Can Matthew 10:28 and Ezek 18:4 be believed just as they are written?

[BobRyan]

Like I said, you can back track it all you wish and make up a reason for why you stated what you stated which the background given in your post does not even match why Root of Jesse said what he said. The "guy" you claim was running around quoting ECFs was on your side of this thread and using a quote of an ECF in response to Jesse in order to ridicule our position, which still obviously escapes notice of even a tic-tac-toe champion. Imagine that.

You have your reasons for not being able to fess up to even having made an overstatement which reflects a deep seated indoctrination against the Church and I get. Peasce be with you.

False accusation and nonsense aside - the point remains - there is no way to misconstrue the "sola scriptura" doctrine - that says that all doctrine and tradition are to be tested by the Word of God -- into the nonsensical "if all are tested sola scriptura - then all doctrine and tradition must be false" --

So instead of blindly accepting all doctrine and tradition (even from ECFs) that comes along - we TEST them - sola scriptura and take the Bible over any doctrine or tradition that is found to be in contradiction to scripture.

As we all know. Irrefutable.

The point remains. And so we continue to affirm Christ's Mark 7:6-13 sola scriptura method.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

I've been watching this discussion from the sidelines, and I've got to say that you have a penchant for tormenting yourself with endless debate. The problem, here, is that the apparent jury in this debate would seem to be the opposing counsel, which means that the opponent can only lose if he wishes to. It's a hopeless cause, and you know it.

The facts, as I see it, say that

• Hell is a place of everlasting fire. Everlasting fire without an everlasting fuel makes no sense.

You are free to speculate as you wish.

I choose to take the texts on page one of this thread - "as they read"

 

[Root of Jesse]

Catholic Catechism

==================================

958 Communion with the dead. "In full consciousness of this communion of the whole Mystical Body of Jesus Christ, the Church in its pilgrim members, from the very earliest days of the Christian religion, has honored with great respect the memory of the dead; and 'because it is a holy and a wholesome thought to pray for the dead that they may be loosed from their sins' she offers her suffrages for them."500 Our prayer for them is capable not only of helping them, but also of making their intercession for us effective.

Praying for the dead is not praying to the dead.

 

[Root of Jesse]

False accusation and nonsense aside - the point remains - there is no way to misconstrue the "sola scriptura" doctrine - that says that all doctrine and tradition are to be tested by the Word of God -- into the nonsensical "if all are tested sola scriptura - then all doctrine and tradition must be false" --

So instead of blindly accepting all doctrine and tradition (even from ECFs) that comes along - we TEST them - sola scriptura and take the Bible over any doctrine or tradition that is found to be in contradiction to scripture.

As we all know. Irrefutable.

The point remains. And so we continue to affirm Christ's Mark 7:6-13 sola scriptura method.

in Christ,

Bob

Yes, and all our doctrines and Traditions are tested by the Word of God. So what's your beef? That you disagree that our doctrines are tested by the Word of God, or that you don't think the Word of God says what we say it says? In either case, it's your problem...

 

[BobRyan]

Yes, and all our doctrines and Traditions are tested by the Word of God. So what's your beef?

if that were true you would be supporting such a test - and the opportunity to show all the success you claim can be had in that case.

Instead every Catholic on the board seems to oppose such a test - as if they know the test would be a problem for the RCC.

 

[BobRyan]

Praying for the dead is not praying to the dead.

958 Communion with the dead. "In full consciousness of this communion of the whole Mystical Body of Jesus Christ, the Church in its pilgrim members, from the very earliest days of the Christian religion, has honored with great respect the memory of the dead; and 'because it is a holy and a wholesome thought to pray for the dead that they may be loosed from their sins' she offers her suffrages for them."500 Our prayer for them is capable not only of helping them, but also of making their intercession for us effective

Communion WITH the dead includes praying TO the dead.

==================================

Catholic Digest 9/1993 pg 129

Question:
“My husband has been transferred to Japan and we have been here in Hiroshima for about two months. On a site seeing tour the Japanese guide brought me to a Buddhist shrine. There were statues of Buddha everywhere. The guide told me they represented different aspects of life and that the people offer food to the Buddhas and ask for Favors. It made me think of Our Catholic praying to the saints and wonder whether they have anything like the Ten Commandments to guide them.

There were fountains at the gate where pious visitors washed their hands before entering the shrine grounds. Could this be the same as our holy water?”

Ans:
“Very probably the physical washing signifies some kind of spiritual cleansing, AS it does with Us! Some Muslims say prayers on rosarylike beads Just as We do, so there is no copyright enforced on prayerful customs among the great world religions. The Pagan Romans prayed, each family to its Own household gods, JUST as we do to our patron saints. In Old Testament times the gentile had local gods for their town or country, and our Christian Saints eventually supplanted Them!

The Hebrews, of Course, had the mission of Wiping Out such heathen worship with the worship of the one true God, and while they have always had great respect for spiritual heroes, they Never set up any of their own race as substitutes for the local pagan gods!!

They had no need to make distinctions between praying TO the saints for their intercession with god and total adoration of God as the source of everything, as we must!

 

[BobRyan]

For example -


By contrast we have the following prayer to "the dead in Christ" (as Paul calls them in 1Thess 4) –

a prayer to st. Jude.

<
faithful servant and friend of Jesus...
... The church honors and invokes you
universally as the patron of hopeless cases,
of things despaired of.
Pray for me who am so miserable;
make use,
I implore you,
of this particular privilege accorded to you,
to bring visible and speedy help,
where help is almost despaired of.
Come to my assistance in this great need......
In all my necessities,
tribulations and sufferings,
particularly [b]<here make your request>,[/B]
and that I may bless God with you
and all the elect forever.

I promise you,
o blessed st. Jude,
to be ever mindful of this great favor,
and i will never cease to honor you
as my special and powerful patron
and to do all in my power
to encourage devotion to you.
amen.>>

 

[Root of Jesse]

if that were true you would be supporting such a test - and the opportunity to show all the success you claim can be had in that case.

Instead every Catholic on the board seems to oppose such a test - as if they know the test would be a problem for the RCC.

That's your opinion, but it's wrong. And the success is evident. Open your eyes and see.

 

[Root of Jesse]

958 Communion with the dead. "In full consciousness of this communion of the whole Mystical Body of Jesus Christ, the Church in its pilgrim members, from the very earliest days of the Christian religion, has honored with great respect the memory of the dead; and 'because it is a holy and a wholesome thought to pray for the dead that they may be loosed from their sins' she offers her suffrages for them."500 Our prayer for them is capable not only of helping them, but also of making their intercession for us effective

Communion WITH the dead includes praying TO the dead.

==================================

Catholic Digest 9/1993 pg 129

Question:
“My husband has been transferred to Japan and we have been here in Hiroshima for about two months. On a site seeing tour the Japanese guide brought me to a Buddhist shrine. There were statues of Buddha everywhere. The guide told me they represented different aspects of life and that the people offer food to the Buddhas and ask for Favors. It made me think of Our Catholic praying to the saints and wonder whether they have anything like the Ten Commandments to guide them.

There were fountains at the gate where pious visitors washed their hands before entering the shrine grounds. Could this be the same as our holy water?”

Ans:
“Very probably the physical washing signifies some kind of spiritual cleansing, AS it does with Us! Some Muslims say prayers on rosarylike beads Just as We do, so there is no copyright enforced on prayerful customs among the great world religions. The Pagan Romans prayed, each family to its Own household gods, JUST as we do to our patron saints. In Old Testament times the gentile had local gods for their town or country, and our Christian Saints eventually supplanted Them!

The Hebrews, of Course, had the mission of Wiping Out such heathen worship with the worship of the one true God, and while they have always had great respect for spiritual heroes, they Never set up any of their own race as substitutes for the local pagan gods!!

They had no need to make distinctions between praying TO the saints for their intercession with god and total adoration of God as the source of everything, as we must!

The saints are not dead, Bob. Read Revelation. The saints in heaven are as alive as you are.

 

[Root of Jesse]

For example -


By contrast we have the following prayer to "the dead in Christ" (as Paul calls them in 1Thess 4) –

a prayer to st. Jude.

<
faithful servant and friend of Jesus...
... The church honors and invokes you
universally as the patron of hopeless cases,
of things despaired of.
Pray for me who am so miserable;
make use,
I implore you,
of this particular privilege accorded to you,
to bring visible and speedy help,
where help is almost despaired of.
Come to my assistance in this great need......
In all my necessities,
tribulations and sufferings,
particularly [b]<here make your request>,[/B]
and that I may bless God with you
and all the elect forever.

I promise you,
o blessed st. Jude,
to be ever mindful of this great favor,
and i will never cease to honor you
as my special and powerful patron
and to do all in my power
to encourage devotion to you.
amen.>>

Saint Jude, a saint, by definition in heaven, is not dead. He's alive as you are, and as I am. His body is dead, to be sure, but his eternal soul is in heaven, alive, and interceding for us.

 

[Timothew]

You think that's not how we 'shoot for heaven'? Without God, there's nothing we can do. Duh. I wonder how eternal life is only for some and not for others...as if God makes people differently (before you were in the womb I knew you), some to perish and disappear, others to live eternally. Where does it say that in the Bible???

Where in the Bible does it say that some will perish and some will have eternal life?
John 3:16, just to name one famous passage. There are also many other places the Bible says the wicked will perish and will be no more, but those who put their faith in God will have eternal life. The gift of God is eternal life. The wages of sin is death. Where does the Bible says that those who reject God will receive the gift of eternal life?

 

[Timothew]

Actually "spew all over the table", which "spew" is short form at least in my world, is not or was not intended as a negative phrase directed at you as much as reflecting a similar sentiment you had in writing the above reply. People in meetings or teleconf can do that when upset about one point and in the process make a jumbled lengthy reply covering many points, maybe related maybe not, so all present are not sure which point to address in reply or if the speaker had a preference or priority what that was or how those points relate to what someone might have said earlier.
After reading your complaint about the length/my prior 4 posts - I thought I taken the time/effort to make four ordered replies to a lengthy one of yours and in return was getting a single one that felt I would be unable to easily determine which if any of my responses to you that post was making - much less keep it short as you seemed to expressing the desire for with some angst. So unlike my prior ordered effort to cover all the issues, which you specifically asked me to do, and in an effort to address that angst about me complying with your request, I picked a single point and made a brief reply without much effort at all on my part - especially compared to what I felt was my prior 4 rather direct, ordered, mid-size and focused replies as a response (in sequence) to issues you had raised and specifically asked me to address.

In doing that I realized you and others would have no idea why I had focused on only one thing you said in that one reply - so I had to say something. My choice of wordings reflected all that without going into the detail I just did, did not mean to offend you buy saying "spew" and still think it accurately described the situation from my view, at least at that particular moment, as you actually then followed with another reply to another (I think) of those earlier multi-responses posts of mine. So yeah I am fine and will continue to be careful with my choice of words with you.

Look up spew in a dictionary.
Either you don't know what it means, or you were intending to insult me in some kind of misguided attempt to discredit what I said.

Ask one question at a time and I won't vomit out answers to you all at once. I think you are attempting to confuse the issue in order to cover over the truth.

 

[BobRyan]

Saint Jude, a saint, by definition in heaven, is not dead. He's alive as you are, and as I am. His body is dead, to be sure, but his eternal soul is in heaven, alive, and interceding for us.

Was Paul wrong to call the dead saints "the Dead in Christ"?? as we saw here -
Monday at 10:55 PM #227

Was the RCC wrong to refer to prayers to those like St. Jude -- "Communion with the Dead" in CCC 958???
as we saw here??
Monday at 10:28 PM #226

And is this an error on the part of Catholic Digest - when in fact it agrees with the CCC 958 text?
========================================

Catholic Digest 12/1994 pg 129

“The Rosary is, unsurprisingly, Not mentioned in the Bible. Legend and history place its beginning in the 13th century long After the Bible was completed. As a Pagan practice, praying on counting beads goes back centuries before Christ…

Buddhists use prayer wheels and prayer beads for the same purpose… Counting prayer beads is common practice in religious cultures”.

​

Cath Digest 9/1993 pg 129
Question:
“My husband has been transferred to Japan and we have been here in Hiroshima for about two months. On a site seeing tour the Japanese guide brought me to a Buddhist shrine. There were statues of Buddha everywhere. The guide told me they represented different aspects of life and that the people offer food to the Buddhas and ask for Favors. It made me think of Our Catholic praying to the saints and wonder whether they have anything like the Ten Commandments to guide them.

There were fountains at the gate where pious visitors washed their hands before entering the shrine grounds. Could this be the same as our holy water?”

Ans:
“Very probably the physical washing signifies some kind of spiritual cleansing, AS it does with Us! Some Muslims say prayers on rosarylike beads Just as We do, so there is no copyright enforced on prayerful customs among the great world religions. [b]The Pagan Romans prayed, each family to its Own household gods, JUST as we do[/b] to our patron saints. In Old Testament times the gentile had local gods for their town or country, and our Christian Saints eventually supplanted Them!

The Hebrews, of Course, had the mission of Wiping Out such heathen worship with the worship of the one true God, and while they have always had great respect for spiritual heroes, they Never set up any of their own race as substitutes for the local pagan gods!!
They had no need to make distinctions between praying TO the saints for their intercession with god and total adoration of God as the source of everything, as we must!​

 

[Root of Jesse]

Where in the Bible does it say that some will perish and some will have eternal life?
John 3:16, just to name one famous passage. There are also many other places the Bible says the wicked will perish and will be no more, but those who put their faith in God will have eternal life. The gift of God is eternal life. The wages of sin is death. Where does the Bible says that those who reject God will receive the gift of eternal life?

You'll have to point out where the Bible says anyone will "be no more"... And actually, you're wrong about John 3:16. It says that God gave his only son, that the world may not perish, but have eternal life. Quite different. God so loved the WORLD,,,

 

[Root of Jesse]

Was Paul wrong to call the dead saints "the Dead in Christ"?? as we saw here -
Monday at 10:55 PM #227

No, actually, he's talking about the bodies of those who died rising to meet their souls.

Was the RCC wrong to refer to prayers to those like St. Jude -- "Communion with the Dead" in CCC 958???
as we saw here??
Monday at 10:28 PM #226

No, Bob. There's a difference between praying TO and praying WITH. Get that through your head, please.

And is this an error on the part of Catholic Digest - when in fact it agrees with the CCC 958 text?
========================================

Catholic Digest 12/1994 pg 129

“The Rosary is, unsurprisingly, Not mentioned in the Bible. Legend and history place its beginning in the 13th century long After the Bible was completed. As a Pagan practice, praying on counting beads goes back centuries before Christ…

Buddhists use prayer wheels and prayer beads for the same purpose… Counting prayer beads is common practice in religious cultures”.

​

Cath Digest 9/1993 pg 129
Question:
“My husband has been transferred to Japan and we have been here in Hiroshima for about two months. On a site seeing tour the Japanese guide brought me to a Buddhist shrine. There were statues of Buddha everywhere. The guide told me they represented different aspects of life and that the people offer food to the Buddhas and ask for Favors. It made me think of Our Catholic praying to the saints and wonder whether they have anything like the Ten Commandments to guide them.

There were fountains at the gate where pious visitors washed their hands before entering the shrine grounds. Could this be the same as our holy water?”

Ans:
“Very probably the physical washing signifies some kind of spiritual cleansing, AS it does with Us! Some Muslims say prayers on rosarylike beads Just as We do, so there is no copyright enforced on prayerful customs among the great world religions. [b]The Pagan Romans prayed, each family to its Own household gods, JUST as we do[/b] to our patron saints. In Old Testament times the gentile had local gods for their town or country, and our Christian Saints eventually supplanted Them!

The Hebrews, of Course, had the mission of Wiping Out such heathen worship with the worship of the one true God, and while they have always had great respect for spiritual heroes, they Never set up any of their own race as substitutes for the local pagan gods!!
They had no need to make distinctions between praying TO the saints for their intercession with god and total adoration of God as the source of everything, as we must!​

I don't agree with the characterization you copied and pasted, but praying to saints, who are alive, not dead, is different from praying to the dead, which we do not do. We pray for the dead, not to them. We pray to saints, because they are alive.
By the way, there is no Catholic publication which is authoritative. They can be and sometimes are wrong. Just like the ECFs.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Bubba, you claimed that the Church believed in ECT for 2000 years. I was not "ridiculing your position". I was showing you that the whole church did not believe in ECT for 2000 years. The fact that Irenaeus believed in the wicked discontinue to exist is not ridicule of your position. If you want to claim that the ECFs believed in ECT, you need to prove that. But even if you were able to prove that, it wouldn't change what the Bible says. The ECFs were human and could be just as wrong as you are.

On a side note, just because someone, like Irenaeus, believed against ECT, as you call it, does not mean that the Church doesn't teach and believe ECT. Irenaeus had no authority, except when he was in communion with the Church, not the other way around. So in a time where this was debated, it was the Church's position that there is eternal torment in hell. It was also the Church's final, definitive doctrine that there is eternal torment in hell. I love how you guys love to find a few people who disagree at one point in time with a doctrine, and claim that the entire Church believed or didn't believe something.

For example, you probably would say now that the entire Church does not believe abortion is wrong, because some priest somewhere, or some bishop somewhere wrote that it's not wrong. It doesn't matter. What matters is what the Church teaches, which is encompassed in the Catechism.

 

[BobRyan]

Rev 20
5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

And of course these texts become easier to understand once we accept those texts as they read.

1 Tim 6:
14 that you keep this commandment without spot, blameless until our Lord Jesus Christ’s appearing, 15 which He will manifest in His own time, He who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16 who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light,

Also the 1Thess 4 rapture text just as it reads.

1Thess 4
13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.


John 11
11 These things He said, and after that He said to them, “Our friend Lazarus sleeps, but I go that I may wake him up.”
12 Then His disciples said, “Lord, if he sleeps he will get well.” 13 However, Jesus spoke of his death, but they thought that He was speaking about taking rest in sleep.
14 Then Jesus said to them plainly, “Lazarus is dead. 15 And I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, that you may believe. Nevertheless let us go to him.”

No, actually, he's talking about the bodies of those who died rising to meet their souls.

In the actual Bible the body returns to dust - annihilated - and the spirit/soul is that which returns to God. 1 Cor 15 says that the old decayed body that is laid to rest - is not what is raised - rather we are given a new body at the resurrection - 2Cor 5:1-3 says it is made in heaven for us - and is not the decaying tent that was sown.

No, Bob. There's a difference between praying TO and praying WITH.

A distinction without a difference.

hmm the prayer TO st. Jude -- a prayer WITH Jude or TO Jude???

For example -
By contrast we have the following prayer to "the dead in Christ" (as Paul calls them in 1Thess 4) –

a prayer to st. Jude.
<
faithful servant and friend of Jesus...
... The church honors and invokes you
universally as the patron of hopeless cases,
of things despaired of.
Pray for me who am so miserable;
make use,
I implore you,
of this particular privilege accorded to you,
to bring visible and speedy help,
where help is almost despaired of.
Come to my assistance in this great need......
In all my necessities,
tribulations and sufferings,
particularly [b]<here make your request>,[/B]
and that I may bless God with you
and all the elect forever.

I promise you,
o blessed st. Jude,
to be ever mindful of this great favor,
and i will never cease to honor you
as my special and powerful patron
and to do all in my power
to encourage devotion to you.
amen.>>

 

[BobRyan]

We pray for the dead, not to them. We pray to saints, because they are alive.
By the way, there is no Catholic publication which is authoritative.

Your own statement has no authority by that standard. (as you will probably agree).

As for "Communion WITH the dead' CCC 958 - included as a reference to SAINTs -- who have died -

958 Communion with the dead. "In full consciousness of this communion of the whole Mystical Body of Jesus Christ, the Church in its pilgrim members, from the very earliest days of the Christian religion, has honored with great respect the memory of the dead; and 'because it is a holy and a wholesome thought to pray for the dead that they may be loosed from their sins' she offers her suffrages for them."500 Our prayer for them is capable not only of helping them, but also of making their intercession for us effective

The idea that the saints are excluded from CCC 958 is hard to justify.

 

[Timothew]

You'll have to point out where the Bible says anyone will "be no more"...

Okay. If I do, will you believe that the wicked will be no more, or will you continue to argue against what the Bible says?
Psalm 37:10
In just a little while, the wicked will be no more; though you look carefully at his place, he will not be there.

And actually, you're wrong about John 3:16. It says that God gave his only son, that the world may not perish, but have eternal life. Quite different. God so loved the WORLD,,,

Actually, I'm not wrong about John 3:16, it says "whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life".

And you forgot to tell me where the Bible says that the wicked will inherit eternal life. How could they have eternal life in hell being tortured alive forever if they do not have eternal life at all? Don't sidestep this, it is very important.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Rev 20
5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

And of course these texts become easier to understand once we accept those texts as they read.

1 Tim 6:
14 that you keep this commandment without spot, blameless until our Lord Jesus Christ’s appearing, 15 which He will manifest in His own time, He who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16 who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light,

Also the 1Thess 4 rapture text just as it reads.

1Thess 4
13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.


John 11
11 These things He said, and after that He said to them, “Our friend Lazarus sleeps, but I go that I may wake him up.”
12 Then His disciples said, “Lord, if he sleeps he will get well.” 13 However, Jesus spoke of his death, but they thought that He was speaking about taking rest in sleep.
14 Then Jesus said to them plainly, “Lazarus is dead. 15 And I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, that you may believe. Nevertheless let us go to him.”



In the actual Bible the body returns to dust - annihilated - and the spirit/soul is that which returns to God. 1 Cor 15 says that the old decayed body that is laid to rest - is not what is raised - rather we are given a new body at the resurrection - 2Cor 5:1-3 says it is made in heaven for us - and is not the decaying tent that was sown.

So you don't believe that the body that returned to dust (which doesn't mean annihilated) can be reunited by God with the soul? Then why are their human people (body and soul) in heaven?

A distinction without a difference.

No, there's quite a difference. Sorry you don't know it.

hmm the prayer TO st. Jude -- a prayer WITH Jude or TO Jude???

To. And he's alive. Not dead. The distinction wasn't TO and WITH. It was TO and FOR. If I pray for the dead it's different than praying to the dead.