Can anyone explain...

[now faith]

From the history I read up on Smith, I don't know I he did. I'm not making a claim that God will not hear the prayers of the elders of church to heal someone. I have a pastor/friend who does hospital and house visits of the sick and elderly. I have no doubt he prays for them.

I'm not going to claim my faith is so great and mighty. I recognize the analytical/pessimistic brain I have. Someone wants to claim some preacher like Smith or Benny Hinn heal people, then what they are truly claiming is an instance healing power that was demonstrated by Jesus and the Apostles in Acts. I want hard evidence Benny Hinn or Smith are who they say they are. If they are, people should have flocked to them in streets. Why would they flock to them? Because hard evidence forced them to believe it happened and they wanted some of that healing as well. What you find from all of these modern faith healers is scams. They wanna sale you something.

Yes, I flat out question the integrity of these individuals. They don't need to provide proof. Proof should be found that they loved people so much their healing people while walking the streets, going to the store or even walking to a hospital room of one of their parishioners.

But no. It never happens in these places. It happens in controlled environments where offerings are taken up.

It's a money scam. Preying on the sick.

I read Smith would never pray twice for a person because that meant they doubted. Scripturally, healing had nothing to do with the person's faith in being healed. At least most cases.

Much of the Healing that Christ preformed was based on the faith of who was being healed.

Mark: 5. 34. And he said unto her, Daughter, thy faith hath made thee whole; go in peace, and be whole of thy plague.
Wigglesworth and Hinn have nothing in common.
In a previous post you mentioned in Bible times they did not use temples for healing.
Jesus did,as well crowds gathered in the thousands around him,in those days that would be a huge venue.

Wigglesworth in his statements on Faith are logical.
If you need ask again ,what was the problem the first time?

Mark: 11. 22. And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God. 23. For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith. 24. Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them. 25. And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses. 26. But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.

 

[twin1954]

Why I am a cessasionist.


Why I am a cessationist. I admit that much of this comes from “ Signs of the Apostles” by Walter Chantry. He is not my only source but he did help shape my views. I also read many Pentecostal pages on the subject and found almost all of them saying pretty much the same thing. Only that the gifts had not ceased but not giving any real reason why. I also studied some Pentecostal history and was convinced that the modern day gifts were absent until about the 1800’s. Most of those who hold to modern day gifts trace their history to the so-called Azusa Street Revival which took place between 1906 to 1913. I must question why those gifts were absent, especially in the manner in which they are practiced today, until that time. Was not the Spirit working before that time?

Now to look at the way miracles and signs were used in the Scriptures.
Joseph was the first to receive extraordinary gifts from God. He didn’t work miracles but did do things that were not common. His gifts involved delivering divinely revealed truth. He was a Prophet of God.
Next we have Moses, the first to work miracles. His miracles were given as a sign that he came from God and spoke from God. This principle applies to all Old Testament miracles in that they were done as a sign that the one doing them was a Prophet from God and spoke for God. When they were done it was expected that the inspired word of God was to be spoken.

The miracles of Jesus are next in our study. His miracles were primarily to show His authority as the Prophet of God.

Joh 10:37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
Joh 10:38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.
Joh 3:1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
Joh 3:2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
Act 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

The miracles of the Apostles testified to their authority as God’s prophets, they who spoke the revelation of God.

Heb 2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;
Heb 2:4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?
New Testament miracles are, in Scripture, viewed as God’s stamp of approval on the message of the Apostles.

Ordinary Christians and gifts. After Pentecost every recorded instance of men receiving these gifts were under the direct ministry of an Apostle.

This brings me to the conclusion that no true servent of Christ will be given power to work miracles unless he is directly associated with bring fresh revelation from God. They are given as signs of God to show He sent the ones performing miracles and we should expect to hear from God when they are done. There are no more Apostles as there are no more that saw and heard directly from Christ as did those who gave us the Scriptures. Also to believe that men today receive a fresh revelation from God is to say the Scriptures are not sufficient.

Baptism in the Spirit is clearly shown to have taken place on the day of Pentecost.
Act 1:4 And having met with them, He commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to await the promise of the Father which you heard from Me.
Act 1:5 For John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized in the Holy Spirit not many days from now.
I do not find anywhere where there is a second work called a baptism in the Spirit. There are instances of fillings accompanied by the manifestations but only one baptism.

Speaking in tongues is only mentioned in Acts and 1Cor. If they were so important I believe they would have been spoken of in the other Epistles. The book of Romans was written after 1Cor. and the only gift repeated is prophesy, no mention of tongues.

The context of 1Cor. 12,13,14 is spiritual things not spiritual gifts. 1Cor. 12:1 does not have the word gift in it, it is another greek word altogether. Chapters 12&13 are concerned with divisions in the body, Some thinking they were higher in the body because of gifts. 14 merely teaches the proper use of tongues as opposed to prophesy in the Corinthian church not that they were to continue after the completed canon of Scripture.

These gifts were for a sign to unbelievers that they were speaking by God, that is , His word. I addressed this already.

As for 1Cor. 13:10 I do not believe that Paul is speaking of the completed canon of Scripture nor do I believe he was speaking of Christ, if he were he would have said Christ I believe. I am not sure what he is speaking of but I do think that it is possible that it is when we are glorified. Neither is he foretelling when the gifts will cease but only that they are temporary.

It seems clear to me that the book of Acts is a narration of the early Church and what happened to teach us how God established His Church in the world. It was not meant to teach doctrine nor should we learn doctrine from it exclusively. It should also be kept in mind that Paul wasn’t commending the Corinthians for their use of gifts but correcting them.

Now we have the complete inscripturated Word of God. The Apostles have all died and there are no more Apostles in the sense of those who were given special gifts and the ability to impart those gifts to men. I do believe it is clear from 1Cor. 13:11 that Paul is teaching that these things were for the establishing of the early Church. Modern day prophets claim to have new revelation from God and this denies that the Scripture are enough. I believe that Peter taught us that the Scriptures are mor to be believed than even our eyes or our experience.
2Pe 1:18 And we heard this voice being borne from Heaven, being with Him in the holy mountain.
2Pe 1:19 We also have a more sure Word of prophecy, to which you do well to take heed, as to a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawns and the Daystar arises in your hearts,
2Pe 1:20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of the Scripture came into being of its own private interpretation.
2Pe 1:21 For prophecy was not borne at any time by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke being borne along by the Holy Spirit.

Also God himself tells us that He has magnified His word even above His name.
Psa 138:2 I will worship toward Your holy temple, and praise Your name for Your loving-kindness and for Your truth's sake; for You have magnified Your Word above all Your name.

__________________

 

[Goodbook]

I dont think hinn was a baptist.
He was catholic before he became born again although I dont know him personally some ppl have issues with his theology.

Anyway, please keep to topic, i started this thread. Reminder...topic is explaining difference between southern baptists and other baptists.

 

[now faith]

Why I am a cessasionist.


Why I am a cessationist. I admit that much of this comes from “ Signs of the Apostles” by Walter Chantry. He is not my only source but he did help shape my views. I also read many Pentecostal pages on the subject and found almost all of them saying pretty much the same thing. Only that the gifts had not ceased but not giving any real reason why. I also studied some Pentecostal history and was convinced that the modern day gifts were absent until about the 1800’s. Most of those who hold to modern day gifts trace their history to the so-called Azusa Street Revival which took place between 1906 to 1913. I must question why those gifts were absent, especially in the manner in which they are practiced today, until that time. Was not the Spirit working before that time?

Now to look at the way miracles and signs were used in the Scriptures.
Joseph was the first to receive extraordinary gifts from God. He didn’t work miracles but did do things that were not common. His gifts involved delivering divinely revealed truth. He was a Prophet of God.
Next we have Moses, the first to work miracles. His miracles were given as a sign that he came from God and spoke from God. This principle applies to all Old Testament miracles in that they were done as a sign that the one doing them was a Prophet from God and spoke for God. When they were done it was expected that the inspired word of God was to be spoken.

The miracles of Jesus are next in our study. His miracles were primarily to show His authority as the Prophet of God.

Joh 10:37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
Joh 10:38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.
Joh 3:1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
Joh 3:2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
Act 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

The miracles of the Apostles testified to their authority as God’s prophets, they who spoke the revelation of God.

Heb 2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;
Heb 2:4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?
New Testament miracles are, in Scripture, viewed as God’s stamp of approval on the message of the Apostles.

Ordinary Christians and gifts. After Pentecost every recorded instance of men receiving these gifts were under the direct ministry of an Apostle.

This brings me to the conclusion that no true servent of Christ will be given power to work miracles unless he is directly associated with bring fresh revelation from God. They are given as signs of God to show He sent the ones performing miracles and we should expect to hear from God when they are done. There are no more Apostles as there are no more that saw and heard directly from Christ as did those who gave us the Scriptures. Also to believe that men today receive a fresh revelation from God is to say the Scriptures are not sufficient.

Baptism in the Spirit is clearly shown to have taken place on the day of Pentecost.
Act 1:4 And having met with them, He commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to await the promise of the Father which you heard from Me.
Act 1:5 For John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized in the Holy Spirit not many days from now.
I do not find anywhere where there is a second work called a baptism in the Spirit. There are instances of fillings accompanied by the manifestations but only one baptism.

Speaking in tongues is only mentioned in Acts and 1Cor. If they were so important I believe they would have been spoken of in the other Epistles. The book of Romans was written after 1Cor. and the only gift repeated is prophesy, no mention of tongues.

The context of 1Cor. 12,13,14 is spiritual things not spiritual gifts. 1Cor. 12:1 does not have the word gift in it, it is another greek word altogether. Chapters 12&13 are concerned with divisions in the body, Some thinking they were higher in the body because of gifts. 14 merely teaches the proper use of tongues as opposed to prophesy in the Corinthian church not that they were to continue after the completed canon of Scripture.

These gifts were for a sign to unbelievers that they were speaking by God, that is , His word. I addressed this already.

As for 1Cor. 13:10 I do not believe that Paul is speaking of the completed canon of Scripture nor do I believe he was speaking of Christ, if he were he would have said Christ I believe. I am not sure what he is speaking of but I do think that it is possible that it is when we are glorified. Neither is he foretelling when the gifts will cease but only that they are temporary.

It seems clear to me that the book of Acts is a narration of the early Church and what happened to teach us how God established His Church in the world. It was not meant to teach doctrine nor should we learn doctrine from it exclusively. It should also be kept in mind that Paul wasn’t commending the Corinthians for their use of gifts but correcting them.

Now we have the complete inscripturated Word of God. The Apostles have all died and there are no more Apostles in the sense of those who were given special gifts and the ability to impart those gifts to men. I do believe it is clear from 1Cor. 13:11 that Paul is teaching that these things were for the establishing of the early Church. Modern day prophets claim to have new revelation from God and this denies that the Scripture are enough. I believe that Peter taught us that the Scriptures are mor to be believed than even our eyes or our experience.
2Pe 1:18 And we heard this voice being borne from Heaven, being with Him in the holy mountain.
2Pe 1:19 We also have a more sure Word of prophecy, to which you do well to take heed, as to a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawns and the Daystar arises in your hearts,
2Pe 1:20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of the Scripture came into being of its own private interpretation.
2Pe 1:21 For prophecy was not borne at any time by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke being borne along by the Holy Spirit.

Also God himself tells us that He has magnified His word even above His name.
Psa 138:2 I will worship toward Your holy temple, and praise Your name for Your loving-kindness and for Your truth's sake; for You have magnified Your Word above all Your name.

__________________

One of the points made in the cessationist perspective, is that the book of James is proof by showing the proper way to pray for healing.

James: 5. 14. Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: 15. And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.

If we as the Church as a whole would only pray this prayer in faith as the verse described, life would be a freedom from sickness.

If the gifts have gone God did not take them:

Romans: 11. 29. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. 30. For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 31. Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 32. For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. 33. O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! 34. For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counseller? 35. Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? 36. For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

If the gifts were only for Apostles why does Paul go to the trouble to correctly teach their application?

How clear can this passage be?

1 Corinthians: 12. 4. Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5. And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. 6. And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. 7. But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. 8. For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; 9. To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; 10. To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: 11. But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will. 12. For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. 13. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. -

Un belief has quenched the gifts and a lack of faith.
In this reality the gifts have ceased through a lack of faith but no where does the Bible teaches they expired.
Why would they?
If we can decide what has been taken from God's Word ,and we can decide what is no longer for us to use,we are in a contradiction with God.
Do men Preach ,Teach ,Evangelize today ?

These are gifts given to men as Ephesians mentioned, if the Spirtual gifts are for a sign why would God remove them?

 

[now faith]

For my personal belief in the gifts,I do not deny their existence.
We see great outpouring of miracles in places that have never heard the Gospel.

I don't believe it should cause contention between Believers.
I believe Paul laid the foundation of truth when it comes to gifts,they are not for all ,they are not to confuse new people who walk in the Church.

If you move forward to Paul's conclusion he states forbid not to speak in tongues. Why?
Ask this question all the people at Pentacost and when the Gentiles were poured out the Holy Ghost,how could the gifts die out ?
Those who received the Holy Ghost were not Apostles.

Doesn't the same Spirit dwell in us as it did then?

Why would we assume God could not manifest his will through us today?
God is the Potter who shapes the clay, and with God all things are possible to those who believe.

What is worse than denial of the gifts is fake misuse of them,I believe it is blasphemy, I would rather a Brother not believe than to commit blasphemy to the Holy Ghost

 

[98cwitr]

Paul does clarify that without an interpreter, speaking in tongues is pointless.

Agreed that those that misuse and fake gifts of the Spirit for their own gain have committed an unpardonable sin.

 

[Goodbook]

If tongues are to be used in church I agree there must be someone to interpret.
Its very annoying to hear someone speak in an unknown tongue and not able to understand what is being said. Especially if it goes on for a long time.

 

[Goodbook]

I think Paul also said tongues are as a sign for the unbelievers. So they can be used more in an evangelist setting, rather than within church, which will be mostly all believers anyway.

 

[Goodbook]

Anyway can we please stick to the topic.

Difference between southern and other baptists. If you are not baptist yourself, please just remember to stick to the topic than argue other things.

As far as I know the baptist church I go to does not have a policy to forbid tongues..it is only bible baptists that I heard it was not even to be talked about. I thought that was strange but I have to respect their reasons.

It is true however that maybe a lot of baptists arent aware of this as its so prominent in other types of churches. But other types of churches can have a reputation for chaos and disorder with the tongues etc. however, it cant be said baptist churches are extremely rigid in their services like say an anglican church which is a lot of repeat after me, stand up sit down kindof thing that I think can remove the move of the holy spirit.

 

[Albion]

I'm still confused. If each church is autonomous, doesn't that mean no other church can tell it what to believe or do. SBC has no power. It's purely funding. Otherwise, a church could believe in Flying Spaghetti Monster, couldn't it? I'm just trying to wrap my head around autonomous church theory. At what point is an autonomous church required to uphold any values of a group it belongs to?

The congregation is autonomous, but it also is admitted to membership in the conference on the basis of accepting certain principles. Although the congregation remains autonomous, it could always be expelled from the conference (or federation or communion, etc. depending on which denomination we're speaking of) if it has strayed from the beliefs and practices that unite the member congregations.

 

[mikedsjr]

The congregation is autonomous, but it also is admitted to membership in the conference on the basis of accepting certain principles. Although the congregation remains autonomous, it could always be expelled from the conference (or federation or communion, etc. depending on which denomination we're speaking of) if it has strayed from the beliefs and practices that unite the member congregations.

Thanks. I wasn't sure how that worked.

 

[havevisions]

Our (previous) pastor always used 1 Tim 3:2 to state that deacons should be men.
I'm not sure about our present pastor, but we operate the same basic way
My SS teacher is a woman we've had for years, and we all love her.

 

[classicalhero]

I think Paul also said tongues are as a sign for the unbelievers. So they can be used more in an evangelist setting, rather than within church, which will be mostly all believers anyway.

The gift is that you would be speaking in English and if you were talking to a Chinese Person they would hear what you were saying in Chinese an d you could converse that way. The whole point of the gift of tongues was to spread the Gospel, but Paul says that when that which is perfect is come, we believe he was refering to completion of the Bible then some gifts were finished because they weren't needed any more.

 

[Goodbook]

Oh ok but some people havent read the Bible. Not everyone who becomes a christian has actually read the Bible yet.
Some of us didnt even go to church when we were growing up.

 

[Goodbook]

Also the Bible is still being translated into other languages.

 

[now faith]

Anyway can we please stick to the topic.

Difference between southern and other baptists. If you are not baptist yourself, please just remember to stick to the topic than argue other things.

As far as I know the baptist church I go to does not have a policy to forbid tongues..it is only bible baptists that I heard it was not even to be talked about. I thought that was strange but I have to respect their reasons.

It is true however that maybe a lot of baptists arent aware of this as its so prominent in other types of churches. But other types of churches can have a reputation for chaos and disorder with the tongues etc. however, it cant be said baptist churches are extremely rigid in their services like say an anglican church which is a lot of repeat after me, stand up sit down kindof thing that I think can remove the move of the holy spirit.

I understand the idea that other Churches have this reputation for Kaos and disorder
Simply put just because a Church is considered full Gospel,does not mean they are rolling in the aisles or barking like dogs.
When I use the term full Gospel it could apply to a body of believers that do not belive anything written in God's Word has changed due to some unclear reason.

Baptist are diverse in what they teach,I am a Freewill Will Baptist that holds Charismatic / Word of Faith teaching as a foundation for my assessment of God's Word.
Here is the main thing : What does the Bible say?

I personally disagree with some Baptist teaching as well as Word of Faith.

Example: some Baptist take the verse ,When that which is perfect has come to mean the completed Bible I do not simply because of the context as you go forward would make that thought illogical.
Some Word of Faith believe Christ went to Hell and suffered ,I do not The Bible does not say that and it is illogical because Christ bore our sin but was sinless himself.

Some Independent fundamental Baptist promote death to Homosexuals.
Some independent fundamental Baptist promote God's love and salvation for the lost rather than death.

Lol Some Pennacostal people play with rattlesnakes and drink poison, and some get killed trying that.

If you go to a Baptist Church that has a governing body or a conference then there is accountability to the Church conciliat.

In other words there is a distinct doctrine they are to abide by in teaching.
As well your tithes and offerings are distributed as the denomination decides rather than the local Church.

There are great Baptist Churches I would and still visit ,and there are ones I would run from.
Same go's for Charismatic Churches.
I once worked in a Church where they hugged you many times women, men were a bit to loving if you get what I'm saying.

Each local Church will have its own standards even if they belong to a Congressional body,some will be strict on doctrinal teaching and some will not.

The main thing is to study God's Word, to make sure what they teach is in line with it.
Then your Church Family how you are treated and is it misery or a joy to go.

For myself I go to a nondenominational Christian Church,it is a good fit for my beliefs,they teach from the King James ,but do not condemn others for what they want to use.
They believe fellowship is important ,so we have social gatherings that we praise with song and music on grounds a couple of times a year and monthly dinners on Wednesday.
No matter ,we are commanded to not forsake the assembling of ourselves and it's all about giving God the Glory.

 

[Goodbook]

Well just in talking about baptist churches, I go to my local one.
It was the first one God led me to.

I have been to other ones and theres some i wouldnt go to, as some do not have sound doctrine.
There arent many non denom churches in my area. I actually think I would fit better in one like that as there are some minor issues with baptist thinking that I find not as true to the Word as it could be.
But I dont choose to be dissenting for now.

Eg. I know the gifts can operate and just because theres not much manifestation of it going on in a baptist sunday service doesnt mean they arent real, or people dont have them. We arent to puff ourselves up over gifts anyway. The Lord give us gifts and we are to use them, but not abuse them.

My baptist church does not teach AGAINST gifts. But i never heard of that till one of those bible baptists told me. When i asked for prayer and to recieve the holy spirit, this was in a baptist church, they told me about tongues. I already had tongues given from above but when they prayed i recieved undertsanding of scripture in addition. Prior to that i found it really hard to understand the Bible.

 

[Goodbook]

As for wof. I was recommended to go to a wof based church at first but soon found their doctrine something not quite right. For a brand new christian to be kinda forced to pay tithes each week as they were teaching was not good.

So I prayed as to what church God wanted me in and it turned out to be baptist.

 

[now faith]

As for wof. I was recommended to go to a wof based church at first but soon found their doctrine something not quite right. For a brand new christian to be kinda forced to pay tithes each week as they were teaching was not good.

So I prayed as to what church God wanted me in and it turned out to be baptist.

I can agree with the WOF local Church in some places being not quite right.
I have a Church in my area that has the seminary background of WOF in their leadership,but the congregation is not aware.

The Church I attend is anti WOF stating that we are hyper faith people, yet the Sermons are on topics about Faith and healing.
A lot of people are blessed by God in our Church ,through the years many prayers for healing have been answered.

Like many Churches our leadership is clear on humility toward money,and our pastors live a humble lifestyle.
At our last outing we had a mortgage burning event in celebration of becoming debt free.

So in my opinion you can belong to a Denomination, but attend a nondenominational Christian Church.

For me I still attend Baptist events as well,Bless God for the joy of friendship.

What ever the name of the Church, what counts is if God's Word is being taught.

There will always be some strife over religon or the events in a group,Paul rebuked Peter but it did not change their belief in Christ.

God bless your Church and your being there.

 

[98cwitr]

I think the whole promotion of "prosperity gospel" has given the WOF a bad wrap, but at this point it seems to be a part of their very doctrine as a denomination...I hope I am wrong.