just as He did not stop Sarah. In fact, God brought Hagar back to Abraham's camp when Sarah tried to drive her away.


Similarly, when Israel asked for the law, God decided to use Israel for a different purpose, to be an oracle bearer, reveal to the world His plan of salvation, His Messiah, His Way and how people should serve Him. These were types, shadows of a future reality. If Israel obeyed the law, she would be saved, justified, but not sanctified. The sacrifices were revelations of how believers in the future would be sanctified and how faith had to be manifested by disciples.


Israel studied scripture because they believed it had the word of eternal life, but the words pointed to the work of Christ, the righteousness of God, His faithfulness to His promise to Abraham, His just, righteous fulfilment of an obligation, not to a righteousness of her own, a result of her efforts.


A question arises. Did God intend for His commands to be viewed that way? Were the heroes of faith to understand that the promised land was only a type of the new humanity, that the old humanity was not their real intended body, that God had always intended for Adam to have a heavenly city, a heavenly body?



Hebrews 11:13All these died in faith, without receiving the promises, but having seen them and having welcomed them from a distance, and having confessed that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. 14For those who say such things make it clear that they are seeking a country of their own. 15And indeed if they had been thinking of that country from which they went out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God; for He has prepared a city for them.


Were believers to understand that abiding in Christ was possible only by offering their bodies as living sacrifices, when they read this:


2 Kings 17:24The king of Assyria brought men from Babylon and from Cuthah and from Avva and from Hamath and Sepharvaim, and settled them in the cities of Samaria in place of the sons of Israel. So they possessed Samaria and lived in its cities. 25At the beginning of their living there, they did not fear the LORD; therefore the LORD sent lions among them which killed some of them. 26So they spoke to the king of Assyria, saying, “The nations whom you have carried away into exile in the cities of Samaria do not know the custom of the god of the land; so he has sent lions among them, and behold, they kill them because they do not know the custom of the god of the land.” 27Then the king of Assyria commanded, saying, “Take there one of the priests whom you carried away into exile and let him go and live there; and let him teach them the custom of the god of the land.” 28So one of the priests whom they had carried away into exile from Samaria came and lived at Bethel, and taught them how they should fear the LORD.



Well Paul taught that Scripture had to be read and understood spiritually:



1 Corinthians 9:9For it is written in the Law of Moses, "YOU SHALL NOT MUZZLE THE OX WHILE HE IS THRESHING." God is not concerned about oxen, is He?



In summary, God intended the Law to be "performed" to inform Gentiles about His plan of salvation.



God intended the Law to be obeyed, to humble and to make its observers turn to God out of failure, and be justified, because He always answers when called, as the publican found out.


Israel's mistakes:


She thought messianic descriptions pointed to her, her faithfulness, a righteousness of her own. But it was the the righteousness of God, dikaiosune theou, the faithfulness of God, which she had not believed and rested in.


Israel replaced the law, which was meant to humble, with tradition, which was a source of pride, because she believed she had been given possession by God because she was great, in spite of evidence to the contrary, given by the prophets.
 
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marawuti

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It doesn't apply. Your stages are incorrect. Step 2 is wrong. Ninevah did not fail in Repentance.

You've referred to Ninevah before as if this is substantial argument for salvation. I believe you have the salvation of a nation (temporal) confused with personal salvation. Repentance alone is insufficient except for a nation.
And, the stages are correct from a human analytical point of view. I don't find any such transactional analysis in scripture.
 
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Open Heart

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You've referred to Ninevah before as if this is substantial argument for salvation. I believe you have the salvation of a nation (temporal) confused with personal salvation. Repentance alone is insufficient except for a nation.
And, the stages are correct from a human analytical point of view. I don't find any such transactional analysis in scripture.
A nation is simply a collection of persons.
 
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marawuti

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A nation is simply a collection of persons.

Not sure how to take that. Are you saying whole nations can receive eternal salvation?

Nineveh was not saved in the eternal sense. God relented of the disaster He had planned for the city Jonah 3:10.
 
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Open Heart

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Not sure how to take that. Are you saying whole nations can receive eternal salvation?
The individuals in them can. For example, Romans 11:26 All Israel shall be saved = Romans 11:28 as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs
 
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marawuti

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Remember what I said about what the Son, the new humanity was doing? Putting together that hot rod? To finally take rest in, from own effort, to not walk anymore in order to get from point A to point B, to ride, to enjoy the fruit of one's own labor? IOW, complete what Adam started, subdue creation.


Only thing is, we have to compensate for the extra damage done since then, atone for the sins committed, which as kinsman redeemer we are eligible to do, with our grace empowered bodies:
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In my experience metaphors or analogies usually cause problems when it comes to doctrine. God hasn't promised us a Cherry ride that I've seen. It appears that you are asserting a doctrine of the living saints being kinsman redeemers for what? Creation? The provided passages don't seem to establish such a doctrine.

You lost me. Can you clarify?
 
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Wordkeeper

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In my experience metaphors or analogies usually cause problems when it comes to doctrine. God hasn't promised us a Cherry ride that I've seen. It appears that you are asserting a doctrine of the living saints being kinsman redeemers for what? Creation? The provided passages don't seem to establish such a doctrine.

You lost me. Can you clarify?

Colossians 1:24Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I do my share on behalf of His body, which is the church, in filling up what is lacking in Christ's afflictions.


How do I do my share?



By sharing in Christ's afflictions:

Romans 8:17Now if we are children, then we are heirs--heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.Romans 8:18I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us.2 Corinthians 1:5For just as we share abundantly in the sufferings of Christ, so also our comfort abounds through Christ.2 Corinthians 4:10We always carry around in our body the death of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus may also be revealed in our body.Philippians 3:10I want to know Christ--yes, to know the power of his resurrection and participation in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death,2 Timothy 2:12if we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us;



What did Christ's afflictions accomplish?


Compensation. Two things must happen when a criminal is apprehended: expiation and propitiation.


The bank must be returned their loss. The crime has been expiated, restored to a condition of never having happened.


The criminal must serve jail time. The system of justice has been served. Deterrence has been enacted. Banks can operate, satisfied that security, law and order has been enforced, the conditions are amenable to doing business. Society can function, secure in the thought that action has been taken to ensure the crime will not be repeated. Propitiation has happened.


Christ qualified himself to represent the old humanity:



Hebrews 2:14Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, 15and might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives.


What can the death of one man accomplish?


It satisfies justice of the wages of sin required from him.


Numbers 35:30If anyone kills a person, the murderer shall be put to death at the evidence of witnesses, but no person shall be put to death on the testimony of one witness.



What is required to satisfy the justice required for the sins of all humanity?


The death of a man without blemish:


Hebrews 7:23Now there have been many of those priests, since death prevented them from continuing in office; 24but because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood. 25Therefore he is able to save completelyc those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.26Such a high priest truly meets our need—one who is holy, blameless, pure, set apart from sinners, exalted above the heavens. 27Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself. 28For the law appoints as high priests men in all their weakness; but the oath, which came after the law, appointed the Son, who has been made perfect forever.http://www.frame-poythress.org/ebooks/the-shadow-of-christ-in-the-law-of-moses/QuoteWe may return to the same conclusion that we reached before: the sacrifice of animals is inadequate to achieve final cleansing, nor can it cleanse anything more than the copies of heavenly things. Then who will bring the definitive sacrifice? A man must do it. A similar point is made indirectly in Num. 35:33-34: “Do not pollute the land where you are. Bloodshed pollutes the land, and atonement cannot be made for the land on which blood has been shed, except by the blood of the one who shed it. Do not defile the land where you live and where I dwell, for I, the LORD, dwell among the Israelites.” When a man had shed blood, the man must die. But there is one exception, when the blood of the death of the high priest releases a manslaughterer to return home (Num. 35:25-28). The blood of the high priest has special value. In agreement with this principle, Zech. 3 uses all the symbolism of a defiled human high priest Joshua and then speaks mysteriously of the Branch in connection with which “I will remove the sin of this land in a single day” (Zech. 3:9).






How could Adam subdue creation?


By walking with God:


Genesis 1:27So God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them.28God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground.”


What happened when Adam disobeyed God?


He was not able to subdue his body, nor could his descendants:



17To Adam he said, “Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, ‘You must not eat from it,’Genesus 3:17“Cursed is the ground because of you;through painful toil you will eat food from itall the days of your life.18It will produce thorns and thistles for you,and you will eat the plants of the field.19By the sweat of your browyou will eat your fooduntil you return to the ground,since from it you were taken;for dust you areand to dust you will return.”



What does satisfying justice accomplish:



The new man can walk with God, be in union with God again, by being in Christ:20“My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one— 23I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.


Therefore, resting in Christ enables us to share in Christ's work, compensation and subjugation. We are His Body, His presence, on earth.


This is how creation is completed, in partnership with, whilst walking with, Christ.
 
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marawuti

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Colossians 1:24Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I do my share on behalf of His body, which is the church, in filling up what is lacking in Christ's afflictions.

How do I do my share?


Better question – what does this imply about my or the Church's obligation(s) with respect to creation? Nothing. Paul says he is doing this on behalf of the Church.


I've chosen to place some of the contextual verses around your sequence of passages. They read entirely too much like the S. Baptist SS teachers I grew up with who fabricated erroneous doctrine by dancing through scripture for their purposes. Not saying that's what you're consciously doing but I needed the context to see where you were drawing from.


By sharing in Christ's afflictions:Romans 8:17-18 Now if we are children, then we are heirs--heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory. I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us.

2 Corinthians 1:5For just as we share abundantly in the sufferings of Christ, so also our comfort abounds through Christ. For just as Christ's sufferings overflow to us, so our comfort overflows through Christ. If we suffer, it is for your comfort and salvation. If we are comforted, it is for your comfort when you patiently endure the same sufferings that we are suffering.

2 Corinthians 4:10We always carry around in our body the death of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus may also be revealed in our body. While we are alive, we are constantly being handed over to death for Jesus' sake, so that the life of Jesus may be clearly shown in our dying bodies. And so death is at work in us, but life is at work in you.

Philipians 3:8-10 But whatever gain I had, counted as loss for the sake of Christ. Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth ofknowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith—I want to know Christ--yes, to know the power of his resurrection and participation in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death,

2 Timothy 2:12The saying is trustworthy, for: if we have died with him, we will also live with him;if we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us; if we are faithless, he remains faithful—for he cannot deny himself.

What did Christ's afflictions accomplish? The following is stricken because it is not Biblical. It is analogy and is no proper basis for doctrinal adjudication.
Compensation. Two things must happen when a criminal is apprehended: expiation and propitiation.The bank must be returned their loss. The crime has been expiated, restored to a condition of never having happened.The criminal must serve jail time. The system of justice has been served. Deterrence has been enacted. Banks can operate, satisfied that security, law and order has been enforced, the conditions are amenable to doing business. Society can function, secure in the thought that action has been taken to ensure the crime will not be repeated. Propitiation has happened.
Christ qualified himself to represent the old humanity: Not sure what you mean by represent, but your passage simply covers Christ's taking on human form and conquering satan and thus freeing us people.

Hebrews 2:14Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, and might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives.
What can the death of one man accomplish?
It satisfies justice of the wages of sin required from him.
Numbers 35:30If anyone kills a person, the murderer shall be put to death at the evidence of witnesses, but no person shall be put to death on the testimony of one witness.

What is required to satisfy the justice required for the sins of all humanity?
This is a nonsense or leading question implying that all of humanity is covered by Jesus' blood. Simply not scriptural y backed. Salvation is available to all people but a transaction is involved.

The death of a man without blemish:
Hebrews 7:23Now there have been many of those priests, since death prevented them from continuing in office; 24but because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood. 25Therefore he is able to save completelyc those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.26Such a high priest truly meets our need—one who is holy, blameless, pure, set apart from sinners, exalted above the heavens. 27Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself. 28For the law appoints as high priests men in all their weakness; but the oath, which came after the law, appointed the Son, who has been made perfect forever.http://www.frame-may return to the same conclusion that we reached before: the sacrifice of animals is inadequate to achieve final cleansing, nor can it cleanse anything more than the copies of heavenly things. Then who will bring the definitive sacrifice? A man must do it. A similar point is made indirectly in Num. 35:33-34: “Do not pollute the land where you are. Bloodshed pollutes the land, and atonement cannot be made for the land on which blood has been shed, except by the blood of the one who shed it. Do not defile the land where you live and where I dwell, for I, the LORD, dwell among the Israelites.” When a man had shed blood, the man must die. But there is one exception, when the blood of the death of the high priest releases a manslaughterer to return home (Num. 35:25-28). The blood of the high priest has special value. In agreement with this principle, Zech. 3 uses all the symbolism of a defiled human high priest Joshua and then speaks mysteriously of the Branch in connection with which “I will remove the sin of this land in a single day” (Zech. 3:9).




How could Adam subdue creation?
By walking with God:Genesis 1:27So God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them.28God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground.”
What happened when Adam disobeyed God?
He was not able to subdue his body, nor could his descendants:17To Adam he said, “Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, ‘You must not eat from it,’Genesus 3:17“Cursed is the ground because of you;through painful toil you will eat food from itall the days of your life.18It will produce thorns and thistles for you,and you will eat the plants of the field.19By the sweat of your browyou will eat your fooduntil you return to the ground,since from it you were taken;for dust you areand to dust you will return.”
What does satisfying justice accomplish:

Do you mean overcoming the temporal consequences of sin or the eternal? Or are you conflating these? Justice has recently become a highly overloaded term so I'd prefer a little more specificity.
The new man can walk with God, be in union with God again, by being in Christ:

John 17:20“My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one— 23I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.

Therefore, resting in Christ enables us to share in Christ's work, compensation and subjugation. We are His Body, His presence, on earth.


This is how creation is completed, in partnership with, whilst walking with, Christ.


Even conceding that we are His body in a tangible / temporal sense you apparently have a much different take on what the Church's work is. You are inventing the task of “completing creation”. I see nothing in the scripture (particularly those you've presented) that points to this as a task of the Church. We are to reveal His character to the world as we are sanctified while offering salvation.


BTW it's pretty clear that creation is going to be “remanufactured” so what is the purpose of all of this “completing creation” you put forward?
 
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Good critique. The points you raise can be explained, but require long posts, each maybe requiring its own thread. Instead of giving expanded answers, let's try to give you clues to the correct direction to go in reaching those answers.


Colossians 1:24Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I do my share on behalf of His body, which is the church, in filling up what is lacking in Christ's afflictions.How do I do my share?Better question – what does this imply about my or the Church's obligation(s) with respect to creation? Nothing. Paul says he is doing this on behalf of the Church.


The point is that what he is doing for the church is preparing it to serve, not preparing it to go to heaven. Good article to read on this issue:


http://content.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1710844,00.html


Quote


TIME: Has anyone you've talked to expressed disappointment at the loss of the old view? Wright: Yes, you might get disappointment in the case where somebody has recently gone through the death of somebody they love and they are wanting simply to be with them. And I'd say that's understandable. But the end of Revelation describes a marvelous human participation in God's plan. And in almost all cases, when I've explained this to people, there's a sense of excitement and a sense of, "Why haven't we been told this before?"
I've chosen to place some of the contextual verses around your sequence of passages. They read entirely too much like the S. Baptist SS teachers I grew up with who fabricated erroneous doctrine by dancing through scripture for their purposes. Not saying that's what you're consciously doing but I needed the context to see where you were drawing from.


There's a lot of criticism of prooftext ing or verse stringing, but proof texting is actually good. It's only when the verses are used out of context that it becomes bad. For example, there's no verse stating outright the existence of a triune God, the teaching has to be put together from disparate passages.
By sharing in Christ's afflictions:


Romans 8:17-18 Now if we are children, then we are heirs--heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory. I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us.2 Corinthians 1:5For just as we share abundantly in the sufferings of Christ, so also our comfort abounds through Christ. For just as Christ's sufferings overflow to us, so our comfort overflows through Christ. If we suffer, it is for your comfort and salvation. If we are comforted, it is for your comfort when you patiently endure the same sufferings that we are suffering.2 Corinthians 4:10We always carry around in our body the death of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus may also be revealed in our body. While we are alive, we are constantly being handed over to death for Jesus' sake, so that the life of Jesus may be clearly shown in our dying bodies. And so death is at work in us, but life is at work in you.Philipians 3:8-10 But whatever gain I had, counted as loss for the sake of Christ. Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith—I want to know Christ--yes, to know the power of his resurrection and participation in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death,2 Timothy 2:12The saying is trustworthy, for: if we have died with him, we will also live with him;if we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us; if we are faithless, he remains faithful—for he cannot deny himself.What did Christ's afflictions accomplish?


The following is stricken because it is not Biblical. It is analogy and is no proper basis for doctrinal adjudication.

Compensation. Two things must happen when a criminal is apprehended: expiation and propitiation.


The bank must be returned their loss. The crime has been expiated, restored to a condition of never having happened.The criminal must serve jail time. The system of justice has been served. Deterrence has been enacted. Banks can operate, satisfied that security, law and order has been enforced, the conditions are amenable to doing business. Society can function, secure in the thought that action has been taken to ensure the crime will not be repeated. Propitiation has happened.


People often say that Tyndale invented the word "atonement". Actually, it was an existing word that he coopted to express the Hebrew idea of Kippur. Today, atonement is being used to mean compensate when it's original meaning was to reconcile.


Reconciliation, making peace, could be brought about by compensation, abandoning claims for compensation, penal action (justice), forgiveness (mercy), even reformation.


What was the atonement? Was it victory over Satan, payment of ransom, moral influence?


It was all of that.


An analogy is blood. What does blood do? It carries oxygen and nutrients to the organs. So it sustains life.


But it also carries away waste.


It also carries disease and injury fighting blood cells and platelets.


It also maintains body temperature by distributing heat or carrying away heat.


The all encompassing description for blood function would then be "carrier, transporter, vector", yes?


Similar the all encompassing description for the atonement would be "reconciliation".


http://forward.com/culture/11632/at-one-ment-00488/


http://abmcg.blogspot.in/2013/02/atonement-richard-iii-shakespeare-and.html?m=1


QuoteThe word has sometimes been attributed as a coinage to William Tyndale, who used it in his rendering of 2 Cor 5:18 to the effect that God "hath given unto us the office to preach the atonement"; modern translations tend to refer to this as a "ministry of reconciliation" but the sense of what atonement means here is clear, and not expiatory.But in fact there are older uses than Tyndale, and remarkably the equal oldest instances are from no other work than Thomas More's History of Richard III; you can see them here. The sense there is certainly of reconciliation, and this is also what all the references in Shakespeare a century later are about. Richard III scores again in one of the bard's two uses of the term:...he desires to make atonement Betwixt the Duke of Gloucester and your brothers, And betwixt them and my lord chamberlain; And sent to warn them to his royal presence. (Richard III, Act 1, Scene 3)


Christ qualified himself to represent the old humanity:


Not sure what you mean by represent, but your passage simply covers Christ's taking on human form and conquering satan and thus freeing us people.Hebrews 2:14Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, and might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives.


The point is that an equivalence must be maintained, a symmetry supported. If a sentence of hard labour is given to a strong convict, it wouldn't be atoned for by someone offering to do it on his behalf unless that someone is equally strong. It would be a death penalty for a weak or sick person. Christ had to take on the same form of the entity under sentence. How could Adam sin and penalise all of humanity? By listening to the body of death, choosing to loose immunity, have knowledge of good and evil, just as teenagers lose immunity that minors possess when they attain majority. All this whilst in the garden, in union with God.


How could Christ obey and gain immunity? By subduing the body of death. In union with God.


Don't forget, union with God, eternal life, was what Christ set out to gain for the new humanity.


What can the death of one man accomplish?

It satisfies justice of the wages of sin required from him.

Numbers 35:30If anyone kills a person, the murderer shall be put to death at the evidence of witnesses, but no person shall be put to death on the testimony of one witness.What is required to satisfy the justice required for the sins of all humanity?

This is a nonsense or leading question implying that all of humanity is covered by Jesus' blood. Simply not scriptural y backed. Salvation is available to all people but a transaction is involved.


Nothing in my answer that implies universalism. I agree with the view of the atonement being effective for all but APPLICABLE only to the faithful.

The death of a man without blemish:

Hebrews 7:23Now there have been many of those priests, since death prevented them from continuing in office; 24but because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood. 25Therefore he is able to save completelyc those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.26Such a high priest truly meets our need—one who is holy, blameless, pure, set apart from sinners, exalted above the heavens. 27Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself. 28For the law appoints as high priests men in all their weakness; but the oath, which came after the law, appointed the Son, who has been made perfect forever.


http://www.frame


-may return to the same conclusion that we reached before: the sacrifice of animals is inadequate to achieve final cleansing, nor can it cleanse anything more than the copies of heavenly things. Then who will bring the definitive sacrifice? A man must do it. A similar point is made indirectly in Num. 35:33-34: “Do not pollute the land where you are. Bloodshed pollutes the land, and atonement cannot be made for the land on which blood has been shed, except by the blood of the one who shed it. Do not defile the land where you live and where I dwell, for I, the LORD, dwell among the Israelites.” When a man had shed blood, the man must die.


But there is one exception, when the blood of the death of the high priest releases a manslaughterer to return home (Num. 35:25-28). The blood of the high priest has special value. In agreement with this principle, Zech. 3 uses all the symbolism of a defiled human high priest Joshua and then speaks mysteriously of the Branch in connection with which “I will remove the sin of this land in a single day” (Zech. 3:9).How could Adam subdue creation?

By walking with God:Genesis 1:27So God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them.28God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground.”

What happened when Adam disobeyed God?

He was not able to subdue his body, nor could his descendants:17To Adam he said, “Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, ‘You must not eat from it,’Genesus 3:17“Cursed is the ground because of you;through painful toil you will eat food from itall the days of your life.18It will produce thorns and thistles for you,and you will eat the plants of the field.19By the sweat of your browyou will eat your fooduntil you return to the ground,since from it you were taken;for dust you areand to dust you will return.”

What does satisfying justice accomplish:Do you mean overcoming the temporal consequences of sin or the eternal? Or are you conflating these? Justice has recently become a highly overloaded term so I'd prefer a little more specificity.



The temporal is linked to the eternal. We all must face a judgment for the deeds we do whilst in this body. Christ's work gave us power to subdue the body of death, which is why Paul says thanks be to God in Rom 7. Now, now, subduing the deeds of the body enables living, having eternal life, working so that treasures in heaven may result. See how many times Paul uses the word "now" indicating what is different in the new covenant, in his writings:


Romans 5:6For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. 7For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die. 8But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. 10For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. 11And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.


The new man can walk with God, be in union with God again, by being in Christ:John 17:20“My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one— 23I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.Therefore, resting in Christ enables us to share in Christ's work, compensation and subjugation. We are His Body, His presence, on earth.This is how creation is completed, in partnership with, whilst walking with, Christ.Even conceding that we are His body in a tangible / temporal sense you apparently have a much different take on what the Church's work is. You are inventing the task of “completing creation”. I see nothing in the scripture (particularly those you've presented) that points to this as a task of the Church. We are to reveal His character to the world as we are sanctified while offering salvation.


See Wright's article.
BTW it's pretty clear that creation is going to be “remanufactured” so what is the purpose of all of this “completing creation” you put forward?


See Wright's article.
 
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The point is that what he is doing for the church is preparing it to serve, not preparing it to go to heaven. Good article to read on this issue:


http://content.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1710844,00.html

Well, Wright does a pretty good job of dividing the issues of the eschatological time line, but the new/reclaimed creation stuff is not at all convincing. It is a house of cards built by some very bright people for unclear reasons. My suspicion is that there is an emotional need to feel a contributor in the "heaven right here in England" heritage. [I'm sure I have that quote wrong. I couldn't quickly find that defunct doctrine online.]

The Time article did not address my query about God melting down creation and reforming it. I'll re-read it again later to make sure I didn't miss it. I take it on better scholarly authority than Wright that language on this event is pretty clear.

So, please pardon me if I go with basic hermoneutics - the best reading is the straight forward reading by those it was written to.
 
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Well, Wright does a pretty good job of dividing the issues of the eschatological time line, but the new/reclaimed creation stuff is not at all convincing. It is a house of cards built by some very bright people for unclear reasons. My suspicion is that there is an emotional need to feel a contributor in the "heaven right here in England" heritage. [I'm sure I have that quote wrong. I couldn't quickly find that defunct doctrine online.]
The Time article did not address my query about God melting down creation and reforming it. I'll re-read it again later to make sure I didn't miss it. I take it on better scholarly authority than Wright that language on this event is pretty clear.

So, please pardon me if I go with basic hermoneutics - the best reading is the straight forward reading by those it was written to.

See this is the problem with doctrine developed atomistically, it does not care to take into account seemingly contradictory evidence. For example, we are taught in the reformed churches that the Christian yoke is light, the burden is easy. The next Sunday, the preacher segues easily into teaching that we ought to take up our crosses daily and follow Christ. It does not bother him that the two do not agree, and I'm sure that the congregation is quite content to accept it. Jesus called this "laziness".


In our example, the preacher teaches that the believer will shed the material body, put on a spiritual body and go up to heaven. Why then is the earth renewed as well?


Greek dualism influenced doctrinal development when the power centres of the church moved to the West. In the latter, the aim of life is to be liberated from, to shed, the body, which is matter, therefore evil, and free the spirit, which is good, to ascend to heaven.


This line of thought, world view, is blatantly opposed to Scripture, cover to cover, where right from Genesis, God looked at creation, and called it ALL, good. Just as a garden is enjoyed in the observation of its progress, creation was to be enjoyed by God in watching it sprout, and flower and bear fruit and expand. In between there would be pruning and aligning, and even some uprooting of unproductive saplings, but even that is part of the enjoyment of the creative process. The positive, the successes, is appreciated more by the occurrence of the failings.


http://www.johnpiippo.com/2010/11/new-heavens-and-new-earth.html?m=1


Quote

What about passages in the Bible that speak of things being burned up and destroyed? Like 2 Peter 3:10-13 - "The day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare. Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells." The words "laid bare" can also be translated as "exposed." Some translations say "burned up," but literally the text does not say or mean that. This passage says there will be some unbelievable explosions in the heavens, "but I don't think it means that the whole earth is going to be destroyed. It's preferable to think that the earth will be changed and renewed." It's odd to think of God annihilating His creation. "It seems to give the devil the last word by scrapping what God created to be very good." Evil works will be burned up, but not the whole earth which will be, as we have seen, renewed.Grudem then spends time discussing what life will be like in the new heavens and earth, stressing the physicaliy of the place and our God-given creativity, inventiveness, and stewardship over the earth as exhilarating heavenly activity. The new earth will be a tremendous, endless place of discovery and creation for its inhabitants. It will far exceed the already-wondrous beauty of earth in its present, fallen condition. If you think strawberries are good now, wait until you taste them in the new earth!
 
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See this is the problem with doctrine developed atomistically, it does not care to take into account seemingly contradictory evidence. For example, we are taught in the reformed churches that the Christian yoke is light, the burden is easy.
This shouldn't be so hard to understand. Jesus was addressing the Jews. The yoke was the daily performance obligations of the Jews not the following erroneous connection to our call to suffering. Basic hermoneutics.

The next Sunday, the preacher segues easily into teaching that we ought to take up our crosses daily and follow Christ. It does not bother him that the two do not agree,
They agree quite well since they are orthogonal. Freedom from rituals for salvation vs. suffering with Christ because the world hates Him.

and I'm sure that the congregation is quite content to accept it. Jesus called this "laziness".
I missed that. Please point me to that passage.
This also sounds a little condescending to your brothers and sisters.

In our example, the preacher teaches that the believer will shed the material body, put on a spiritual body and go up to heaven. Why then is the earth renewed as well?
You should own that flawed example. Use "my" where you've invented it. I'm certainly not participating in the "our".

Greek dualism influenced doctrinal development when the power centres of the church moved to the West. In the latter, the aim of life is to be liberated from, to shed, the body, which is matter, therefore evil, and free the spirit, which is good, to ascend to heaven.

This line of thought, world view, is blatantly opposed to Scripture, cover to cover,
Only in your view.

What about passages in the Bible that speak of things being burned up and destroyed? Like 2 Peter 3:10-13 - "The day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare. Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat.
Did you get that? If the elements are melted in the heat where is the dirt?
But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells." The words "laid bare" can also be translated as "exposed."
I love the fall back "can be translated". If it doesn't fit with your world view lets just make a few tweaks here and there and build an edifice to suit our predisposition. Granted you can argue the same for me.

But, again, it's not the quibbles about melted, singed, or whatever that I find erroneous. It's the use of this set of small quibbles to build an artificial edifice. The Church now becomes responsible for the renewal of the planet.
You'd think such a significant obligation would be clearly stated somewhere in scripture.

Some translations say "burned up," but literally the text does not say or mean that.
I think we just covered this above - melted, burned up. But "literally the text does not say that"? Hmmm.
This passage says there will be some unbelievable explosions in the heavens, "but I don't think it means that the whole earth is going to be destroyed. It's preferable to think that the earth will be changed and renewed."
Really? "... It's preferable to think..." Even the linguistics are telling.

It's odd to think of God annihilating His creation.
What is odd about that? How many times has He sent Israel packing? Nah. It's just as much within God's personality as we see it in the OT & NT.

"It seems to give the devil the last word by scrapping what God created to be very good."
That is a humanistic, ego based argument. God will do what He wants and His power budget is unlimited.

Evil works will be burned up, but not the whole earth
no, we have seen quite the opposite
which will be, as we have seen, renewed.Grudem then spends time discussing what life will be like in the new heavens and earth, stressing the physicaliy of the place and our God-given creativity, inventiveness, and stewardship over the earth as exhilarating heavenly activity.
This characterization kind of resonates with my own musings, but

"What no eye has seen, nor ear heard,
nor the heart of man imagined,
what God has prepared for those who love him”

So, you think you can visualize the new heavens and earth? Don't think so.

The new earth will be a tremendous, endless place of discovery and creation for its inhabitants. It will far exceed the already-wondrous beauty of earth in its present, fallen condition. If you think strawberries are good now, wait until you taste them in the new earth!
What makes you think there will be strawberries? Just pulling your chain. It will be beyond our imaginations.
 
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This shouldn't be so hard to understand. Jesus was addressing the Jews. The yoke was the daily performance obligations of the Jews not the following erroneous connection to our call to suffering. Basic hermoneutics.


They agree quite well since they are orthogonal. Freedom from rituals for salvation vs. suffering with Christ because the world hates Him.


Yet the rich young ruler who breezed through the "obligations of the Jews", what Jesus called the minor requirements of the law, shrank when it came to follow the call to suffering:


Luke 14:33So then none of you can be My disciple who does not give up all his own possessions.
I missed that. Please point me to that passage.This also sounds a little condescending to your brothers and sisters.


The servants had been given revelations to study in order to edify the church and make it fit for serving Christ:


1 Corinthians 14:23What is the outcome then, brethren? When you assemble, each one has a psalm, has a teaching, has a revelation, has a tongue, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification.



Matthew 25:24“And the one also who had received the one talent came up and said, ‘Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow and gathering where you scattered no seed. 25‘And I was afraid, and went away and hid your talent in the ground. See, you have what is yours.’ 26“But his master answered and said to him, ‘You wicked, lazy slave, you knew that I reap where I did not sow and gather where I scattered no seed. 27‘Then you ought to have put my money in the bank, and on my arrival I would have received my money back with interest. 28‘Therefore take away the talent from him, and give it to the one who has the ten talents.’
You should own that flawed example. Use "my" where you've invented it. I'm certainly not participating in the "our".Only in your view.


This is the view taught in all the churches, which I am arguing against.
Did you get that? If the elements are melted in the heat where is the dirt?I love the fall back "can be translated". If it doesn't fit with your world view lets just make a few tweaks here and there and build an edifice to suit our predisposition. Granted you can argue the same for me.But, again, it's not the quibbles about melted, singed, or whatever that I find erroneous. It's the use of this set of small quibbles to build an artificial edifice. The Church now becomes responsible for the renewal of the planet.You'd think such a significant obligation would be clearly stated somewhere in scripture.


Please do a word study of the passage discussed.


That significant obligation you're mentioning is actually present in the text:


Romans 8:19For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. 20For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.
I think we just covered this above - melted, burned up. But "literally the text does not say that"? Hmmm.Really? "... It's preferable to think..." Even the linguistics are telling.


Do the word study and we'll go forward.
What is odd about that? How many times has He sent Israel packing? Nah. It's just as much within God's personality as we see it in the OT & NT.


God punished Israel. Why should He punish the earth? He said it was very good.

That is a humanistic, ego based argument. God will do what He wants and His power budget is unlimited.


Except contradict Himself.
no, we have seen quite the oppositeThis characterization kind of resonates with my own musings, but"What no eye has seen, nor ear heard,nor the heart of man imagined,what God has prepared for those who love him”So, you think you can visualize the new heavens and earth? Don't think so.What makes you think there will be strawberries? Just pulling your chain. It will be beyond our imaginations.


Absolutely.
 
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Yet the rich young ruler who breezed through the "obligations of the Jews", what Jesus called the minor requirements of the law, shrank when it came to follow the call to suffering:
Correction Jesus called them a yoke. He did not call them "minor requirements". But the point remains that your putative scenario from the pulpit still has no conflict in message as you proposed.

Luke 14:33So then none of you can be My disciple who does not give up all his own possessions.
Context context context - with your use of the last line of the paragraph as definitive by your selection we would all be required to hate our family (v 26). Jesus was preaching to the crowd to inform them that discipleship was not going to continue to be a free ride of healings and free meals.

The servants had been given revelations to study in order to edify the church and make it fit for serving Christ:


1 Corinthians 14:23What is the outcome then, brethren? When you assemble, each one has a psalm, has a teaching, has a revelation, has a tongue, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification.



Matthew 25:24“And the one also who had received the one talent came up and said, ‘Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow and gathering where you scattered no seed. 25‘And I was afraid, and went away and hid your talent in the ground. See, you have what is yours.’ 26“But his master answered and said to him, ‘You wicked, lazy slave, you knew that I reap where I did not sow and gather where I scattered no seed. 27‘Then you ought to have put my money in the bank, and on my arrival I would have received my money back with interest. 28‘Therefore take away the talent from him, and give it to the one who has the ten talents.’


This is the view taught in all the churches, which I am arguing against.
I'm sorry but I've got to be blunt. You need to publish something with some structure to your argument. I'm not trying to be hurtful, but so far it's a no sale.

Please do a word study of the passage discussed.
That's been done by others and I pointed out previously the cross grain meanings you've been depending on that came out of your own usages.
That significant obligation you're mentioning is actually present in the text:

Romans 8:19For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. 20For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.
Nah. That is no commandment or directive. It's an observation of the impact of sin. Sorry no sale there.
Do the word study and we'll go forward.


God punished Israel. Why should He punish the earth? He said it was very good.
Sounds almost like Gaia - the planet as personality to be a life provider and be nurtured and disciplined.
The earth could not be a target of discipline. Discipline / punishment implies sentience like the angels and us. Yeah yeah I know, the very stones would cry out.
Except contradict Himself.
But He can relent. So that's a pretty small linguistic box your building there.
 
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If we go with your views, we have a watered down version of the Gospel, the Gospel that reveals how we can now be the blessing to the world, as promised to Abraham, which was out of the reach of believers who participated in the old covenant. IOW, following your view, it's possible that we will face the dreaded words:


Matthew 7:23And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'


Moreover, the teaching is not as simplistic as you think.


Correction Jesus called them a yoke. He did not call them "minor requirements". But the point remains that your putative scenario from the pulpit still has no conflict in message as you proposed.

Here is where Christ called the observance of Law by the Jews as minor:


Matthew 23:23"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others.


Context context context - with your use of the last line of the paragraph as definitive by your selection we would all be required to hate our family (v 26). Jesus was preaching to the crowd to inform them that discipleship was not going to continue to be a free ride of healings and free meals.


Hate is a hebraism for love less, so we should definitely love our family less than we love God. See, it's not that simple. We need to know the world of the ANE, else we would understand the following as Jacob hating Leah. He didn't, he just loved her less:

Genesis 29:31When the LORD saw that Leah was hated, he opened her womb, but Rachel was barren.

I'm sorry but I've got to be blunt. You need to publish something with some structure to your argument. I'm not trying to be hurtful, but so far it's a no sale.


It's not simple. For example, the earth was declared good by God . Is it now declared unsuitable for believers:


Hebrews 11:31All these died in faith, without receiving the promises, but having seen them and having welcomed them from a distance, and having confessed that they were strangers and exiles on the earth.


?


No, obviously the reference is to the body of death. Man cannot accept that this rebellious body (of death) is the body God intended for the noble spirits of those who follow Him to dwell in.


God always planned for Adam to have knowledge of good and evil. However he had been handed a raw body that was supposed to mature into an obedient being. It's terrible to have knowledge of good and evil and then have it matched to an untamed body. God called it death.


A minor is immune from criminal prosecution because his critical faculty has not fully developed. Science has discovered that hormonal changes kicked off by puberty completes this development. That's why girls reach a state of better judgment faster than boys: they reach puberty faster.


Once Adam triggered of maturity, he lost immunity. He knew right from wrong. Ignorance, inability to judge critically, was no longer a defense. The same immunity available for the mentally handicapped, who have no critical ability. You do know that minors and the insane are immune from criminal prosecution right?


What does the untamed body do? It steals, it lies, it destroys. God gave Adam the minimum of control, else he would not have acceptable social behavior, would not have been able to get along with others. However, whilst the majority of the human population does not kill and destroy wantonly or deceitfully, it covets, hates, begrudges, albeit with a veneer of goodness.


Paul describes mankind's situation in Romans 7: that which he desires to do he does not do, but that which he does not desire to do, that is what he does. Therefore, it is not him doing the bad acts, but the rebellious body, of which he is an alien inhabitant. Who is going to free him from that body which can only lead to death? Thanks be to Christ, who has done exactly that. Adam could subdue the body whilst walking with God in the Garden everyday in the cool of the evening, but once he lost access to God because of culpability and possesing of the immature body, a deadly combination, pun intended, he lost the empowerment to so subdue that body. Now, now, in union with Christ, in Christ, because of the reconcilatory work of the Cross, God's people enjoy the gift, grace, of being saved from their sins:


Matthew 1:21And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

That's been done by others and I pointed out previously the cross grain meanings you've been depending on that came out of your own usages.

Grudem is no mean scholar and is coming out and joining with other top scholars like Witherington and Warnock in listing out the various misreadings of the Bible, stemming from contamination by Greek philosophy and bad hermeneutical methodology. I've previously posted on the damage done by the adoption of Common Sense Realism by Warfields, Chafer, et al and that post is a worthwhile read, to understand why theological studies had reached such lows. It's not beyond your reach, Christ teaching us that the Father will not give us snakes if we ask for fish, so will whole heartedly give us His Spirit, in getting to the truth of the matter.


Nah. That is no commandment or directive. It's an observation of the impact of sin. Sorry no sale there.


As Wright and other scholars of the ANE culture observed, Genesis 1 follows the format of the description of the building of a temple. The last step for the Temple Builder is to put the image of the Deity. The function of the image was to reveal, to all, the nature and the attributes of the Deity. Christ restored the abilty of man, made in the image of God, to so reveal that image, thereby operationalising the Temple. Apparently, it triggers of the completion of creation.


Sounds almost like Gaia - the planet as personality to be a life provider and be nurtured and disciplined. The earth could not be a target of discipline. Discipline / punishment implies sentience like the angels and us. Yeah yeah I know, the very stones would cry out.


Yes, do study the issue with the totality of Scripture in mind.


But He can relent. So that's a pretty small linguistic box your building there.


God repented of creating man, so yes, He can relent. I doubt the earth was disobedient, requiring relenting.
 
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