Can a believer forfeit salvation?

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Faulty

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Therefore ultimately having "sinned" away your salvation?

I just don't buy that you can be saved and continue in sin - Jesus NEVER said to any of the people he healed or transformed "go and sin some more" but quite the contrary Jesus said "go and sin NO MORE" what makes everybody think that it is okay to remain in sin? I just don't understand?

Well then I need to know where that point is. I can find definitive steps in knowing how to be saved but I don't know of any definitive steps to becoming unsaved.

Paul and other wrote so much about obtaining salvation, couldn't just one of them add a sentence or two about if you sin "this much" you will cross "that line" and if you do be sure you're buried with plenty of SPF lotion.

I've seen the verses many use to uphold this belief but really its just lazy interpretation because it all seems to boil down to someone just needing to sin "enough". What is "enough"?
 
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JimB

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Jim,

Can you for my benefit, describe your views on the sovreignty of God?

Sure. God is sovereign over His creation (including sovereign over time). He therefore foreknew and preordained all that has been or will be. When He created mankind, the crown of His creation, He endowed us with freewill, the ability to choose our destiny. If we did not believe this why then would we ever call people to salvation?

Time was the first thing that God created—the Bible begins with time: “In the beginning …” When God, at the beginning of time, “before the foundations of the world” (a phrase which occurs 10 times in the NKJV New Testament), predestined everything, before He ever created Adam, He knew the decisions we would make and foreordained it to be so. The choice was ours, a right given to us by God, but God foreknew our decision and predestined it to be as it is. Thus God remains sovereign yet allows us freewill.

And I do not believe that God ever takes away our freewill, even after we are saved. We can choose Christ or we can reject/deny/renounce Him at any time we want. We see it happening all the time (e.g. Charles Templeton and Bart Ehrman, both of whom abandoned their faith at Pricneton Theological Seminary). It is too cavalier to say they must never have been saved since they gave public evidence (fruit) of their faith at some point in their life.

~Jim

If God made you rich, would he gain a fortune or lose a man.
 
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GrapeGirl

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not arguing your point or any other point yet on this thread but if you think that you can go from

un-belief to belief then why don't you think that you can go from belief to un-belief

just curious?


In worldly things I think that is absolutely possible. I knew what I wanted to say, but it didn't come out right. Here is what I wanted to say:

I think you can choose to not "believe" in Christ....but you will always know the truth. I don't think it's something you can just do away with once you have it. But I certainly do think that you can run from it. Is that better?
 
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JimB

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In worldly things I think that is absolutely possible. I knew what I wanted to say, but it didn't come out right. Here is what I wanted to say:

I think you can choose to not "believe" in Christ....but you will always know the truth. I don't think it's something you can just do away with once you have it. But I certainly do think that you can run from it. Is that better?

Aha! I get it.

Still, none of us, no matter on which side of the cross we are, can ever get away from the Great Hound of Heaven, the Holy Spirit. It is the Spirit’s function in the world to draw all men to Christ. As you know, I believe every person is on a journey to God but like any destination, once we arrive we are just as free to leave.

~Jim

If God made you rich, would he gain a fortune or lose a man.
 
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dmhforJesus

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Well then I need to know where that point is. I can find definitive steps in knowing how to be saved but I don't know of any definitive steps to becoming unsaved.

Paul and other wrote so much about obtaining salvation, couldn't just one of them add a sentence or two about if you sin "this much" you will cross "that line" and if you do be sure you're buried with plenty of SPF lotion.

I've seen the verses many use to uphold this belief but really its just lazy interpretation because it all seems to boil down to someone just needing to sin "enough". What is "enough"?

Ahhhh - pinetrees partner in crime has arrived on the scene - glad its time for me to go to lunch!! You two can debate this with someone else today - I am standing firmly on my joy and no man, woman or faulty pinetree ;) shall take it away !!! Just kidding guys - I enjoy debating with you but I am off to lunch and I have had 4 sleepless nights in a row so my brain is just too tired to debate today. I will be back on in awhile to see who ya'll chose to disect :D

God Bless,
Nita


ps share the verses you know so I will have more ammunition :wave:
 
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GrapeGirl

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Aha! I get it.

Still, none of us, no matter on which side of the cross we are, can ever get away from the Great Hound of Heaven, the Holy Spirit. It is the Spirit’s function in the world to draw all men to Christ. As you know, I believe every person is on a journey to God but like any destination, once we arrive we are just as free to leave.

~Jim


If God made you rich, would he gain a fortune or lose a man.



Yeah that's it. Sorry. I haven't had coffee all day. My mind isn't working. We have no creamer, and unfortunately the house cleaning is keeping me tied here!!!! I shall escape soon though.
 
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BenAdam

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Sure. God is sovereign over His creation (including sovereign over time). He therefore foreknew and preordained all that has been or will be. When He created mankind, the crown of His creation, He endowed us with freewill, the ability to choose our destiny. If we did not believe this why then would we ever call people to salvation?

Time was the first thing that God created—the Bible begins with time: “In the beginning …” When God, at the beginning of time, “before the foundations of the world” (a phrase which occurs 10 times in the NKJV New Testament), predestined everything, before He ever created Adam, He knew the decisions we would make and foreordained it to be so. The choice was ours, a right given to us by God, but God foreknew our decision and predestined it to be as it is. Thus God remains sovereign yet allows us freewill.

And I do not believe that God ever takes away our freewill, even after we are saved. We can choose Christ or we can reject/deny/renounce Him at any time we want. We see it happening all the time (e.g. Charles Templeton and Bart Ehrman, both of whom abandoned their faith at Pricneton Theological Seminary). It is too cavalier to say they must never have been saved since they gave public evidence (fruit) of their faith at some point in their life.

~Jim


If God made you rich, would he gain a fortune or lose a man.

So you believe in a more declarative or judicial sovreignty than a heavy handed irresistable one.

Allow me to advocate for a moment, some people would declare the names you mention as never having been saved. If that is true, would it be possible then to appear saved and not be?
 
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JimB

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You know Jim, as an aside it always amazes me that someone critical/hostile to religion can be made the Chair of the Religion department at a notable university such as Bart Ehrman was, yet in no other field would that be tolerated.

I know. But I am praying for Dr. Ehrman. He was mislead, I think, to abandon his faith for an intellectual approach to Christianity. That’s the danger super-intelligent people have—God gives them smarts and they deify it. But I pray that someday he will return to the faith. Unfortunately, Templeton never did.

According to the Wikipedia article, his wife does not share his unbelief and still attends church with his children.

~Jim

If God made you rich, would he gain a fortune or lose a man.
 
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BenAdam

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I know. But I am praying for Dr. Ehrman. He was mislead, I think, to abandon his faith for an intellectual approach to Christianity. That’s the danger super-intelligent people have—God gives them smarts and they deify it. But I pray that someday he will return to the faity\h. Unfortunately, Templeton never did.

According to the Wikipedia article, his wife does not share his unbelief and still attends church with his children.

~Jim

If God made you rich, would he gain a fortune or lose a man.

Maybe his return could do much to strengthen others with the same questions.
 
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JimB

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*****

would it be possible then to appear saved and not be?

I suppose. But Jesus did say, “A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit” (Matt. 7.18).

~Jim
If God made you rich, would he gain a fortune or lose a man.

 
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E

enoch son

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Can a believer forfeit salvation?

For the record …
1. I do not believe that a Christian can “lose” their salvation like they can lose their car keys. Losing something is an involuntary act, an accident.
2. Nor do I believe that a Christian can "sin away" their salvation. Christ atoned for all sins once and for all.
But I do believe …

A person’s free will to choose their eternal fate remains in tact even after they become believers—IOW, God does not take away our right to choose our eventual destiny when we become believers. We do not become robots, cyborgs the instant we are saved. A Christian has every God-given right to choose to no longer believe, if they so wish.


Interesting example:
One of the best examples of this is Charles Templeton (1915-2001), a Canadian and colleague of Billy Graham in the 1940s, one of the most promising evangelists of the early postwar period and co-creator and initial leading voice of Youth With A Mission. Templeton became a believer in 1936 after experiencing a crisis of faith in a revival meeting, followed by a meteoric rise to become one of the world’s most gifted preachers, whose oratorical skills, some said, surpassed that of his partner Billy Graham’s. In 1948 he attended Princeton Theological Seminary and afterward began to question his faith. By 1957 his growing skepticism led him to forfeit/deny/abandon faith in Christ and he became an avowed and lifelong “agnostic” until his death in 2001. Templeton and Graham remained lifelong friends. In 1982 he wrote, “There is no feigning in [Graham]: he believes what he believes with an invincible innocence. He is the only mass evangelist I would trust."But by the end of his life, his admiration for Graham had waned. In 1995, Templeton published A Farewell to God: My Reasons for Rejecting the Christian Faith which set forth his arguments for agnosticism, while also depicting Graham as a fraud who didn't believe in his own crusades. In the latter part of the book, Templeton includes several quotes that have been described as "devastating" to Graham, setting up the case that the latter was simply caught up in good way to make a living. (Wikipedia profile and photo of Templeton HERE)
Now, was Templeton saved, OSAS? Will I see him in heaven? His life until the early 1950s gives every evidence that he was once a believer. He gave stirring testimony to his conversion, preached to hundreds of thousands, brought many to Christ, created YWAM (which to this day is one of the leading evangelistic ministries to youth in the world), wrote books and articles extolling Christ, had his own religious television show on CBS, was endorsed as the leading Canadian voice for Christ by the United Churches of Canada, etc., etc. but later in his life, from 1957 until his death, was the leading agnostic voice in his country.

To say that Templeton really never was a Christian is question how any of us can "know" we are Christian? All the evidential “fruit” was there in Templeton’s life and ministry from his conversion through the mid-1950s. He believed he was a Christian? If he really wasn’t, how can I possibly know for sure that I really am a Christian? Where goes my "security"? How can you know for sure you are really a Christian? How can you know your pastor or your favorite celebrity televangelist is really saved? How can I know for sure you are really a Christian?

It gets complicated, doesn't it?

For me it is simple. Charles Templeton willfully forfeited his salvation, choosing to ignore the dictates of his spirit to embrace the questions in his mind. He did not “lose” his salvation, or “sin away” his salvation but, because God never took away his freewill, Templeton simply and willfully abandoned his faith in Christ and became reprobate concerning the faith. He rejected Christ and His gift after having enjoyed it for more than 20 years.

Hard to imagine a Christian turning their back on Christ, but instances are there in scripture (Judas, Demas, Alexander, Hymeneaus, Simon Magus, Diotrophes, Philetus) and in contemporary life.

In short, you don’t have to go to heaven if you don’t want to. God did not drag Charles Templeton kicking and screaming through the pearly gates, OSAS style.

~Jim




If your absence doesn’t make a difference, your presence won’t either.
I thank God he didn't ask me to save me He just did it when His time was right. He's in control and has alway's been in control. Man's to dumb- "God's dumbest thought is smarter then the wisest man".
 
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BenAdam

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I suppose. But Jesus did say, “A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit” (Matt. 7.18).

~Jim

If God made you rich, would he gain a fortune or lose a man.

By appear saved I mean have all the "trappings" or outward appearances.
 
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dmhforJesus

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The bible repeatedly makes statements warning believers of the dangers that can lead to falling away... I tend to assume then that the bible is not just being useless and redundant, and it is actually possible to fall away.

:amen:
 
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JimB

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By appear saved I mean have all the "trappings" or outward appearances.

Sure, people can go through the motions of religion—remember Marjoe Gortner? And there are gullible Christians who can be told anything and will believe anything, and anyone who has a good shtick— people with “itchy ears” I believe the Bible calls them (these are also the people who call those who can spot a particularly entertaining fraud, “heresy hunters.”) But Jesus was talking about real fruit, not the kind the fig tree Jesus cursed when it presented when it sprouted its deceptive leaves.

~Jim

If God made you rich, would he gain a fortune or lose a man.
 
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EdMummert

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Being saved is really the relationship we have with Jesus.
John 1:12 "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:
13 Who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."
 
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