Can Matthew 10:28 and Ezek 18:4 be believed just as they are written?

Is it correct to accept Matt 10:28 and Ezek 18:4 just as they read?

  • Yes they should be accepted just as they read

    Votes: 11 91.7%
  • They can be accepted if you make some changes

    Votes: 1 8.3%
  • They no longer apply

    Votes: 2 16.7%
  • It would take a lot of explaining before you should accept them

    Votes: 1 8.3%

  • Total voters
    12

BobRyan

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Sure.

Some call it the parable of the dead - see Luke 16. The Jews of that day had long held (though not universal) belief in an afterlife where the good are rewarded and the wicked suffering as punishment based on the life led here. The concept was always that the state of those two fates was perpetual - eternal. They also held belief in a concept of human spirits, which they knew from philosophy that any concept of something immaterial requires immortality of that thing, and so spirits are immortal. They also believed in a depiction of the wicked suffering in the next life, with a close association of that suffering being required to account for the injustice of this life. So insert Jesus giving an audience who we could comfortably suggest believed all those things a story that essentially represents all those various notions. To then claim His story did not represent that reality as being actually true is an example of reading something and NOT having it " be believed just as they are written".

Correction -- the Jews - believed the bible.
The Sadducees believed none of what you just stated and were considered rulers/ leaders of the people.
Not one of the opposers of Christ mentioned in listed in Luke 16 believed that 'He is God so He must know what is being said in heaven and in hell as a personal eye witness" -- that simply is not the role of the opposer.
Not one of us today believes that Abraham actually is sovereign over all the dead saints and the one to be prayed to - by those in hell to get permission to have a saint raised from the dead - so that they can witness to the living.

The obvious characteristics of the "parable" in this case - like the "trees going forth to elect a king" in Judges 9.

in Christ,

Bob
 
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BobRyan

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Jews that "believe the Bible" would have been prone to accept these texts "as they read"

Eccl 9:4-6
Isaiah 38:18-19
Psalms 146:3-4
Psalms 6:5
Psalms 30:9
Psalms 115:17

And they may be right.

Is 38
18 “For Sheol cannot thank You,
Death cannot praise You;
Those who go down to the pit cannot hope for Your faithfulness.
19 “It is the living who give thanks to You, as I do today;
A father tells his sons about Your faithfulness.

Psalm 146:3-4(NASB)
3 Do not trust in princes,
In mortal man, in whom there is no salvation.
4 His spirit departs, he returns to the earth;
In that very day his thoughts perish.

Psalm 6:5
5 For there is no mention of You in death;
In Sheol who will give You thanks?

Psalm 30:9
9 “What profit is there in my blood, if I go down to the pit?
Will the dust praise You? Will it declare Your faithfulness?


Psalms 115:17
17 The dead do not praise the Lord,
Nor do any who go down into silence;

Eccl 9:4-6
4 For whoever is joined with all the living, there is hope; surely a live dog is better than a dead lion. 5 For the living know they will die; but the dead do not know anything, nor have they any longer a reward, for their memory is forgotten. 6 Indeed their love, their hate and their zeal have already perished, and they will no longer have a share in all that is done under the sun.

Is 66
24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

Mal 4
For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of hosts.

Ezek 28
14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.


==========================================
These texts help us know what the Sadducees might have been thinking when Christ affirms their own teaching that "God is not the God of the dead but of the living".
 
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BobRyan

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Scriptures alone able to lead one to salvation 2Tim 3:14-16.
14 But you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them, 15 and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

The statement in 2Tim 3 refers exclusively to the OT texts since only the OT would have been written "scripture" at the time that Timothy was growing up and being taught at home - by his non-Christian Jewish mother and grandmother. It also applies by extension to the NT texts as they were written (no waiting for 4 centuries for Catholics to come about).

Not sure why this is funny to you - since it makes your case worse showing that not only are the 66 "sufficient" but in fact even the "39" are "sufficient".

Obviously Paul could not be claiming that Timothy was reading the NT as a child. And "no" I don't think Paul was lying.
Notice that in Matt 17 - both Moses and Elijah stand with Christ - pre-cross -- in glory on the mount of transfiguration.

"They all drank from the same Spiritual ROCK (Petra) and that ROCK was Christ" 1 Cor 10:4

The point remains.

Lol nice attempt to spin and backtrack again.

No ... in fact "the point remains" -- the same point. Just as I responded to Root of Jesse's suggestion that I or someone here was blindly taking everything that ECF's came up with. We don't. Rather we test all doctrine and tradition by the sola scriptura method -- which does not result in the nonsensical "so we reject all doctrine and tradition" that some have proposed using the fallacy of reductio ad absurdum. As I am sure we can all see by now.


You gave the quote from the letter to Timothy to supposedly support the idea that we do not need the traditions for faith

I gave it in response to your claim that scripture was insufficient to lead one to salvation - and thus refuted your suggestion. Where is the problem?

That point remains.

That does not "prove that every tradition contradicts the Bible" in the either-or logical fallacy model that you might be attempting just now.


you now want to claim that even the OT alone is sufficient for salvation. Which is remarkable in that am not sure anyone but you has ever made such a claim,

Please be serious - the sola scriptura model is found even before Mark 7:6-13 -- it is found in isaiah 8:20.

God says 'the Gospel was preached to US just as it was to THEM also" in Heb 4:1-2 speaking of Israel in the dessert.

MOSES and Elijah BOTH appear with Christ in glorified form in Matt 17- BEFORE the Cross!! How much of the Bible do you think Moses had????


The Bible traditionally, at least before men changed that tradition about 500 years ago, contains 73 books not 66.

The bible had 39 books in it at the time of Christ - as Josephus confirms. Not a word of it given to us by the Catholic Church. The remaining 27 letters all came about before the close of the first century A.D. -- not a word of it given by the Catholic church.


So before one attempts to claim either we can reject anything tradition says or contradicts oneself and claim some traditions are not error,

The sola scriptura method tests all doctrine and tradition by the Bible as did Christ in Mark 7. The nonsensical claim that doing so must result in condemning all doctrine and tradition as being in contradiction with scripture - is not taken seriously by anyone reading this thread. Even you.

in Christ,

Bob
 
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DrBubbaLove

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I asked for a verse that states that eternal life is given to the lost---still don't see it. Instead you give me your opinion about what Luke 16 is saying because some Jews used to believe in something. However, you've been given verse after verse--several, all stating that death is to perish, end of life, so on. You've been shown that God gives eternal life to the saved--that is His gift to the saved. Eternal life--living, breathing life---And that both fates are perpetual---eternal life, eternal existence is quite the opposite of eternal death, it is eternal non-existence. So you are saying that this parable of the rich man and beggar means eternal life is given to the lost to be tormented forever---ok--I'll play--show me in the parable where Jesus says the rich man is going to be burning in torment forever. This rich man is in hell, nowhere does it state he is going to be there forever.
There is no question that there is a hell---the question is--is eternal life given to the lost so that they can be tormented forever in it, because I can't find this anywhere. However, there is plenty that states, burnt up as stubble, perish, destruction, be no more, and so on. Because this is what Jesus says about eternal life.

(Joh 3:16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life.


(Rev 20:12) I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and they opened books. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged out of the things which were written in the books, according to their works.
(Rev 20:13) The sea gave up the dead who were in it. Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them. They were judged, each one according to his works.
(Rev 22:12) "Behold, I come quickly. My reward is with me, to repay to each man according to his work.


What you are saying is God is going to torture every lost person forever, no matter what the offense. And whether the torment is mild compared to someone else or not, it still goes on forever. How is that "according to his works?" The sentence is the same no matter what. But God says eternal life is given to the saved--I am still looking for the verse that states He gives eternal life to the lost.
You cannot just make a claim that three millenniums of Jews should have believed Scripture means what you believe about this and think you have made a point about the parable of the dead being. That would be just an opinion. And as an opinion it does not even address that God gave that depiction to people who very obviously DID NOT believe as you do without even attempting to what you claim they are wrong about.

If God telling people that ALREADY believed in the unending torment of the "lost" a story that reinforces that belief is not good enough for someone then am not sure why the question is even being asked of me to use Scripture. Apparently when someone's mind is already made up they are very unwilling to, in the words of the OP again, read the Bible and take what they read to
"be believed just as they are written?"

As far as something being just "my opinion" in this regard, one could not be more wrong. That statement is an indication my posts cannot even be read and taken to "be believed just as they are written?". But at least I know the OP is not alone in this reading disability and it does not apply only to when reading the Bible.

I cannot take credit for this being just "my opinion" about the dead. There are probably at least 2.5 millenium of people, starting with the Jews first and the Christians who inherited much of their teachings in this regard who ALL (including Jesus) testify to the truth of this teaching. And if God's own endorsement, followed by the men He taught and then each of their disciples after them is not enough of an endorsement that the teaching on eternal torment of the damned is not just Scriptural supported, but a Truth from God then am not sure what should qualify as truth. If someone wants to ignore, not my opinion, but all that testimony to God's Word and instead adopt a different teaching that does not even date 500 years be my guest. But do not deceive yourself into thinking relatively a very modern teaching is not one of men. At least embrace your teaching heritage.

And while at it, and we do not need Scripture to embrace this, consider logic and philosophy as something you are also willing to toss if you adopt this teaching. Why you will ask? Ok, just ONE example - Because you have God changing His Mind about our existence if you agree with the truth that our souls our immortal (which is a logical and philosophical truth). Many of believers in people going non-existent doubt the immortality of the human spirit. So not only do they abandon all the testimony mentioned above including that of God Himself against the heresy you choose to adopt, they also deny the logically and philosophically provable truth that our souls must be immortal. Plato did that long before anyone had heard of Christians.
But hey, if someone thinks all these millenniums go by and it took until less than 500 years ago for someone to finally figure out all this testimony was wrong plus logic and philosophy have been wrong, then that person is really putting a lot at stake on the word of people who they must think way smarter than anyone who has ever lived. And that has nothing to do with just my opinion.
So talk to me some more about how the Bible is to be believed just as it is written. Talk to me some more about how Jesus can be seen as a deceiver talking to people who believed exactly what He depicted about the state of human souls, which is essentially what the orthodox teach today in matters of the immortality of the human soul and in eternal torment as one possible fate.
 
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DrBubbaLove

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I will accept that as an apology. I know what you meant when you said "So, eternal punishment is a Carnival Cruise."
Since you are backing away from that, I will let it drop.


I will answer the questions in your post


I don't believe that, and I never said that I believed that God changed His Mind about our existence.



God bring people back from the dead is called "the resurrection of the dead". It is part of your creed, The Nicene Creed.


Because those who have been resurrected and given eternal life do not cease to exist. Those who have been resurrected from the dead and sent to their second death will cease to exist since there is no resurrection following the second death. It's quite simple to understand, really.


Just as the death penalty is a punishment, eternal destruction is also a punishment. The person does not have to be conscious of their punishment. People who have been punished by lethal injection are no longer conscious but I don't see you complaining that they have not been punished.



No

No

Improper question. We ARE told to fear it. Jesus said "Fear the one who is able to destroy both soul and body..."


How could they get over it after they have been completely and utterly destroyed? This question doesn't make any sense, please rephrase it. Also I don't understand your comment, "your claiming they go through the change three times already". I never made that claim.

Bubba, this is not difficult to figure out.
Go to a funeral parlor. Ask them to see a dead person.
Is the dead person conscious or not conscious? Obviously, they are not conscious.
If they were brought back to life, would they be conscious or not conscious? Obviously, once they are alive again, they are conscious.
If they remain alive forever, would they be conscious or not conscious? Obviously, they would remain conscious.
If they die again are they conscious or not conscious? Obviously they are not conscious.
If they are never brought back to life, do they regain consciousness or they remain unconscious? Obviously, they remain unconscious.

So those who are resurrected from death and remain alive have eternal life. Those who reject God's offer of eternal life do not receive eternal life. They are not conscious for all eternity, since they would have to have eternal life to be conscious. They do not receive the gift of eternal life.

I went into great detail because it seems that you are not understanding this. I don't know why you can't understand this.
Ok, I can get excited to and need to take time away to clam down sometimes. Occasionally the mods have helped me rest if I get out of hand and I did not feel this one of those occasions though the accusations were pretty severe. Not drinking and posting helps too. Glad you took back claim I was lying about what you said.

And again if I ask a question it does not represent a claim that you said something. It is my attempt to focus the discussion and get a reply that addresses problems I SEE with your position. If I actually believed you stated the point behind my questions then I would not need to ask you that question - I would have your admission and presumably your acceptance that for whatever reason it does not matter and you believe as you do anyway. And that is perfectly fine. So please stop acting like every question I ask is me trying to put words in your mouth or trip you up. I really want to know how you believe as you and address the issues with it that I SEE. If I knew you saw it, then we would have a different discussion. But until you stop thinking I am here just to poke fun at your beliefs and lie about what your posts we are going to keep butting heads. BTW I have actually come to admire the strength of your convictions in this regard over the years, and most of the time the discourse with you is a positive and challenging thing for me, which I always appreciate. I will continue the next post to address your replies.
 
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DrBubbaLove

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I
I don't believe that, and I never said that I believed that God changed His Mind about our existence.

God bring people back from the dead is called "the resurrection of the dead". It is part of your creed, The Nicene Creed.

Because those who have been resurrected and given eternal life do not cease to exist. Those who have been resurrected from the dead and sent to their second death will cease to exist since there is no resurrection following the second death. It's quite simple to understand, really.

Just as the death penalty is a punishment, eternal destruction is also a punishment. The person does not have to be conscious of their punishment. People who have been punished by lethal injection are no longer conscious but I don't see you complaining that they have not been punished.

No

No

Improper question. We ARE told to fear it. Jesus said "Fear the one who is able to destroy both soul and body..."

How could they get over it after they have been completely and utterly destroyed? This question doesn't make any sense, please rephrase it. Also I don't understand your comment, "your claiming they go through the change three times already". I never made that claim.

Bubba, this is not difficult to figure out.
Go to a funeral parlor. Ask them to see a dead person.
Is the dead person conscious or not conscious? Obviously, they are not conscious.
If they were brought back to life, would they be conscious or not conscious? Obviously, once they are alive again, they are conscious.
If they remain alive forever, would they be conscious or not conscious? Obviously, they would remain conscious.
If they die again are they conscious or not conscious? Obviously they are not conscious.
If they are never brought back to life, do they regain consciousness or they remain unconscious? Obviously, they remain unconscious.

So those who are resurrected from death and remain alive have eternal life. Those who reject God's offer of eternal life do not receive eternal life. They are not conscious for all eternity, since they would have to have eternal life to be conscious. They do not receive the gift of eternal life.

I went into great detail because it seems that you are not understanding this. I don't know why you can't understand this.
Again and let me be clear, asking a question is not a claim I said you said something or even that you MUST believe something.
A straight denial that your view has God changing His Mind about our existence. Ok. But consider, at least in the orthodox world, God is the reason we exist. He created us and in a very real sense He holds our existence in the palm of His Hands. So am unclear how a view which says we exist from birth, all cease to exist at death, all return to exist "again" and then finally some cease to exist "again" does not represent God changing His Mind about whether we should exist or not. Again a question is not a statement about what you believe. Does God not make us exist or not exist? And if not what controls our existence?

Copies vs resurrection of same people - what is the difference in your view. Yes that God brings people back is indeed part of our Creed but in our case our existence as individual persons is continuous, which is why I would not need to ask a question about copies with someone that believes in that Creed. But your expressed concept of our existence, it is anything but continuous. So a question about how a "resurrection" in that non-continuous construct is distinguishable from God making copies of us cannot be addressed by simply stating we both believe in Resurrection. I never said by asking that question about copies that you did not believe in a Resurrection. So that question remains unanswered unless you care to attempt again. And again, I would think "I don't know how my notion of a Resurrection is different from God making copies of all us but I believe it is different somehow" is a perfectly acceptable response. Contrary to the opinion of many, there is much we don't know despite our knowing the few things we say must be true are True.

Ok, so the question about how in a non-continuous view of all of our existences, how can we view non-existence as punishment. The reply essentially was because God promises to bring us all "back" from non-existence and some of us will never not exist again. So, and I think I alluded to this before, it is only God refusing to bring someone "back again" from non-existence that is considered punishment. Got it and as my earlier reply indicated I considered that was your understanding. I guess I could concede that the dread of knowing one would would cease to exist would induce fear, and that fear perhaps greater without knowing we could "come back", but having that fear would still be there whether we knew we would come back or not, which prompted my question about that fear being the punishment - which I understood to be your claim. So having said everyone must face that same fear at least once before, am unclear how that fear alone represents a punishment when it is said we all face that same fear - as we should fear non-existence - at the end of this life.
I could agree that the final time the damned face non-existence the knowledge of never again would make it more dreadful, but having faced non-existence before I could also see there would be some mitigation of that fear, especially if we claim as you do that it is the same person (and not a copy) facing non-existence a second time.

So if the dread of non-existence is part of the punishment then we all face that dread. Sure we could talk about the knowledge/promise that the non-existence is temporary mitigates that fear, but surely some fear exists still. And then for me at least and even believing in the promise, there would be the nagging doubt facing that fear, as the copy/difference question has yet to be completely answered, how do I know what is said to "come back" is me if even my current knowledge of "self" is said to cease to exist?

Negative replies to two questions about what manner of non-existence is considered, if it even could be. Ok. And those were not trick questions BTW and the answers perfectly acceptble. The answer goes to what one considers punishment in this construct and removes any doubts anyone might have as to whether the view is there is a total non-existence. So no place where people could dread not "being" but also no place from which people could be said to be brought back in any meaningful sense, as least not as yet explained that would distinguish that act of "bring back" from "copying". Got it. Those questions - check. The only punishment of the damned is fear/dread and then only a fear/dread of the knowledge that one is facing something for the last time. I would suggest that some people would object that having all the damned face the exact same punishment (which is not the orthodox view BTW) makes there being Justice for any unpunished wickedness very doubtful, which means God leaves the injustice of this world not fully accounted for. So that point now about this view and the issue it raises with restoring universally the balance of Justice is reinforced by having all the damned face the same punishment - if indeed that is your belief.

Am breaking here to make this more managable - sorry
 
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mmksparbud

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You cannot just make a claim that three millenniums of Jews should have believed Scripture means what you believe about this and think you have made a point about the parable of the dead being

I'm not sure what you are saying there--I made no claim about 3 millenniums of Jews should have believed Scripture--
The Jews did believe scripture--and they believed all those verses quoted to you from the old testament as that is all that they had. It was Jews that wrote them!
I asked you to point out where in the parable of the rich man, it says that he will be in hell forever---You have not done so. I've read the parable many times and I have yet to seed that, so I asked you where it states that-----simple question.
Please read posts #182 and #183.
And it doesn't matter to me what millions of people believe if they believe contrary to what the scriptures teach. Millions of people will not save me--only Christ will--so their misconceptions are not, will never be, what I choose to base my believes in, the scriptures are what I believe in.
 
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DrBubbaLove

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Quote inserted just for reference for this continued reply to it.
Notice I skipped one reply earlier – the question of how ceasing to exist could be viewed as punishment. And the answer was acceptable – it could be seen as punishment in the same sense as capital punishment is, but not without its own difficulties in suggesting that similarity (ask me as this is getting too long already). So and as we covered before, this reply and the reason I asked – further reinforces the concept that it Is the fear/dread alone of facing the final and then unending period of non-existence – rather than any suffering at all which is the punishment of Hell. And I sort of got that from prior posts, but just wanted to be clear here. So this reply, as did the next two (no, no) on the dread/longing question (and opposed to what God depicted the dead so non-existent rich man having), any amount of suffering is utterly absent from this view. OK, got it. So this concept of a capital punishment is as utterly painless for the damned, which is sort of my meaning behind fearing going “poof”. Yeah we all could and probably should fear going “poof” but clearly that fear is nothing compared to facing eternal suffering. Just making sure I understood the position and that I could confidently still say there is no sense of restoring Justice in such a construct – at least in any sense that in restoring the imbalance we can obviously see around us now by repaying unpaid debts that imbalance has created. Poof does not do that.

So the why fear going “poof” since we all must face it. The reply was improper question because we should fear it because Jesus said we should. Ok, I do not understand that reply or my question was not phrased properly. You are saying our death=destruction of body and soul period. You say the second death for the damned is exactly the same thing only they are said to “never come back”. But you still have all us facing the very thing Jesus said we should fear – destruction of both body and soul when we die?

I do drag on sometimes don’t I? So I essentially repeated an earlier question only worded it differently. I see the question about the damned getting over having their body and soul utterly destroyed after having already faced that once with rest of us. Your reply about that much is the same as before. The changing three times part is an allusion to in your view we (1)come into existence by God’s Hand at conception (presuming we agree with that much), we all are destroyed body and soul at our death – cease to exist (2) and we are “brought back” for another existence to be judged on our first existence (3). So people going through such a process have had three changes in their “state” of existence. And no that is not hard to understand it being your view – but understanding that is your view does not address the questions such a view raises.
 
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DrBubbaLove

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My reply to Timothew post 180 continues.

My question have all pertained to your view that we can cease to exist, indeed that we all cease to exist when we die – both body and soul you have being destroyed at the end of this life. It does not help to distract the discussion with questions about what a corpse is like. In neither of our views can say that corpse is the person that died. It is just a body that once was that person who is now gone. In our view the person soul is not “gone” even though we cannot see it, at least not without Divine intervention which does not appear to happen often – though some suspect dream like experiences in the regard are just exactly that. Your view however is that the corpse is that person or at least what remains and that not certainly we both agree is not forever.

So we can skip the go poke a dead body discussions as that has nothing to do with what we believe is or Jesus depicted as being “aware” as that would be the person’s continued existence as a human soul someplace else and nothing to do with that body except that is where that same person’s soul departed from. So don’t imagine that talking about corpses being aware relates to the Parable of the Dead or our beliefs. Whether the departed soul is aware or not could be argued, but one has not made that point either by poking dead bodies. And clearly Elijah and Moses were depicted aware, just as the dead in the parable were depicted aware, just as the dead in Saint John’s vision of Heaven are depicted aware, so that would be more Scripture that one would have to NOT read to “ believed just as they are written” in order to argue the dead are not aware. In what sense or manner are they aware is also another discussion in addition to “if” they are. But we need not go to any of that here as you do not believe the dead exist – so having us consider poking bodies to defend that they do not exist is rather pointless.
 
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DrBubbaLove

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My reply to Timothew post 180 continues.

As to further distracting us by suggesting that only in one view do the damned not get eternal life further takes us where we don’t need to go. The damned do receive any gift in our view either. It is only by attempting to reduce that gift to immortality that one can make that claim. The gift spoken of is SO SO SO VERY much more than immortality that to bring that up is not worthy of your ability to discuss this. The damned do not get any gift in our view, rather they are eternally left without the possibility of it.

If you want to go there, consider in your view that your claim about ours would mean I could then say the damned in your view would have the EXACT same gift those in Heaven do simply by being “brought back”, and that thought further magnifies the idea that making them cease to exist has done absolutely nothing in restoring any balance that present injustices we see in this world have obviously created and remain unaddressed in your view. So if we maintain the only the thing the damned lost, which is also the only thing anyone can gain, is simply being allowed to exist again we have more issues with your position. In fact, simply existing becomes the gift of Heaven and we all have that now. Is that really what you want us to think? I didn’t think so – which BTW means I am not saying that is what you said or what you believe. No, that would be a lie about what I just said. In actual fact am suggesting I hope you don’t believe that, but your claim about our view having the damned receive something certainly supports that argument about your view.

And no, no one is saying your view of body and soul being totally destroyed at our death is hard to understand. In fact it is actually utterly simple. If I thought it were hard to understand then you should wonder that I would think so many people believe as you do or that I would need to ask questions about it. That is unless I suppose you view me as a simpleton, and I have not avoided that claim in the past nor consider my self exceptionally bright. I actually suppose it is easier to believe as you do because I really think it is simple and the only reason it is accepted is because people think God would not be God or Good if this simple notion were not true. What I think is hard is taking that rather simple thought and applying to other thoughts – like the idea Plato expressed about why any concept of human spirit requires a permanence of that spirit – or why it is better to exist than not exist – which also means not existing is an evil. I will agree those thoughts, the reasoning, the logic behind and the many historical proofs given for it all, all of that is absolutely not simple and often very hard for most of us to follow, including myself. But just because those thoughts are not simple does not mean we are all incapable of understanding those things. And if we do understand those things, even if only partially or incompletely, then it is very simple to see why believing God is God unless the damned cease to exist is yes, a simple idea, but also wrong.

No. Very wrong in the strongest sense as it has the effect of being able to undermine our faith - that there is not now or will ever be Justice or a balance of Justice in this universe for just one example. It undermines our faith because we attempt to live as if we believe there will be Justice one day. And yes, I do think it is rather simple to see how believing in something which requires there is no Justice would undermine that hope - and attack our faith. So such thoughts are not just wrong, in my view they are dangerous for us. Which is the only reason to object, otherwise we could leave it be if it really had no effect or at least a potential for that effect. Am glad it has not effected faith for you. Am less certain that would be the case with everyone holding such beliefs, which is why I would always continue to object and attempt - even poorly here to explain why I object. So no, we jest sometimes but allowing the potential for someone to loose faith is not something I think we should just sit back and ignore. Because in my view, I can loose that faith and that would mean in your view mean at some point I might "come back" only to never exist again. And that is unacceptable to me, and I would not want to see myself allowing someone to freely believe something that could lead to what is unacceptable for myself - in your view "permanent" non-existence. So I object and you are certainly free to response to the contrary.
 
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DrBubbaLove

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I'm not sure what you are saying there--I made no claim about 3 millenniums of Jews should have believed Scripture--
The Jews did believe scripture--and they believed all those verses quoted to you from the old testament as that is all that they had. It was Jews that wrote them!
I asked you to point out where in the parable of the rich man, it says that he will be in hell forever---You have not done so. I've read the parable many times and I have yet to seed that, so I asked you where it states that-----simple question.
Please read posts #182 and #183.
And it doesn't matter to me what millions of people believe if they believe contrary to what the scriptures teach. Millions of people will not save me--only Christ will--so their misconceptions are not, will never be, what I choose to base my believes in, the scriptures are what I believe in.
Obviously we missed each other. I thought we were talking about because you had asked, where in the world we can find the notion in Scripture that the damned exist in eternal torment eternally just as those in Heaven will exist eternally. While some of my replies may have been lengthy what I said is Jesus depicted something, you denied what I said He depicted which is a very literal reading of that text (which goes to the OPs claim of supposedly how he thinks we should read at least the parts of the Bible he wants to read that way and not other parts like this one that he disagrees with) ---you denied that what I said is what God meant when He said it. I replied that I do not see how anyone can make that denial given what He said and WHO He said to, who then and now believe with perhaps at least 3 millenniums worth of people have believed about the dead. To hold your position you would have to deny Jesus meant them to continue believing exactly what they already believed, I see no way around that. At the very least you are claiming for whatever reason (pick one), that Jesus said something that most of those hearing already were very familiar and agreed with, without absolutely no indication He told them (or anyone) that that belief was wrong. So when you then replied those people SHOULD have read their own Scriptures and corrected themselves, several additional points are being made in attempt to support your claim about His giving us that parable.
That response means or at least it means to me that one thinks:
  • Because most of the Jews hearing Jesus did believe just as I do now and I did not understand you to be refuting that most of them did, then their having such a belief in my mind at least could only follow from study of their own Scripture and an understanding of it that did not conflict with their belief. The fact you might believe they either did not read their own Scripture or if they did at all did not understand it as you do I accepted as a given. Either way it does not help your cause because certainly some of the Jews present were very familiar with their own Scripture and did believe it supported the same view I and over 3 millennium of people have held. You don't even have a fraction of that time of people looking at the same Scriptures and holding to your tradition, that was my only point in bringing that tradition up.
  • So I understood from your reply that if only the Jews listening to Jesus had correctly understood their own Scripture (meaning as you do) then we would never have had at least 3 millennium of people falsely believing the dead are very much aware and existing or at least so many people believing that.
  • Jesus would have to know that as well, yet He is mysteriously and yet to be addressed or explained by you so totally unconcerned that they believe as they do that He gives them a story which helps them further that belief. I cannot think of another example of or the idea of Love for those people or the idea of being Good which allows me to accept that God would do that to those people. That was my point. Which you disregard by ignoring and wanting to talk about what you think all a bunch of Scripture says to you, which is fine and I know you think it means that, but not what my point was attempting to refute and I doubt that would be a successful attack anyway. I know you believe Scripture says that to you and must assume you would not believe so otherwise. So why would I bother simply saying no it doesn't as it should be rather obvious to you as well, unless you assume me a simpleton, that I do not think Scripture was ever meant to tell us that.
Now you elaborate or I missed your intention about whether the damned existing at that moment then if it necessarily follows that the damned will always exist eternally. That is true and a good point, but a different discussion apart from what that parable expresses, though it is very much related but the idea that they should exist in torment eternally is certainly not denied by Jesus's parable.
  • If the damned in the parable are agreed to exist and are so obviously consciously suffering as depicted then one has accepted already it is Good that it be so, otherwise God would have it some other way.
  • Yet, those people already faced death once and yet still exist and are still shown consciously suffering and we seem to agree that is Good. It also helps that is so & Good with our concept of God being Just and there being a need in the next life to restore the obvious and huge imbalances we see in this life in regards to what is Just. Which is also why such a thought of the wicked dead being eternally tormented occurred very naturally (without any Scripture) to people long, long, long, long ago.
  • So it is not like the story as depicted refutes such notions, but is it true that it does not support eternal torment at all? To me the only need to have the damned suffer at all is to restore the imbalance, and so the story supports that need. The fact that any of the damned can be depicted or existing at all then should lead us to ask whether or not God could allow sufficient pain/suffering and precisely no more after which He could allow the end the existence of the damned. (How it could be possible to have something other than God to end it or God Himself "doing it" are a different issues which each create additional troubling thoughts about those notions).
  • So if we accept either that God could do that or at least allow it, He could have/allow the intensity of the suffering to vary and that it is being done to restore the imbalance in Justice that each of those damned people helped to create. So then why should we not suggest (as some indeed do) that it would be better if all the damned cease to exist rather quickly than have them linger? What would be the Good need to have them linger around in anguish if a quick, even if greatly more painful ending could come as we said God could Will or perhaps allow something else to make it happen rather quickly?
  • As I could see no Good reason why such an existence should not end quickly, then we should wonder why any are still present and suffering at all. That God allows to linger suggest there must be Good reason. As their suffering can only represent a debt they owe and a restoration of the imbalance they added to the wrong side of, the fact any of them can still be shown present AFTER they had already made their total contribution to that debt and imbalance (during this life) can only logically mean one thing to me. It will never end because it cannot not end without restoring not just their debt to GOOD, but also restore a balance.
  • As we already agreed if the dept/imbalance exists and that IF it could be restored in a shorter amount of time then it would be. So the existence now of any of the damned supports that ONLY an eternal existence in that state restores the debt/imbalance. Which is supported by God's depiction of them in His parable, which Jesus hardly suggested the rich man was particularly unique or being treated special (as in lasting longer than others of the damned). Nothing in regards to his wickedness, the imbalance it created or even addressing the degree of his wickedness - which we could certainly imagine worse-suggests his continued existence was unique among the damned or for that matter coming to an end.
 
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DrBubbaLove

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RootofJesse said:
No ... in fact "the point remains" -- the same point. Just as I responded to Root of Jesse's suggestion that I or someone here was blindly taking everything that ECF's came up with. We don't. Rather we test all doctrine and tradition by the sola scriptura method -- which does not result in the nonsensical "so we reject all doctrine and tradition" that some have proposed using the fallacy of reductio ad absurdum. As I am sure we can all see by now.
BTW Bob, this is another gross distortion I just noticed and perhaps you would like to retract now and claim it was not your intent. In this case of your opinion about Root of Jesse's comment at best - and am not certain it was meant to be taken for what I could consider "at best" as it seems rather intentional towards me and disparaging towards Root of Jesse as well. Which is why I added empty quote to him as when people make embedded comments in a reply to me which are either directed at or allegedly attributable to someone else, am not sure that other person has been given sufficient notice of it. Nor in this particular case do I think the person doing so has any good intent in making such remarks, so I thought Root of Jesse should see this.

Root was replying not to someone who particularly holds any belief of a ECF in any regard, but to someone who had suggested because in HIS OPINION one particular ECF quotes (there are actually 2 others) have been allegedly said by some (meaning in some credible position to know) to have supported a very unorthodox position which that poster suggested to Root meant that the orthodox here are unable to appeal to that particular ECF and essentially being dishonest with themselves and everyone here in attempting to appeal at all to him or any of the ECFs for support. It was to those allegations that Root of Jesse's very brief reply was made to someone else and you felt the need to comment on. Which makes your above comment disingenuous at best and I strongly suspect the intent behind that comment was worse than disingenuous, at least if you did bother to have followed their discussion.

As to being disingenuous, the reference that our discussion can be broken down into my making a fallacy regarding someone using a "method" is not just disingenuous (again at best) but indeed actually absurd. As I stated earlier that it was NOT clear to me at all the "method" in question is even understood by the person claiming to use the method here, it would be impossible to view me as having used a fallacy to draw a conclusion about how one had used that a "method". I said before I am not even certain one understands much less have used that method in explaining why you clearly said Mark 7 has Jesus "hammering the traditions" of the one true Church of His day. How could I commit any fallacy in any reply against your use of something I am not certain you understand much less used in that reply?

I can understand the need to be careful in making sweeping statements of the traditions of One True Churches and once made, the need to back track and attempt to qualify that by "traditions" of the "one true" Church that one had somehow intended us to understand that meant only the bad ones. But consider that the statement was made to refute what the same poster knows to be a part of all traditions of the One True Church today to posters here that see themselves as members of that Church and so bound to accept all such Tradition. And then consider that is a point any 7 day Adventist here not being disingenuous would certainly be aware of, we all should absolutely understand the intent, purpose and tone of the original statement was exactly what it was. I can accept that the poster is sorry that statement was made - and now wishes to qualify what was said and attempt to claim it was never intended that way in the first place. But just like what was said about Root of Jesse's post above by same poster, I cannot accept the claim that it was never intended to be taken that way. Nope. Which makes the effort now disingenuous so just let go. You posted what you posted. It is not like I reported it or anything. Not my style.
 
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Timothew

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There is a lot here, too much, I think. You really do seem to overcomplicating things.
Let me sum up my view and then I will address your specific objections (which I don't believe are actually objections to the view I actually hold!) (My Scripture quotations are generally from the ESV, also sometimes I use NIV, Scriptures quoted from memory tend to be NIV, since I've been immersed in that version longer. If a point requires looking into the Greek text, I tend to use USB4, and then I would post the actual text along with a rough translation.)

God created Adam and Eve, and through them created every other person. So God created every person, also see Psalm 139:13 "You knit me together in my mother's womb".
So you see that we have life through God and only because of God. Without God, we can't have life. He created us and He sustains us. This applies whether or not we are believers. God created people, some are believers and some are not, but the Lord created us all.
The Bible says in Romans that (which you will also recall from Genesis) that man sinned and this is how death came into the world. Romans 5:12 says "Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned-". Paul goes on to to say in Romans 6:23 that the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life. See how this all makes sense and fits together? If the penalty for sin was something other than death, then death would not have come into the world because of sin. If the penalty for sin was eternal conscious torment, then Paul would have said "Just as sin came into the world through one man, and eternal conscious torment came through sin..." But of course, Paul did not say that.
So our problem is that all of us have sinned, and we will all die because of sin. But we also know that God can resurrect the dead. You agree, right? So even if we die, we can be resurrected again. Impossible for us, but very possible for God, who made us and sustains us. But God says that the wages of sin is death. If we have sins credited to us, we still owe the penalty for sin which is death. The outcome of sin is death. Paul said in Romans 6:21 "But what fruit were you getting from those things (sin) of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death." So do you agree that the natural result of sin is death? So the question is, How do we receive eternal life having sinned?" The answer to that is having our sins paid for by Christ's death on the cross. We give Him our sins, and His death pays the debt of death that we owe. He takes our death upon Himself, and in exchange He gives us eternal life. We will receive this gift of eternal life when He returns in glory. So, those who reject Jesus Christ, do they also receive eternal life? No, because they hold onto their sins, they do not give their sins to Christ, so their sins are not forgiven. They remain under the penalty of death. When they are resurrected on judgment day, there is still sin on their "account". They owe the wages of sin, which is death. When they die after the resurrection, they no longer live. They remain dead. The Bible refers to this second death as "the second death". I don't know why you would have the slightest problem accepting any of this, since this is specifically what the Bible says.

So to recap:
1. We are born.
2. We live (either giving our sins to Christ or keeping them on ourselves)
3. We die
4. We are all resurrected on Judgment Day (For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ - 2 Corinthians 5:10)
4A. Those who have had their sins forgiven remain alive forever, for the wages of sin is death, but they no long have sin, their sin was removed by Christ on the cross.
4B. Those who held onto their sin also appear before the judgment seat of Christ, and as you know, the wages of sin is death, so these go off to their second death. This death is eternal, since there is no other resurrection except for the resurrection of Christ, who they rejected.

Now to address your specific objections to what I have told you from the Scriptures:

Again and let me be clear, asking a question is not a claim I said you said something or even that you MUST believe something.
A straight denial that your view has God changing His Mind about our existence. Ok. But consider, at least in the orthodox world, God is the reason we exist. He created us and in a very real sense He holds our existence in the palm of His Hands. So am unclear how a view which says we exist from birth, all cease to exist at death, all return to exist "again" and then finally some cease to exist "again" does not represent God changing His Mind about whether we should exist or not. Again a question is not a statement about what you believe. Does God not make us exist or not exist? And if not what controls our existence?
As I said, we exist because of God, and we can be destroyed because of sin. Sin entered the world through one man and death through sin.

Copies vs resurrection of same people - what is the difference in your view.
There is no reason to believe that the person who is resurrected from death is a different person than the person who died. Look at an example of a resurrection from the Bible. Luke 7:11-15, the resurrection of the widow's son. Luke 7:12 says "a man who had died was being carried out." Luke 7:15 says "And the dead man sat up..." Luke doesn't say "A different man sat up" or "a copy of the dead man sat up". Luke says "The dead man sat up", this means the SAME man, not a copy of the man. Our resurrection will be the same, when I am resurrected from the dead, it will be ME who sits up, not a copy of me.

Yes that God brings people back is indeed part of our Creed but in our case our existence as individual persons is continuous,
The resurrection of the dead is part of your Creed, the continuous of existence is not part of the Nicene Creed. The Creed says "I look for the resurrection of the DEAD", it doesn't say "I look for the resurrection of the LIVING".

I hope I fully answered your objection of the resurrection of the dead versus a resurrection of a copy of the dead.

Ok, so the question about how in a non-continuous view of all of our existences, how can we view non-existence as punishment.
The wicked are punished by being destroyed. How is that NOT a punishment? They no longer exist, this is the worst possible outcome. Their punishment is their destruction, If you want to claim that this is NOT a punishment, so need to prove that they are in the same condition after their destruction as they were before they were destroyed. In other words you need to prove that destruction is equal to non-destruction. Is destruction exactly the same as the opposite of destruction? How so?

(I deleted your rehash of the "resurrection-copy" argument since I addressed this earlier in the post)

So if the dread of non-existence is part of the punishment then we all face that dread.
I do not believe that the DREAD of destruction is part of the punishment. I believe that eternal destruction is the punishment. See 2 Thessalonians 1:9 "These pay the penalty of eternal destruction", see also every other verse that says the penalty is destruction.
The only punishment of the damned is fear/dread and then only a fear/dread of the knowledge that one is facing something for the last time.
No. The punishment is not the fear/dread of destruction, instead the punishment is the actual destruction of the wicked.
I would suggest that some people would object that having all the damned face the exact same punishment (which is not the orthodox view BTW) makes there being Justice for any unpunished wickedness very doubtful, which means God leaves the injustice of this world not fully accounted for.
If you object to all of the wicked facing the same punishment, then you should object to all of the wicked facing the same punishment of eternal conscious torment. But you shouldn't object to all of the wicked facing the same punishment, since all sin is sin against God and requires the punishment that God requires, and He said in the Bible that the wages of sin is death.
He doesn't say that the penalty for BIG sins is Big Death and the penalty for little sins is little death.

So that point now about this view and the issue it raises with restoring universally the balance of Justice is reinforced by having all the damned face the same punishment - if indeed that is your belief.
Justice is acheived when the wicked are no more.

If you are concerning with restoring the balance of justice, and if you believe that only eternal torment restores the balance, then the balance of justice will never be restored, since by definition eternal torment never ends so the balance is never ultimately accomplished. The argument of restoration of judgment is "damning" to the doctrine of eternal torment, because neverending torment also never reaches the goal of reaching completion. The doctrine of the destruction of the wicked doesn't suffer from this flaw.
 
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Timothew

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Quote inserted just for reference for this continued reply to it.
Notice I skipped one reply earlier – the question of how ceasing to exist could be viewed as punishment. And the answer was acceptable – it could be seen as punishment in the same sense as capital punishment is, but not without its own difficulties in suggesting that similarity (ask me as this is getting too long already). So and as we covered before, this reply and the reason I asked – further reinforces the concept that it Is the fear/dread alone of facing the final and then unending period of non-existence – rather than any suffering at all which is the punishment of Hell. And I sort of got that from prior posts, but just wanted to be clear here. So this reply, as did the next two (no, no) on the dread/longing question (and opposed to what God depicted the dead so non-existent rich man having), any amount of suffering is utterly absent from this view. OK, got it. So this concept of a capital punishment is as utterly painless for the damned, which is sort of my meaning behind fearing going “poof”. Yeah we all could and probably should fear going “poof” but clearly that fear is nothing compared to facing eternal suffering. Just making sure I understood the position and that I could confidently still say there is no sense of restoring Justice in such a construct – at least in any sense that in restoring the imbalance we can obviously see around us now by repaying unpaid debts that imbalance has created. Poof does not do that.

So the why fear going “poof” since we all must face it. The reply was improper question because we should fear it because Jesus said we should. Ok, I do not understand that reply or my question was not phrased properly. You are saying our death=destruction of body and soul period. You say the second death for the damned is exactly the same thing only they are said to “never come back”. But you still have all us facing the very thing Jesus said we should fear – destruction of both body and soul when we die?
You are forgetting that Christians are resurrected to eternal life, so we do not need to fear the destruction of both body and soul when we die. Those who reject Christ should fear the destruction of both body and soul, since they do not receive eternal life. They will be destroyed, and they would be wise to fear it - and to do something to prevent it, putting their faith in Christ - yes?

I do drag on sometimes don’t I? So I essentially repeated an earlier question only worded it differently. I see the question about the damned getting over having their body and soul utterly destroyed after having already faced that once with rest of us. Your reply about that much is the same as before. The changing three times part is an allusion to in your view we (1)come into existence by God’s Hand at conception (presuming we agree with that much), we all are destroyed body and soul at our death – cease to exist (2) and we are “brought back” for another existence to be judged on our first existence (3). So people going through such a process have had three changes in their “state” of existence. And no that is not hard to understand it being your view – but understanding that is your view does not address the questions such a view raises.
I don't see any contradiction that God is able to raise the dead, and He does. God gives us eternal life by resurrecting us from the dead, and He certainly is capable of resurrecting the dead, and He is capable of sending the wicked to their deaths after resurrecting them for judgment.
 
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DrBubbaLove

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There is a lot here, too much, I think. You really do seem to overcomplicating things.
Let me sum up my view and then I will address your specific objections (which I don't believe are actually objections to the view I actually hold!) (My Scripture quotations are generally from the ESV, also sometimes I use NIV, Scriptures quoted from memory tend to be NIV, since I've been immersed in that version longer. If a point requires looking into the Greek text, I tend to use USB4, and then I would post the actual text along with a rough translation.)

God created Adam and Eve, and through them created every other person. So God created every person, also see Psalm 139:13 "You knit me together in my mother's womb".
So you see that we have life through God and only because of God. Without God, we can't have life. He created us and He sustains us. This applies whether or not we are believers. God created people, some are believers and some are not, but the Lord created us all.
The Bible says in Romans that (which you will also recall from Genesis) that man sinned and this is how death came into the world. Romans 5:12 says "Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned-". Paul goes on to to say in Romans 6:23 that the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life. See how this all makes sense and fits together? If the penalty for sin was something other than death, then death would not have come into the world because of sin. If the penalty for sin was eternal conscious torment, then Paul would have said "Just as sin came into the world through one man, and eternal conscious torment came through sin..." But of course, Paul did not say that.
So our problem is that all of us have sinned, and we will all die because of sin. But we also know that God can resurrect the dead. You agree, right? So even if we die, we can be resurrected again. Impossible for us, but very possible for God, who made us and sustains us. But God says that the wages of sin is death. If we have sins credited to us, we still owe the penalty for sin which is death. The outcome of sin is death. Paul said in Romans 6:21 "But what fruit were you getting from those things (sin) of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death." So do you agree that the natural result of sin is death? So the question is, How do we receive eternal life having sinned?" The answer to that is having our sins paid for by Christ's death on the cross. We give Him our sins, and His death pays the debt of death that we owe. He takes our death upon Himself, and in exchange He gives us eternal life. We will receive this gift of eternal life when He returns in glory. So, those who reject Jesus Christ, do they also receive eternal life? No, because they hold onto their sins, they do not give their sins to Christ, so their sins are not forgiven. They remain under the penalty of death. When they are resurrected on judgment day, there is still sin on their "account". They owe the wages of sin, which is death. When they die after the resurrection, they no longer live. They remain dead. The Bible refers to this second death as "the second death". I don't know why you would have the slightest problem accepting any of this, since this is specifically what the Bible says.

So to recap:
1. We are born.
2. We live (either giving our sins to Christ or keeping them on ourselves)
3. We die
4. We are all resurrected on Judgment Day (For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ - 2 Corinthians 5:10)
4A. Those who have had their sins forgiven remain alive forever, for the wages of sin is death, but they no long have sin, their sin was removed by Christ on the cross.
4B. Those who held onto their sin also appear before the judgment seat of Christ, and as you know, the wages of sin is death, so these go off to their second death. This death is eternal, since there is no other resurrection except for the resurrection of Christ, who they rejected.

Now to address your specific objections to what I have told you from the Scriptures:


As I said, we exist because of God, and we can be destroyed because of sin. Sin entered the world through one man and death through sin.


There is no reason to believe that the person who is resurrected from death is a different person than the person who died. Look at an example of a resurrection from the Bible. Luke 7:11-15, the resurrection of the widow's son. Luke 7:12 says "a man who had died was being carried out." Luke 7:15 says "And the dead man sat up..." Luke doesn't say "A different man sat up" or "a copy of the dead man sat up". Luke says "The dead man sat up", this means the SAME man, not a copy of the man. Our resurrection will be the same, when I am resurrected from the dead, it will be ME who sits up, not a copy of me.


The resurrection of the dead is part of your Creed, the continuous of existence is not part of the Nicene Creed. The Creed says "I look for the resurrection of the DEAD", it doesn't say "I look for the resurrection of the LIVING".

I hope I fully answered your objection of the resurrection of the dead versus a resurrection of a copy of the dead.


The wicked are punished by being destroyed. How is that NOT a punishment? They no longer exist, this is the worst possible outcome. Their punishment is their destruction, If you want to claim that this is NOT a punishment, so need to prove that they are in the same condition after their destruction as they were before they were destroyed. In other words you need to prove that destruction is equal to non-destruction. Is destruction exactly the same as the opposite of destruction? How so?

(I deleted your rehash of the "resurrection-copy" argument since I addressed this earlier in the post)


I do not believe that the DREAD of destruction is part of the punishment. I believe that eternal destruction is the punishment. See 2 Thessalonians 1:9 "These pay the penalty of eternal destruction", see also every other verse that says the penalty is destruction.
No. The punishment is not the fear/dread of destruction, instead the punishment is the actual destruction of the wicked.

If you object to all of the wicked facing the same punishment, then you should object to all of the wicked facing the same punishment of eternal conscious torment. But you shouldn't object to all of the wicked facing the same punishment, since all sin is sin against God and requires the punishment that God requires, and He said in the Bible that the wages of sin is death.
He doesn't say that the penalty for BIG sins is Big Death and the penalty for little sins is little death.


Justice is acheived when the wicked are no more.

If you are concerning with restoring the balance of justice, and if you believe that only eternal torment restores the balance, then the balance of justice will never be restored, since by definition eternal torment never ends so the balance is never ultimately accomplished. The argument of restoration of judgment is "damning" to the doctrine of eternal torment, because neverending torment also never reaches the goal of reaching completion. The doctrine of the destruction of the wicked doesn't suffer from this flaw.
If you do not want response to your various claims then I am unclear why one would ask me to reply. If I try simple spurts it seems people want to just dismiss it as my having said that someone said something or believed something when that is not what I did.
You appeal to existence to explain how/why God needs to end it and that you see His ending it as restoring a balance our sins created. So at your request I will try to be brief and just address one thing even though you spewed much in the above post I could equally disagree with.

So this view of an end to existence should mean - not that you said this or believe this - that imagining Hitler going "poof" and never existing "again" (not that anyone here believes they know that will happen to him) that that act and whatever amount of resulting fear/dread Hitler would be imagined to have before that "poof" somehow restores balance to the injustice his life clearly excelled at representing to us. Am really unclear how anyone could make that conclusion. And as far as simple, we should ask some of the Jewish or Polish folks still alive that directly experienced some of the horrors as children which represent a huge injustice if "poof" works for them. I don't see how the expression of my objection to that thought gets any simpler than that.
 
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DrBubbaLove

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You are forgetting that Christians are resurrected to eternal life, so we do not need to fear the destruction of both body and soul when we die. Those who reject Christ should fear the destruction of both body and soul, since they do not receive eternal life. They will be destroyed, and they would be wise to fear it - and to do something to prevent it, putting their faith in Christ - yes?


I don't see any contradiction that God is able to raise the dead, and He does. God gives us eternal life by resurrecting us from the dead, and He certainly is capable of resurrecting the dead, and He is capable of sending the wicked to their deaths after resurrecting them for judgment.
I did not forget at all. How can I be said to forget when I said Jesus said we should fear the death of body and soul and pointed out that you have us all experiencing just that, at least as I understand your position. The fact you have us all utterly destroyed body and soul by death then imagine some being utterly destroyed body and soul again only to remain permanently "that way" does not mean both "deaths" are not utterly destroying BOTH body and soul. Isn't your claim that death always means the total destruction of BOTH body and soul and did Jesus not say we should fear the destruction of BOTH?

Jesus did not say fear only the One that make the destruction of death permanent. He said fear the One that can destroy BOTH body and soul, which you have occurring once for all of us. So by that logic we should fear now someone who can kill us because Jesus said that death - according to your definition of dying - we are utterly destroyed both body and soul -and Jesus said that is something to be feared. Jesus could have said do not fear the One who could make that utter destruction of BOTH body and soul permanent but that is not what He said. In fact he did not suggest that someone who kills me now could even harm my soul at all - and that point being the very reason we should NOT fear that death as it only effects the body, at least in any utter sense. So my attacker may cause my body to die but not my soul - so no fear of that threat of dying. Which means my death now CANNOT effect the existence of my soul in any way, though if my soul still has me aware in some sense I should in fact fear whatever may or may not happen to my soul next - but that has nothing to do with not fearing the death of this body.

And btw adding - nothing about my beliefs or what I have actually stated about yours means I think or that I think you think God incapable of either what I say He will do or what you claim He could do. So this is not about whether God has the ability of making us not exist. It would be about whether He would do that and perhaps if He did do that How could we view that as Good thing. We could also ask if He did do that in what sense is the notion of "bringing back" someone who has ceased to exist different from simply recreating that person.
Which then raises questions about how the lack of continuity to our existence could be seen as having subsequent existences rewarding or punishing either "existence". As it could only be referred to as something being done to our current existence for something from our former existence. Which as best, to me anyway, is a bit unsettling. The whole idea of having that former existence live with the hope of seeing some future possible other existence after having NOT existed in between and still feeling a connection with that potential future existence all seems muddled - certainly not simple.
 
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mmksparbud

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Obviously we missed each other. I thought we were talking about because you had asked, where in the world we can find the notion in Scripture that the damned exist in eternal torment eternally just as those in Heaven will exist eternally. While some of my replies may have been lengthy what I said is Jesus depicted something, you denied what I said He depicted which is a very literal reading of that text (which goes to the OPs claim of supposedly how he thinks we should read at least the parts of the Bible he wants to read that way and not other parts like this one that he disagrees with) ---you denied that what I said is what God meant when He said it. I replied that I do not see how anyone can make that denial given what He said and WHO He said to, who then and now believe with perhaps at least 3 millenniums worth of people have believed about the dead. To hold your position you would have to deny Jesus meant them to continue believing exactly what they already believed, I see no way around that. At the very least you are claiming for whatever reason (pick one), that Jesus said something that most of those hearing already were very familiar and agreed with, without absolutely no indication He told them (or anyone) that that belief was wrong. So when you then replied those people SHOULD have read their own Scriptures and corrected themselves, several additional points are being made in attempt to support your claim about His giving us that parable.
That response means or at least it means to me that one thinks:
  • Because most of the Jews hearing Jesus did believe just as I do now and I did not understand you to be refuting that most of them did, then their having such a belief in my mind at least could only follow from study of their own Scripture and an understanding of it that did not conflict with their belief. The fact you might believe they either did not read their own Scripture or if they did at all did not understand it as you do I accepted as a given. Either way it does not help your cause because certainly some of the Jews present were very familiar with their own Scripture and did believe it supported the same view I and over 3 millennium of people have held. You don't even have a fraction of that time of people looking at the same Scriptures and holding to your tradition, that was my only point in bringing that tradition up.
  • So I understood from your reply that if only the Jews listening to Jesus had correctly understood their own Scripture (meaning as you do) then we would never have had at least 3 millennium of people falsely believing the dead are very much aware and existing or at least so many people believing that.
  • Jesus would have to know that as well, yet He is mysteriously and yet to be addressed or explained by you so totally unconcerned that they believe as they do that He gives them a story which helps them further that belief. I cannot think of another example of or the idea of Love for those people or the idea of being Good which allows me to accept that God would do that to those people. That was my point. Which you disregard by ignoring and wanting to talk about what you think all a bunch of Scripture says to you, which is fine and I know you think it means that, but not what my point was attempting to refute and I doubt that would be a successful attack anyway. I know you believe Scripture says that to you and must assume you would not believe so otherwise. So why would I bother simply saying no it doesn't as it should be rather obvious to you as well, unless you assume me a simpleton, that I do not think Scripture was ever meant to tell us that.
Now you elaborate or I missed your intention about whether the damned existing at that moment then if it necessarily follows that the damned will always exist eternally. That is true and a good point, but a different discussion apart from what that parable expresses, though it is very much related but the idea that they should exist in torment eternally is certainly not denied by Jesus's parable.
  • If the damned in the parable are agreed to exist and are so obviously consciously suffering as depicted then one has accepted already it is Good that it be so, otherwise God would have it some other way.
  • Yet, those people already faced death once and yet still exist and are still shown consciously suffering and we seem to agree that is Good. It also helps that is so & Good with our concept of God being Just and there being a need in the next life to restore the obvious and huge imbalances we see in this life in regards to what is Just. Which is also why such a thought of the wicked dead being eternally tormented occurred very naturally (without any Scripture) to people long, long, long, long ago.
  • So it is not like the story as depicted refutes such notions, but is it true that it does not support eternal torment at all? To me the only need to have the damned suffer at all is to restore the imbalance, and so the story supports that need. The fact that any of the damned can be depicted or existing at all then should lead us to ask whether or not God could allow sufficient pain/suffering and precisely no more after which He could allow the end the existence of the damned. (How it could be possible to have something other than God to end it or God Himself "doing it" are a different issues which each create additional troubling thoughts about those notions).
  • So if we accept either that God could do that or at least allow it, He could have/allow the intensity of the suffering to vary and that it is being done to restore the imbalance in Justice that each of those damned people helped to create. So then why should we not suggest (as some indeed do) that it would be better if all the damned cease to exist rather quickly than have them linger? What would be the Good need to have them linger around in anguish if a quick, even if greatly more painful ending could come as we said God could Will or perhaps allow something else to make it happen rather quickly?
  • As I could see no Good reason why such an existence should not end quickly, then we should wonder why any are still present and suffering at all. That God allows to linger suggest there must be Good reason. As their suffering can only represent a debt they owe and a restoration of the imbalance they added to the wrong side of, the fact any of them can still be shown present AFTER they had already made their total contribution to that debt and imbalance (during this life) can only logically mean one thing to me. It will never end because it cannot not end without restoring not just their debt to GOOD, but also restore a balance.
  • As we already agreed if the dept/imbalance exists and that IF it could be restored in a shorter amount of time then it would be. So the existence now of any of the damned supports that ONLY an eternal existence in that state restores the debt/imbalance. Which is supported by God's depiction of them in His parable, which Jesus hardly suggested the rich man was particularly unique or being treated special (as in lasting longer than others of the damned). Nothing in regards to his wickedness, the imbalance it created or even addressing the degree of his wickedness - which we could certainly imagine worse-suggests his continued existence was unique among the damned or for that matter coming to an end.



Good grief, How many times I have to ask---show me where the bible states that the lost are given eternal life--show me where the rich man PARABLE states he is burning in hell forever---no thesis needed. Don't need opinions, just state the verses please!!
Now there is a third request--show me where I said "So when you then replied those people SHOULD have read their own Scriptures and corrected themselves, "---Please quote that post.

already agreed if the dept/imbalance exists and that IF it could be restored in a shorter amount of time then it would be. [/QUOTE]

Where did we agree about any imbalance---4th request--post that agreement!! You keep saying I'm saying things I have not said--if I said something that you need to state---then quote it!!T here is no imbalance---eternal life, opposite is eternal death--not eternal dying.

You've been given the verses from the old testament of what the Jews believed, long, long ago. Did you not read them?? Do you know what a parable is? They are fictitious stories told to make a point. The parable of the sower was a fictitious story about how people receive the word of God, it was not factual story about agriculture. Christ spoke to the public in parables only. The rich man is a fictitious story the point being this:

(Luk 16:30) "He said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’
Luk 16:31) "He said to him, ‘If they don’t listen to Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded if one rises from the dead.’"
 
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DrBubbaLove

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Good grief, How many times I have to ask---show me where the bible states that the lost are given eternal life--show me where the rich man PARABLE states he is burning in hell forever---no thesis needed. Don't need opinions, just state the verses please!!
Now there is a third request--show me where I said "So when you then replied those people SHOULD have read their own Scriptures and corrected themselves, "---Please quote that post.

already agreed if the dept/imbalance exists and that IF it could be restored in a shorter amount of time then it would be.

Where did we agree about any imbalance---4th request--post that agreement!! You keep saying I'm saying things I have not said--if I said something that you need to state---then quote it!!T here is no imbalance---eternal life, opposite is eternal death--not eternal dying.

You've been given the verses from the old testament of what the Jews believed, long, long ago. Did you not read them?? Do you know what a parable is? They are fictitious stories told to make a point. The parable of the sower was a fictitious story about how people receive the word of God, it was not factual story about agriculture. Christ spoke to the public in parables only. The rich man is a fictitious story the point being this:

(Luk 16:30) "He said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’
Luk 16:31) "He said to him, ‘If they don’t listen to Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded if one rises from the dead.’"
Cannot make it any clearer. We may have more books in our OT than the more modern tradition gives you, but our NT is actually identical in list-while certainly not identical sources if one of us is using what some maintain are grossly mistranslated versions intentionally done to support particular views. Which even if one does not use such a translation should make one wonder why someone felt the need to create a gross mistranslation if the meaning supporting those points was so evidently clear.
Playing "it says this, no it says that" is not a discussion I particularly find useful. Besides if there really was an interest on your part in knowing what verses support the eternal torment view then there many places far superior to these forums where you could go read all those to your content and still deny it says what people in a far better position (qualified and authoritative) than me (and I suspect you) are in to tell us what it means. So why should we bother playing dueling scripture and scripture renderings when we both know that is fruitless?
For just ONE example. Our Lord speaks in exactly equal terms in regards to the eternity of both Heaven and Hell. If I went no further than that I need no other verse to give you support for my claim about the suffering of the damned in Hell. I know you will turn around with a long discourse - if you present it fully - taking about the meaning of age and so on. So we end that easily if we say that I say yes, you say no - so who has made their point? Which of us is right about what Scripture supposes says?

If instead I take what the history of the Jews who not only believed, but have long believed about the eternity of suffering of the damned, long before God walked this earth as a man; combined with the fact He spoke to those same people as if He was not only perfectly fine with them believing that but supported the notion, then I am once again left with something, no matter what Aramaic was recorded or language He actually spoke - if I accept that story as it reads with the knowledge of what His audience believed - I need no further Scriptural support that God endorsed their view that wicked remain in torment eternally without even needing to demonstrate another Scripture saying specifically they still are and will forever remain in torment. So I did that already and just what I just stated is not deniable anyway - simple fact - they believed X, He endorses and reinforces their belief in X.
So yeah you could reply with a bunch of verses you think mean something while I could point out in each and every case that your understanding is NOT the only possible understanding, even if it were true that I could concede it COULD possibly mean what you claim - which is often not the case anyway. But to what end? So in essence your are correct at the futility of that type of exchange.
The only thing we have we accomplished here is simply that you would rather play a game of "yes it does- no it does not" with me rather than address the undeniable facts I presented in prior posts. The fact you want to avoid a rebuttal of any facts and insist I play what amounts to a school yard game demonstrates my point has already been made and apparently conceded. Good day sir.
 
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DrBubbaLove

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Now there is a third request--show me where I said "So when you then replied those people SHOULD have read their own Scriptures and corrected themselves, "---Please quote that post.
Sorry took a while for me to find what you did but I have it now.
In your first reply after I presented with the same facts presented again to you in the last post which you continue to ignore, you summarily dismissed those facts.Looking back on that now I can confidently suggest that by the time utter that Parable of the dead at least a millennium or probably twice that of Jews had read those same OT Scriptures and maintained a persistent belief in the eternal never ending suffering without end of the wicked. (we and I now called the damned). So it goes without saying they could not hold that position so persistently without seeing those OT Scriptures supporting it. You followed with a reply demanding instead of addressing those undeniable facts that we play "yes it does, no it doesn't " with Scripture. Your dismissal was the brilliant display of logic expressed with these 7 words in your post #179
"because some Jews used to believe in something."
Not sure how that display of logic helps your case that we aught to play "yes it does, no it doesn't" but I can agree perhaps that not everyone is prepared to address facts logically and would prefer to play games they think they are good at. Games which like tic-tac-toe prove nothing other than one likes to play games. I for one enjoy games, but those type of games do not appeal me to me anymore unless it is with my grandkids, and some of them need help learning the logic lessons of such games so am happy to play with them. I would like to assume most of us here have learned those lessons already. Which is why someone here expressing, no insisting they need or want to try to improve their skill at such games here is really lost on me. Fun stuff though, have at it with someone else.
 
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"because some Jews used to believe in something."

That is a far cry from what you claim I said---

So when you then replied those people SHOULD have read their own Scriptures and corrected themselves


And this is why it is non-productive to discuss anything with you. You do not seem to understand what is written and you twist things around and make statements that I have said this or that when I hadn't. And then you use more words than anyone I've ever read to say nothing. Sorry, but this is useless. This is game playing at a level I've seldom seen. Unbelievable. If you can't answer the question, then don't, but don't make stuff up! I asked for scriptures, you won't give them---fine, not a problem. They are obviously not there and neither are your ideas about forever torment in hell, not that you will ever admit that. It is more than obvious what the OT Jews believed as they wrote those verses you do not seem to like and want to make them mean something that was decided (by non-Jews )they meant hundreds of years after they were written. It's your right to believe whatever you want.
 
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