NorrinRadd
Xian, Biblicist, Fideist, Pneumatic, Antinomian
- Sep 2, 2007
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... I'M GOING TO GO PUK!
Oh yeah? Well I'm going to go Oberon!
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... I'M GOING TO GO PUK!
Rightly divide the word, the cross happened.
I've already done that years ago. It was a journey and I've come to know what the truth is. You may not agree. It doesn't matter. We walk according to the light with have.Pray about this brother.
Ask the Lord to show you where in scripture it says that we cannot lose our salvation.
Also you can ask Him to show you where it says that we can lose our salvation.
God will surely answer the man who seeks to know His will.
so hot and cool didn't come to your mind? I think you need to ask Jesus if he needs one to check out one's love. Yours in christ kenNeed a bucket?
I think that is a great point.There are so many warnings in the new testament about wolves among the flock. How could we have wolves amongst us and many of us becoming decieved if they didn't seem holy?
I think it's totally possible.
John 6:35 Jesus said to them, I am the bread of life. The one who comes to me will never go hungry, and the one who believes in me will never be thirsty. 6:36 But I told you that you have seen me and still do not believe. 6:37 Everyone whom the Father gives me will come to me, and the one who comes to me I will never send away. 6:38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my own will but the will of the one who sent me. 6:39 Now this is the will of the one who sent me that I should not lose one person of every one he has given me, but raise them all up at the last day. 6:40 For this is the will of my Father for everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him to have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
The warnings are to churches, not individuals, to wake up the institutions to reality, to deal with the problems in the organisation, not threatening those who are in Christ.
Can a believer forfeit salvation?
For the record
1. I do not believe that a Christian can lose their salvation like they can lose their car keys. Losing something is an involuntary act, an accident.
2. Nor do I believe that a Christian can "sin away" their salvation. Christ atoned for all sins once and for all.But I do believe
A persons free will to choose their eternal fate remains in tact even after they become believersIOW, God does not take away our right to choose our eventual destiny when we become believers. We do not become robots, cyborgs the instant we are saved. A Christian has every God-given right to choose to no longer believe, if they so wish.
Interesting example:
One of the best examples of this is Charles Templeton (1915-2001), a Canadian and colleague of Billy Graham in the 1940s, one of the most promising evangelists of the early postwar period and co-creator and initial leading voice of Youth With A Mission. Templeton became a believer in 1936 after experiencing a crisis of faith in a revival meeting, followed by a meteoric rise to become one of the worlds most gifted preachers, whose oratorical skills, some said, surpassed that of his partner Billy Grahams. In 1948 he attended Princeton Theological Seminary and afterward began to question his faith. By 1957 his growing skepticism led him to forfeit/deny/abandon faith in Christ and he became an avowed and lifelong agnostic until his death in 2001. Templeton and Graham remained lifelong friends. In 1982 he wrote, There is no feigning in [Graham]: he believes what he believes with an invincible innocence. He is the only mass evangelist I would trust."But by the end of his life, his admiration for Graham had waned. In 1995, Templeton published A Farewell to God: My Reasons for Rejecting the Christian Faith which set forth his arguments for agnosticism, while also depicting Graham as a fraud who didn't believe in his own crusades. In the latter part of the book, Templeton includes several quotes that have been described as "devastating" to Graham, setting up the case that the latter was simply caught up in good way to make a living. (Wikipedia profile and photo of Templeton HERE)Now, was Templeton saved, OSAS? Will I see him in heaven? His life until the early 1950s gives every evidence that he was once a believer. He gave stirring testimony to his conversion, preached to hundreds of thousands, brought many to Christ, created YWAM (which to this day is one of the leading evangelistic ministries to youth in the world), wrote books and articles extolling Christ, had his own religious television show on CBS, was endorsed as the leading Canadian voice for Christ by the United Churches of Canada, etc., etc. but later in his life, from 1957 until his death, was the leading agnostic voice in his country.
To say that Templeton really never was a Christian is question how any of us can "know" we are Christian? All the evidential fruit was there in Templetons life and ministry from his conversion through the mid-1950s. He believed he was a Christian? If he really wasnt, how can I possibly know for sure that I really am a Christian? Where goes my "security"? How can you know for sure you are really a Christian? How can you know your pastor or your favorite celebrity televangelist is really saved? How can I know for sure you are really a Christian?
It gets complicated, doesn't it?
For me it is simple. Charles Templeton willfully forfeited his salvation, choosing to ignore the dictates of his spirit to embrace the questions in his mind. He did not lose his salvation, or sin away his salvation but, because God never took away his freewill, Templeton simply and willfully abandoned his faith in Christ and became reprobate concerning the faith. He rejected Christ and His gift after having enjoyed it for more than 20 years.
Hard to imagine a Christian turning their back on Christ, but instances are there in scripture (Judas, Demas, Alexander, Hymeneaus, Simon Magus, Diotrophes, Philetus) and in contemporary life.
In short, you dont have to go to heaven if you dont want to. God did not drag Charles Templeton kicking and screaming through the pearly gates, OSAS style.
~Jim
If your absence doesnt make a difference, your presence wont either.
I don't know that God would do that, but I do think that He would relentlessly pursue and swoon you to come back. I don't think you can ever go from believing to "not believing"....I do however think that you can change what you put your belief into. As for salvation and heaven, I don't know.