Can Feelings Be Trusted?

[MormonFriend]

The thief was one of the first fruits of salvation, and he followed Christ up to heaven when He ascended to his Father.

i see much assumption based on so few words on the subject.

43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. ( Luke 23)

That would be the day of our Savior's death. That day, and up to the third day Jesus was not with the Father, neither was the thief. The Father is not in Paradise. Where do you read that the thief followed and ascended with Christ to meet the Father after His ressurection?

So ....... Nothing about my response to the post on Paul's conversion?

I said plenty, but plan to get back on that. Paul's conversion was unique. It is more involved for discussion because of our difference in understanding our origin, pre earth existence vs. creatio ex nihilo.

 

[A New Dawn]

i see much assumption based on so few words on the subject.

43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. ( Luke 23)

That would be the day of our Savior's death. That day, and up to the third day Jesus was not with the Father, neither was the thief. The Father is not in Paradise. Where do you read that the thief followed and ascended with Christ to meet the Father after His ressurection?

And to be honest, I see a desire to be overly legalistic in reading this text when LDS employ the same reading assumptions into the text when it is as equally vague (like the baptism for the dead verse) when it is convenient for them.

 

[MormonFriend]

Originally Posted by MormonFriend
i see much assumption based on so few words on the subject.

43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. ( Luke 23)

That would be the day of our Savior's death. That day, and up to the third day Jesus was not with the Father, neither was the thief. The Father is not in Paradise. Where do you read that the thief followed and ascended with Christ to meet the Father after His ressurection?

And to be honest, I see a desire to be overly legalistic in reading this text when LDS employ the same reading assumptions into the text when it is as equally vague (like the baptism for the dead verse) when it is convenient for them.

I do not doubt your honesty, but it does not answer my direct question.

Responding to the LDS assumptions you refer to, I hope you keep that piece of the puzzle in our big picture of our 9th Article of Faith.

"We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God."

I acknowledge that you do not agree or believe in continuing revelation, but it sheds significance on what you call assumptions.

 

[A New Dawn]

I do not doubt your honesty, but it does not answer my direct question.

Responding to the LDS assumptions you refer to, I hope you keep that piece of the puzzle in our big picture of our 9th Article of Faith.

"We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God."

I acknowledge that you do not agree or believe in continuing revelation, but it sheds significance on what you call assumptions.

I do believe in continuing revelation. I believe that the Holy Spirit reveals to us the meaning of the text as we study and pray about it. Who's to say that your definition of "continuing revelation" is right and mine is wrong?

 

[MormonFriend]

I do believe in continuing revelation. I believe that the Holy Spirit reveals to us the meaning of the text as we study and pray about it. Who's to say that your definition of "continuing revelation" is right and mine is wrong?

The continuing revelation I refer to is God directing His affairs with man through prophets, and thus the equivilant of scripture is still in the making.

Your definition is also valid, but not complete ... in that action or obedience has major influence to obtaining true understanding.
Psalms 119:
100 I understand more than the ancients, because I keep thy precepts.
101 I have refrained my feet from every evil way, that I might keep thy word.
102 I have not departed from thy judgments: for thou hast taught me.
103 How sweet are thy words unto my taste! yea, sweeter than honey to my mouth!
104 Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way.

John 7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.


And how often have I quoted Job as saying that to depart from evil is undestanding? Job 28:28

Study and prayer is essential, but without a sincere devotion to live by the truth that the Spirit wants to give us, only opens the door for that one appearing as an angel of light to deceive us. Obedience to the precepts, as David declared, is that sincere devotion and opens the floodgates for the Spirit to pour out true understandings.

Thoughtfully, respectfully, and in a Spirit of love, that is why my definition is right, and yours is wrong.

 

[A New Dawn]

The continuing revelation I refer to is God directing His affairs with man through prophets, and thus the equivilant of scripture is still in the making.

Your definition is also valid, but not complete ... in that action or obedience has major influence to obtaining true understanding.
Psalms 119:
100 I understand more than the ancients, because I keep thy precepts.
101 I have refrained my feet from every evil way, that I might keep thy word.
102 I have not departed from thy judgments: for thou hast taught me.
103 How sweet are thy words unto my taste! yea, sweeter than honey to my mouth!
104 Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way.

John 7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.


And how often have I quoted Job as saying that to depart from evil is undestanding? Job 28:28

Study and prayer is essential, but without a sincere devotion to live by the truth that the Spirit wants to give us, only opens the door for that one appearing as an angel of light to deceive us. Obedience to the precepts, as David declared, is that sincere devotion and opens the floodgates for the Spirit to pour out true understandings.

Thoughtfully, respectfully, and in a Spirit of love, that is why my definition is right, and yours is wrong.

So you are suggesting that I am not obedient or devoted?

 

[Phantasman]

I believe that it is only the LDS who separate paradise from heaven. So, yes, when he went to paradise, he went to heaven to be in the presence of the Father.

The thief on the cross?

Matthew
43 He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if he will have him: for he said, I am the Son of God.
44The thieves also, which were crucified with him, cast the same in his teeth.

Yet Pauls apostle Luke, who wasn't there, is the only Gospel to even suggest Christ took the thief to paradise. Luke has the only version of Lazarus and the rich man. Luke didn't go town to town teaching the Gospel of Christ as the other disciples. So I don't rely on Luke as authoritative simply because the catholics chose it.

 

[MormonFriend]

So you are suggesting that I am not obedient or devoted?

Not in a finger pointing attitude. We are all disobedient and lack devotion, but we have the privledge, through choice, to change that. True repentance is gradual and dissipates disobedience and lack of devotion. During the process, understanding replaces those ill attributes. Understanding and disobedience cannot coexist. understanding and sin cannot coexist. That is why we walk by faith. For every principle we learn to obey, we gain the understanding of that principle (or doctrine). Hence, Isaiah teaches us that understanding comes line upon line and precept upon precept.

 

[A New Dawn]

Not in a finger pointing attitude. We are all disobedient and lack devotion, but we have the privledge, through choice, to change that. True repentance is gradual and dissipates disobedience and lack of devotion. During the process, understanding replaces those ill attributes. Understanding and disobedience cannot coexist. understanding and sin cannot coexist. That is why we walk by faith. For every principle we learn to obey, we gain the understanding of that principle (or doctrine). Hence, Isaiah teaches us that understanding comes line upon line and precept upon precept.

But you are linking being disobedient and not being devoted to the reason why I don't believe in your definition of continuing revelation. I'd like to remind you that I believed in continuing revelation until a mere few years ago, and it was by being obedient to God that I no longer believe in it.

 

[MormonFriend]

But you are linking being disobedient and not being devoted to the reason why I don't believe in your definition of continuing revelation. ...

. You asked why my definition was correct, or better, or more valid, or something. I said my definition was more complete bcause of the relation obedience has to understanding, with biblical examples. I have never intentionally or knowingly linked any specific reason for any personal situation in your life. I have too much on my plate on issues of my own life. I have linked some potential reasons or causes that apply to everyone on a general level. There are some I know that I do not post. And there are reasons or links that I do not know at all. Please do not bring our discussion on a personal level. The only personal exchange is that you forgive my weaknesses, and me yours. Without that there is no progress.

So, ... Do you agree in general doctrinal terms that obedience plays a role in understanding, according to the biblical examples I provided?

 

[A New Dawn]

So, ... Do you agree in general doctrinal terms that obedience plays a role in understanding, according to the biblical examples I provided?

I believe that any time we participate with the Holy Spirit in the process of sanctification that we receive greater understanding.

 

[Phantasman]

So, ... Do you agree in general doctrinal terms that obedience plays a role in understanding, according to the biblical examples I provided?

I will have to agree with Dawn, that obedience is a result of understanding through the Holy Spirit and not to place the cart before the horse.

Truth is surrounded by ignorance, and the Holy Spirit cuts through the ignorance to find the core of truth. Once truth is revealed, the spirit is elated.

Knowledge of the truth merely makes such people arrogant, which is what the words, "it makes them free" mean. It even gives them a sense of superiority over the whole world. But "Love builds up" (1 Co 8:1). In fact, he who is really free, through knowledge, is a slave, because of love for those who have not yet been able to attain to the freedom of knowledge. Knowledge makes them capable of becoming free.-Philip

For truth is like ignorance: while it is hidden, it rests in itself, but when it is revealed and is recognized, it is praised, inasmuch as it is stronger than ignorance and error. It gives freedom..... Ignorance is a slave. Knowledge is freedom. If we know the truth, we shall find the fruits of the truth within us. If we are joined to it, it will bring our fulfillment.-Philip

Whether one disregards Philip because it's not in Canon is of no importance. Truth is hidden. And man cannot contain it, though he may try.

 

[MormonFriend]

I will have to agree with Dawn, that obedience is a result of understanding through the Holy Spirit and not to place the cart before the horse.

...

And how does that harmonize, or how do you fit the puzzle pieces into the big picture that are represented by the scriptures I afore posted?

 

[A New Dawn]

And how does that harmonize, or how do you fit the puzzle pieces into the big picture that are represented by the scriptures I afore posted?

I assume you are referring to the scriptures in this post. (If not, please refer me to the correct post.)

The continuing revelation I refer to is God directing His affairs with man through prophets, and thus the equivilant of scripture is still in the making.

Your definition is also valid, but not complete ... in that action or obedience has major influence to obtaining true understanding.
Psalms 119:
100 I understand more than the ancients, because I keep thy precepts.
101 I have refrained my feet from every evil way, that I might keep thy word.
102 I have not departed from thy judgments: for thou hast taught me.
103 How sweet are thy words unto my taste! yea, sweeter than honey to my mouth!
104 Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way.

John 7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.


And how often have I quoted Job as saying that to depart from evil is undestanding? Job 28:28

Study and prayer is essential, but without a sincere devotion to live by the truth that the Spirit wants to give us, only opens the door for that one appearing as an angel of light to deceive us. Obedience to the precepts, as David declared, is that sincere devotion and opens the floodgates for the Spirit to pour out true understandings.

Thoughtfully, respectfully, and in a Spirit of love, that is why my definition is right, and yours is wrong.

The scriptures are also quite clear that one cannot even seek to know God in their natural (unregenerated) state.

Romans 3:10-12

As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.​

There is no way we can seek, let alone understand, God (or the things of God) until He first makes a change in us. Making the change in us cleanses us from (the penalty of) sin, making it possible for the Holy Spirit to dwell in us, who then guides us in all understanding.