Can Feelings Be Trusted?

[Moodshadow]

You know, there will always be human beings who believe they have the "real, true" answers. When I was a naive, trusting 19-year-old girl, looking for truth, lacking in spiritual foundation, a couple of [not-much-older] LDS missionaries told me that I could be forgiven for every sin in my past and have an eternal family and live with them and God in the eternities. All I had to do was to have faith in Jesus Christ, repent of my sins, be baptized, obey the promptings of the Holy Ghost, and keep the commandments, and this incredible gift would be mine! Of course I believed that the feelings I had when I prayed for my answer were straight from God: "It's true! It's true! Joseph Smith was a prophet! Join, join, join!" - and join I did. Now fast-forward thirty-nine years, when I learned - not from feelings or even so-called promptings but from hard, cold, well-documented historical facts - that Joseph Smith was a charming, cunning, charismatic con-man, and all of those years suddenly seemed to cave in all around me. It was a stunning epiphany, to put it mildly, and if you never have one a fraction as excruciating, count your blessings. Looking back, I can say with all certitude that to trust feelings in matters of spirituality is foolhardy. Trusting the Word of God, trusting the Bible, trusting the Lamb of God, is the only safe way. All other ways are taken at our own peril.

 

[TasteForTruth]

You know, there will always be human beings who believe they have the "real, true" answers. When I was a naive, trusting 19-year-old girl, looking for truth, lacking in spiritual foundation, a couple of [not-much-older] LDS missionaries told me that I could be forgiven for every sin in my past and have an eternal family and live with them and God in the eternities. All I had to do was to have faith in Jesus Christ, repent of my sins, be baptized, obey the promptings of the Holy Ghost, and keep the commandments, and this incredible gift would be mine! Of course I believed that the feelings I had when I prayed for my answer were straight from God: "It's true! It's true! Joseph Smith was a prophet! Join, join, join!" - and join I did. Now fast-forward thirty-nine years, when I learned - not from feelings or even so-called promptings but from hard, cold, well-documented historical facts - that Joseph Smith was a charming, cunning, charismatic con-man, and all of those years suddenly seemed to cave in all around me. It was a stunning epiphany, to put it mildly, and if you never have one a fraction as excruciating, count your blessings. Looking back, I can say with all certitude that to trust feelings in matters of spirituality is foolhardy. Trusting the Word of God, trusting the Bible, trusting the Lamb of God, is the only safe way. All other ways are taken at our own peril.

What I see in your experience is actually the opposite of what you say at the end. I see abandonment of trust in God (the answer to your prayer at 19) in favor of trusting man (the conclusions of historians, etc.). I know you don't see it that way, but that's my observation.

Ultimately, I do agree that we must trust God above all. That is the safe way.

 

[drstevej]

Trusting the Word of God, trusting the Bible, trusting the Lamb of God, is the only safe way. All other ways are taken at our own peril.

Amen. Beats singing praise to the man.

 

[Heterodoxus]

http://tinyurl.com/l4l5wd8​

 

[drstevej]

http://tinyurl.com/l4l5wd8​

Indeed... FACT is the focus of our faith. FEELINGS are the byproduct of FAITH.

FEELINGS are the caboose not the engine.

 

[bbbbbbb]

You know, there will always be human beings who believe they have the "real, true" answers. When I was a naive, trusting 19-year-old girl, looking for truth, lacking in spiritual foundation, a couple of [not-much-older] LDS missionaries told me that I could be forgiven for every sin in my past and have an eternal family and live with them and God in the eternities. All I had to do was to have faith in Jesus Christ, repent of my sins, be baptized, obey the promptings of the Holy Ghost, and keep the commandments, and this incredible gift would be mine! Of course I believed that the feelings I had when I prayed for my answer were straight from God: "It's true! It's true! Joseph Smith was a prophet! Join, join, join!" - and join I did. Now fast-forward thirty-nine years, when I learned - not from feelings or even so-called promptings but from hard, cold, well-documented historical facts - that Joseph Smith was a charming, cunning, charismatic con-man, and all of those years suddenly seemed to cave in all around me. It was a stunning epiphany, to put it mildly, and if you never have one a fraction as excruciating, count your blessings. Looking back, I can say with all certitude that to trust feelings in matters of spirituality is foolhardy. Trusting the Word of God, trusting the Bible, trusting the Lamb of God, is the only safe way. All other ways are taken at our own peril.

 

[Moodshadow]

What I see in your experience is actually the opposite of what you say at the end. I see abandonment of trust in God (the answer to your prayer at 19) in favor of trusting man (the conclusions of historians, etc.). I know you don't see it that way, but that's my observation.

Ultimately, I do agree that we must trust God above all. That is the safe way.

It took a very long time for me to sort this out, TFT, after I severed my membership - which had to be done first, no questions asked. I could absolutely no longer be associated with a church led by people who continued to perpetrate the fraud begun by Joseph Smith, period. But once that was accomplished, where was I? So many unanswered questions swirled around in my head, and this was a big one: what were those "promptings" I thought I had received, telling me that Joseph Smith was a prophet and that I should join the church? I was so young at the time, with very little religious training in my childhood, and hungry for truth and faith. Those attractive young elders were slick, well trained and persistent. I hated their flip-chart presentations, which, along with the yes-or-no questions they asked with them, were designed for imbeciles, but I devoured the messages, especially the part about eternal families. But at the end I was still uncertain and hemmed and hawed. Finally, after "my" missionary told me he was scheduled to be transferred the next week and it was now or never, I agreed to be baptized. When I prayed for confirmation, I felt warm and happy all over, and I truly believed and understood that to be the "burning in the bosom" promised by the elders. A year later I was married in the temple, brought seven wonderful children into the world, held every calling imaginable, and served happily and faithfully for thirty-nine years. When I learned, quite by accident, that Joseph Smith was a fraud, I think I'd have been happier at the time to have been swallowed up by an earthquake. What about that still, small voice back in 1964? Was it meaningless? Had I imagined it? I honestly believe now, after endless soul-searching and deep thought and much prayer, that I simply wanted it into existence - and I believe that many other people do the same thing. You can believe it or not believe it, but there it is.

As for those "conclusions of historians," please bear in mind that these particular historians were and still are very active LDS women who requested and received permission from the general authorities to access church archives, and those records were their source materials. They meticulously documented those sources in their book for the whole world to see, and to their everlasting credit, they were scrupulously careful not to interpose their own opinions into the material as they wrote, so the only "conclusions" to be drawn can only be based on pure, documented history. I may have gone into the church based on feelings, but I went out of it based only on FACTS.

 

[drstevej]

What about that still, small voice back in 1964? Was it meaningless? Had I imagined it? I honestly believe now, after endless soul-searching and deep thought and much prayer, that I simply wanted it into existence - and I believe that many other people do the same thing. You can believe it or not believe it, but there it is.

Experiences are like that. Especially when there is a context expecting a given experience and rewarding that experience with acceptance.

 

[TasteForTruth]

It took a very long time for me to sort this out, TFT, after I severed my membership - which had to be done first, no questions asked. I could absolutely no longer be associated with a church led by people who continued to perpetrate the fraud begun by Joseph Smith, period. But once that was accomplished, where was I? So many unanswered questions swirled around in my head, and this was a big one: what were those "promptings" I thought I had received, telling me that Joseph Smith was a prophet and that I should join the church? I was so young at the time, with very little religious training in my childhood, and hungry for truth and faith. Those attractive young elders were slick, well trained and persistent. I hated their flip-chart presentations, which, along with the yes-or-no questions they asked with them, were designed for imbeciles, but I devoured the messages, especially the part about eternal families. But at the end I was still uncertain and hemmed and hawed. Finally, after "my" missionary told me he was scheduled to be transferred the next week and it was now or never, I agreed to be baptized. When I prayed for confirmation, I felt warm and happy all over, and I truly believed and understood that to be the "burning in the bosom" promised by the elders. A year later I was married in the temple, brought seven wonderful children into the world, held every calling imaginable, and served happily and faithfully for thirty-nine years. When I learned, quite by accident, that Joseph Smith was a fraud, I think I'd have been happier at the time to have been swallowed up by an earthquake. What about that still, small voice back in 1964? Was it meaningless? Had I imagined it? I honestly believe now, after endless soul-searching and deep thought and much prayer, that I simply wanted it into existence - and I believe that many other people do the same thing. You can believe it or not believe it, but there it is.

As for those "conclusions of historians," please bear in mind that these particular historians were and still are very active LDS women who requested and received permission from the general authorities to access church archives, and those records were their source materials. They meticulously documented those sources in their book for the whole world to see, and to their everlasting credit, they were scrupulously careful not to interpose their own opinions into the material as they wrote, so the only "conclusions" to be drawn can only be based on pure, documented history. I may have gone into the church based on feelings, but I went out of it based only on FACTS.

I cannot account for your life or experience, and I know you're not asking me to. You once equated facts with truth. I don't believe man's summing up of the facts always equals the truth. I rely on God to cast the final vote. That is all. But we've had this discussion before. Probably not needed to do it again.

 

[drstevej]

Keep sharing your story Moodshadow. I find it very encouraging.

 

[Phantasman]

The OP makes no discernible distinction between emotional feelings and spiritual feelings, but I believe the distinction is important. I believe that spiritual feelings (communications that our spirit receives from the Holy Spirit) are always trustworthy. I do not believe that emotional feelings can always be trusted, for they are very easily manipulated. The challenge is, in my mind, learning how to tell the difference between the two.

I agree with this as well. As I explore the spiritual aspects of all of the writings associated with the deity of God the Father and Jesus Christ, there is an inner "feeling" that beings the whole together in a much more understandable and different way for me. Of course, my way is not Orthodox, but also is shared by others.

If Christ proves me wrong, or the Bible shows me I'm wrong, I would listen. But the only time people say I'm wrong, is when I don't believe what they have come to believe from what they have to work with.

To "feel" one is saved is not the same as "feeling" one is being saved. To "feel" one has the Holy Spirit is not the same as one "Feeling" they are led by the Holy Spirit. We must examine ourselves to see what we feel, or are we just feeling something, and need to explore it further.

 

[A New Dawn]

Here is why I think we need to be wary of our feelings.

I grew up in a churched home, but I came to Christ when He reached down and made me His. With that action can a very specific feeling. A few years later, I went to work in Nauvoo and spent months in very close contact with a large number of LDS. I debated with them, I visited them in their homes, I went to church with them, and I received a really nice feeling from them, and, I considered converting to the LDS church. Not because I believed what they believed (I did not, in any way, believe their doctrines), but because of the feeling I got from them. At that time, I received a warning from God letting me know to compare that feeling I got from the LDS with the feeling I got from my regeneration, and they were not at all the same. God let me know that I needed to test the spirits and discern which were from Him and which weren't. I have never forgotten that lesson.

 

[Moodshadow]

I cannot account for your life or experience, and I know you're not asking me to. You once equated facts with truth. I don't believe man's summing up of the facts always equals the truth. I rely on God to cast the final vote. That is all. But we've had this discussion before. Probably not needed to do it again.

There are some so-called facts that do not equate with truth; about that you are correct. But when it comes to the historical facts we've been referencing concerning your beloved "prophet" Joseph Smith, I will never recant, and it was your own fellow LDS members/authors who enlightened me, with the well-documented facts contained in their book, the writing of which was an extraordinarily great service to the world. Many of those historical facts, by the way, before they received permission to access them, had long been held by the church authorities in locked-away vaults, and if you ever read the book, you will easily learn why. Why would I, or anyone else, not consider them to be truth? The general authorities obviously did; do you doubt your own "prophets, seers, and revelators?" These same church authorities did nothing to halt the publication of this book, though it was certainly an embarrassment to them after they discovered what was in it. For a while they even considered calling the authors' memberships into question - after having given them permission to use the archives! - can you believe that? Of course, since the women were married to "minor" general authorities and descended from pioneer LDS families, the GAs reconsidered and the women were reinstated to full fellowship after a brief period of humiliating probation. And no, I'm not making any of this up, and it's all so disgusting that it is even a small part of what took me out of the church - the main part, of course, being Joseph Smith's own absolute dishonesty, duplicity, narcissism, and the vainglorious debauchery he conducted everywhere he went, including under his own wife's very nose, in the name of God - just to name a few.

And yes, we've had this discussion before, and yes, you are right again: God will be the final Judge. For that I will be eternally grateful.

 

[Moodshadow]

Keep sharing your story Moodshadow. I find it very encouraging.

Thank you, Dr. Steve, for your kindness.

 

[Phantasman]

There are some so-called facts that do not equate with truth; about that you are correct. But when it comes to the historical facts we've been referencing concerning your beloved "prophet" Joseph Smith, I will never recant, and it was your own fellow LDS members/authors who enlightened me, with the well-documented facts contained in their book, the writing of which was an extraordinarily great service to the world. Many of those historical facts, by the way, before they received permission to access them, had long been held by the church authorities in locked-away vaults, and if you ever read the book, you will easily learn why. Why would I, or anyone else, not consider them to be truth? The general authorities obviously did; do you doubt your own "prophets, seers, and revelators?" These same church authorities did nothing to halt the publication of this book, though it was certainly an embarrassment to them after they discovered what was in it. For a while they even considered calling the authors' memberships into question - after having given them permission to use the archives! - can you believe that? Of course, since the women were married to "minor" general authorities and descended from pioneer LDS families, the GAs reconsidered and the women were reinstated to full fellowship after a brief period of humiliating probation. And no, I'm not making any of this up, and it's all so disgusting that it is even a small part of what took me out of the church - the main part, of course, being Joseph Smith's own absolute dishonesty, duplicity, narcissism, and the vainglorious debauchery he conducted everywhere he went, including under his own wife's very nose, in the name of God - just to name a few.

And yes, we've had this discussion before, and yes, you are right again: God will be the final Judge. For that I will be eternally grateful.

Do you believe Ignatius and Tertullian?

 

[Moodshadow]

Do you believe Ignatius and Tertullian?

If you're asking me personally, Sir, I admit to an ignorance of both that is quite complete.

 

[bbbbbbb]

If you're asking me personally, Sir, I admit to an ignorance of both that is quite complete.

Maybe it would help if we developed some good feelings about Ignatius and Tertullian.

 

[Phantasman]

If you're asking me personally, Sir, I admit to an ignorance of both that is quite complete.

They are the early church fathers that actually instituted the belief system the Orthodox Christians follow today. Also another church father, Irenaeus (180AD) wrote a book called "Against Heresies" in which he denounced all but the Catholic church as the Holy Church of God. Tertullian (200AD) was the first to use the term Trinity and though it wasn't immediately adopted by the church, later on it was. He also had influence on what books were chosen as Canon for the Bible that would happen years later.

From the time Ignatius, who succeeded Peter the Apostle as Bishop, there is about 100 years before a lot of changes started occurring and the church started changing. Marcion was a key player before all of this in 140AD with the first Canonical Bible. One Gospel and 10 of Pauls letters. No OT. There are a lot of questions why the Catholics changed so many things from the early religions, held the Bible in Latin for 1000 years (so only the church could read it) and held all power to God.

Orthodox Christianity outside of the Catholic church is only 400 years old. The first English Bible was hand written in 1380. And it was translated from Latin. In truth, the Codex Sinaiticus was recently found, and is now the oldest full Greek Bible, dated to 400AD. There are differences between it, and the Bible used today.

 

[ananda]

No, feelings cannot be trusted. Feelings, in my understanding, are largely biochemical responses in the body and brain, to thoughts expressed in the brain and spirit, and choices made by the spirit. The fact that pharmaceutical sorceries and vitamin-mineral balances in the body can alter one's feelings support that notion.

 

[x141]

I would have to say the pivotal point between whether they are good or bad is in relationship to the reasoning we are reasoning with at the time. Eventually we will understand that the two have become one in this respect to.

The wealth of God in us, is not based on how one feels, not in the slightest way, but in the same, for the moment, only hindered by it.