Can one go through Jesus without realizing it?

[Songsmith]

I remember reading CS Lewis' "The Last Battle," in which there was a Calorman soldier who worshipped a demon God named Tash.

Now this was a goodhearted man, who had done many acts of love for Tash. In the book, he takes the Ape's challenge, saying he will go into the Stable and die, if it means he can meet "Tashlan" (the idea that Alsan and Tash are really the same deity) before he is killed.

This Calorman does indeed meet both Aslan (Christ) and Tash (the demon) in the Stable (which turns out to be a gateway into eternity) where Aslan KILLS Tash. The Calorman instantly realizes it is Aslan whom he loves, and he fully expects to be killed by Aslan.

But Alsan greets him with love and explains: no acts of love can be done for the evil of Tash, and no act of evil can be done for Christ. All acts of love are for Aslan, and all acts of evil are for Tash... Thus, though this man thought he was serving Tash, in fact he was serving Christ all his life.

What do you think of this? It means that someone raised Muslim or Buddhist or what have you may simply be CONFUSED, BUT ultimately end up in heaven even though on earth they were technically not a Christian. Do you agree or disagree? Why?

I think that there is a complex answer to this question. For example, Paul was devoted to God with all his heart. He was zealous and faithful, and he was wrong about what God wanted for his life. Jesus presented himself to Paul and taught him the reality of who God is. S yes, you can apparently pursue God and be mistaken about who Hod is, but I also think that if you are truly seeking truth with all your heart that God will reveal himself to you much earlier than at the moment of death or translation.

 

[Light of the East]

Acts 4:12
Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

John 8:24
I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

There's no mistake about it! If you don't accept Jesus as Christ you will not see the kingdom of God. True Muslims and Buddhists do not accept Christ as the only way of salvation.

Rom 2:13 For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

Here is the answer to the OP. Paul says that those who do by nature the things of the law are a law unto themselves. The Holy Spirit places the law of love into their hearts and those who obey it are justified by doing so.

Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

Rom 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

It is through Christ Jesus that all men are saved. The means is not the Fundamentalist "accepting Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior." It is not that narrow. The love of God is more understanding and more desirous of saving all men than that.

 

[Open Heart]

yes, you can apparently pursue God and be mistaken about who Hod is, but I also think that if you are truly seeking truth with all your heart that God will reveal himself to you much earlier than at the moment of death or translation.

Certainly that happens sometimes. But always???? I don't think so.

 

[Open Heart]

Here is the answer to the OP. Paul says that those who do by nature the things of the law are a law unto themselves. The Holy Spirit places the law of love into their hearts and those who obey it are justified by doing so.
It is through Christ Jesus that all men are saved. The means is not the Fundamentalist "accepting Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior." It is not that narrow. The love of God is more understanding and more desirous of saving all men than that.

Thank you for your answer!

 

[FireDragon76]

I'd say C.S. Lewis' is stating a pious opinion, held by many Christians. But its certainly not a doctrine, the theology is not yet well developed enough for that kind of certainty.

There was a Roman Catholic theologian, Karl Rahner, a few decades ago that had the concept of an "anonymous Christian" which is similar to what Lewis is saying.

The only Asian country that doesn't have a sizeable number of Christians is Japan, and interestingly enough it has a widespread form of Buddhism that is similar in a few significant ways to Lutheranism or the Reformed faith, including a belief in something like the Calvinist TULIP. They don't use the term faith of course, they use the term shinjin (entrusting). They also deny that works have any role in meriting ones salvation. The preaching in these temples/churches is also similar to the law/gospel dialectic that Lutherans and some Reformed use. And to top it all off, the former monk that started the sect was very similar in his life story to Martin Luther, living only 200 years before him.

 

[Wordkeeper]

The topic is complex and people can easily fall into errors of conflating elements which should not be conflated. For example, justification and sanctification are two different issues and have different implications.

The best way to examine the topic is to lay out what happens in the process of salvation and then find out how different categories of people are affected by it.


Those who realise that this world is a preparatory stage for the next world, indicated by their understanding that to live this life to satisfy the goals of this life is futile, causing them to reach out to God to discover what pleases Him, these people are said to have changed their mind, metanoia, ambiguously termed " repented". They soon conclude that God requires them to live so as to harvest heavenly treasure, and they fail, because their flesh is weak, and they end up crying out to God for relief. These are justified. Their spirits are with God.

However great their rewards will be, the rewards to those who enter the kingdom of God, ushered in by Christ, will be greater. That is because Christ is the seed of Abraham through whom the world is blessed, meaning He is the one who removes the obstacle, save us from our body of death. Now it is possible to live the life that harvests eternal treasure. Their bodies will be resurrected.

Regroup

Old Covenant
Repent (turn from serving self, seeking treasure of this world, to serving God, seeking eternal treasure).
Fail (because of being hindered by this body of death).
Seek relief from God (fall on His mercy).
Become justified (God desires loyalty, obedience, not sacrifice, performance, because He loves a humble heart, which acknowledges the weakness of the flesh, inability to attain a righteousness of one's own doing).

New Covenant
Repent (turn from serving self, seeking treasure of this world, to serving God, seeking eternal treasure, demonstrated by asking for God's uniform, baptism).
Succeed (because of not being hindered by this body of death, which is being put to death, by believing God's grace, now available through Christ, demonstrated by confession, asking for the cleansing of revealed sin, by the blood of Gods Son).
Become sanctified.

You see here that the process is justification by belief, and sanctification by belief. We do not start out with belief and try to complete it through works. (God desires loyalty, obedience, not sacrifice, performance, because He loves a humble heart, which acknowledges the weakness of the flesh, inability to attain a righteousness of one's own doing, but on the promised righteousness that comes from God).

Now try to find out which category of salvation a Muslim or a Buddhist who follows God's requirements and fails and realizes his inability can be fitted into.

This method to find out a person's status works even though the new covenant is in force.

 

[Open Heart]

Old Covenant
Repent (turn from serving self, seeking treasure of this world, to serving God, seeking eternal treasure).
Fail (because of being hindered by this body of death).

I do not find it in the OT that people failed in repentance. Did Ninevah fail to repent? No.

 

[Wordkeeper]

I do not find it in the OT that people failed in repentance. Did Ninevah fail to repent? No.

The text is clear, justification is upon realizing one's own inadequacy, knowing one's limitation of being hindered by a body of death:

Luke 18:14“I tell you, this man went to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted.”

 

[Open Heart]

The text is clear, justification is upon realizing one's own inadequacy, knowing one's limitation of being hindered by a body of death:

What does that have to do with the price of tea in China?

 

[MoreCoffee]

.

 

[Open Heart]

What it means is that a fictional story can make an attempt to explain salvation and works of goodness without necessarily getting it right.

And yet the Catholic church church is unwilling to say that non=Christians such as Muslims, Atheists, and Jews are going to hell.

 

[MoreCoffee]

.

 

[Open Heart]

God is merciful and no man is to elevate himself to judge so the Church rightly keeps silence on what she cannot know but also wisely allows the Lord to speak in scripture and declare the truth to all. My earlier post alluded to the words of the apostles and of Christ.

It means she does not know that it is necessary to be a Christian to obtain eternal life, although you were claiming this very thing not to many posts ago.

The little eyelids are closing. I'll see you tomorrow, my friend.

 

[Wordkeeper]

What does that have to do with the price of tea in China?

Okay, the following are the stages of justification, now numbered to make it easier for you to differentiate. Please keep your eyes open so that you can tell me which stage the publican, the Pharisee and Nineveh had each reached:


1. Repent (turn from serving self, seeking treasure of this world, to serving God, seeking eternal treasure).

2. Fail (because of being hindered by this body of death).


3. Seek relief from God (fall on His mercy).

4. Become justified.

 

[Open Heart]

Okay, the following are the stages of justification, now numbered to make it easier for you to differentiate. Please keep your eyes open so that you can tell me which stage the publican, the Pharisee and Nineveh had each reached:


1. Repent (turn from serving self, seeking treasure of this world, to serving God, seeking eternal treasure).

2. Fail (because of being hindered by this body of death).


3. Seek relief from God (fall on His mercy).

4. Become justified.

It doesn't apply. Your stages are incorrect. Step 2 is wrong. Ninevah did not fail in Repentance.

 

[Wordkeeper]

It doesn't apply. Your stages are incorrect. Step 2 is wrong. Ninevah did not fail in Repentance.

When serving self, no one acknowledges the law. When serving God, we acknowledge the law and study it to try to be compliant. However, before the Cross, we are hampered by our body of death:


Romans 7:21I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. 22For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, 23but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members. 24Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?


Before the Cross, no one was set free from the body of death, so they could not serve God. John's baptism was a baptism of repentance, telling men to turn away from serving self to serving God, so that they would fail, turn to God for mercy and be found righteous, be justified.

Was Nineveh presented with the law of God? Whoever turns to serve God is presented with the law of God. Did Nineveh experience death at the hands of the law? Everyone experiences death at the hands of the law. Did Nineveh turn to God for mercy? There is no biblical record of this event.

All the descriptions of completed justification in the Old Covenant, the publican, Elizabeth, Zacharias, are justification through being loyal, being obedient to God when able and turning to God for mercy when not able.

 

[Light of the East]

Before the Cross, no one was set free from the body of death, so they could not serve God. John's baptism was a baptism of repentance, telling men to turn away from serving self to serving God, so that they would fail, turn to God for mercy and be found righteous, be justified.

All the descriptions of completed justification in the Old Covenant, the publican, Elizabeth, Zacharias, are justification through being loyal, being obedient to God when able and turning to God for mercy when not able.

Do you realize you just made two contradictory statements on the same page? You say that no one could serve God before the Cross, then you mention people in the Old Covenant who did serve God.

Would you care to clarify this for me?

 

[Wordkeeper]

Do you realize you just made two contradictory statements on the same page? You say that no one could serve God before the Cross, then you mention people in the Old Covenant who did serve God.

Would you care to clarify this for me?

How was Paul saved from his body of death?

Romans 7:24Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?

 

[Light of the East]

How was Paul saved from his body of death?

Romans 7:24Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?

Wow! Talk about giving me no answer at all. Go back and read what you wrote. In the first paragraph, you said that no one in the Old Covenant could serve God. In the second paragraph, you mention several people who you said did serve God, despite the fact that they are in the Old Covenant and before the Cross.

Instead of throwing up a scripture verse, would you care to actually EXPLAIN what you are talking about?

 

[Wordkeeper]

Wow! Talk about giving me no answer at all. Go back and read what you wrote. In the first paragraph, you said that no one in the Old Covenant could serve God. In the second paragraph, you mention several people who you said did serve God, despite the fact that they are in the Old Covenant and before the Cross.

Instead of throwing up a scripture verse, would you care to actually EXPLAIN what you are talking about?

Where is it mentioned that they were able to serve God?