Boston Marathon Bomber sentenced to death

TheyShallExpel

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well I would not use the argument about "we have salvation due to the death penalty"
that would be like giving Judas credit for our salvation too.....
just.... lets not go their

your view of Romans 13 is accurate, and historically the Catholic Church has used that verse to support the State and the States obligation to use force to protect its citizens
Catholics, please remember that for centuries the Church has supported the death penalty
the argument now is not over "does the state have the right to execute prisoners" for the state clearly has such a right
the argument is "are such harsh measures needed any longer?"

I agree that they are not needed, atleast not in modern Western Nations
but we should try to be respectful to those who do not agree with us

It is somewhat puerile to say that we do not need capital punishment in a modern western society without at least attempting to explain yourself. Also, liberally respecting those that do not hold our world view is condescending at best when we do not have a legitimate, logical and dare I say biblical reason to oppose their view. Respect really is earned. Do you respect pedophiles for thinking that children are there for their own gratification? That is there view. No, you certainly do not.
Capital punishment is biblical and western liberal societies oppose it out of pure narcissism. We have perverted biblical truth for our own "feelings" changing the order of our reason for believing.
We are to understand the "facts" in the bible, then we are to base our "faith" on those facts and THEN our "feelings" are to follow. BUT - most of us have a feeling, then base our faith on it and then if we are somewhat put out or motivated; base it on the bible. Absolute eisegesis.
 
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RDKirk

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No capital punishment for Cain. Capital punishment for the murderer was commanded by God immediately after the Flood in His instructions to Noah:
Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed; for in the image of God made he man. (Genesis 9:6).​


Interesting that you use the KJV for that quote, because in the archaic English of the KJV, "shall" and "will" have very specific intents that differ by gramatical person. Used in the first person, "will" indicates general intent but not absolute intent. If a person wanted to convey an absolute intention, he said "I shall." But in the second and third persons, that was reversed. "He will" is absolute intent, "he shall" is general intent.

If the KJV interpreters had intended to convey an absolute command, they would have said, "Man will." When the KJV said "man shall," that is not conveying an absolute command. That verse actually says that human government will handle enforcement of laws, not God directly.​
 
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TheyShallExpel

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Interesting that you use the KJV for that quote, because in the archaic English of the KJV, "shall" and "will" have very specific intents that differ by gramatical person. Used in the first person, "will" indicates general intent but not absolute intent. If a person wanted to convey an absolute intention, he said "I shall." But in the second and third persons, that was reversed. "He will" is absolute intent, "he shall" is general intent.

If the KJV interpreters had intended to convey an absolute command, they would have said, "Man will." When the KJV said "man shall," that is not conveying an absolute command. That verse actually says that human government will handle enforcement of laws, not God directly.​

Blah, Blah, Blah... somewhat semantic. So I went to google because I am not as smart as you and YLT renders - whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man is his blood shed: for in the image of God hath He made man. and WEB renders - Whoever sheds man's blood, his blood will be shed by man, for God made man in his own image. So, which ENGLISH translation is right? as i said, semantics as it is a command.

So, forget the English as it is pointless to argue one English translation to another - instead, what has the church already said...

Sorry I cheated and went to google again...

Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary
9:4-7 The main reason of forbidding the eating of blood, doubtless was because the shedding of blood in sacrifices was to keep the worshippers in mind of the great atonement; yet it seems intended also to check cruelty, lest men, being used to shed and feed upon the blood of animals, should grow unfeeling to them, and be less shocked at the idea of shedding human blood. Man must not take away his own life. Our lives are God's, and we must only give them up when he pleases. If we in any way hasten our own death, we are accountable to God for it. When God requires the life of a man from him that took it away unjustly, the murderer cannot render that, and therefore must render his own instead. One time or other, in this world or in the next, God will discover murders, and punish those murders which are beyond man's power to punish. But there are those who are ministers of God to protect the innocent, by being a terror to evil-doers, and they must not bear the sword in vain, Ro 13:4. Wilful murder ought always to be punished with death. To this law there is a reason added. Such remains of God's image are still upon fallen man, that he who unjustly kills a man, defaces the image of God, and does dishonour to him.

Pulpit Commentary
Verse 6. -Whoso sheddeth. Literally, he shedding, i.e. willfully and unwarrantably; and not simply accidentally, for which kind of manslaughter the law afterwards provided (videNumbers 35:11); or judicially, for that is commanded by the present statute.Man's blood. Literally, blood of the man, human blood.By man. Not openly and directly by God, but by man himself, acting of course as God's instrument and agent - an instruction which involved the setting up of the magisterial office, by whom the sword might be borne ("Hic igitur fens est, ex quo manat totum jus civile etjus gentium." - Luther. Cf.Numbers 35:29-31;Romans 13:4), and equally laid a basis for the law of the goel subsequently established in Israel (Deuteronomy 19:6;Joshua 20:3). The Chaldee paraphrases, "with witnesses by sentence of the judges." The LXX. substitutes for "by man"ἀντὶ τοῦ αἵματοςαὐτοῦ ( an interpretation followed by Professor Lewis, who quotes Jona ben Gannach in its support,Shall. Not merely a permission legalizing, but an imperative command enjoining, capital punishment, the reason for which follows.For in the image of God made he man.To apply this to the magistracy (Bush, Murphy, Keil), who are sometimes in Scripture styled Elohim (Psalm 82:6), and the ministers of God (Romans 13:4), and who may be said to have been made in the Divine image in the sense of being endowed with the capacity of ruling and judging, seems forced and unnatural; the clause obviously assigns the original dignity of man (cf.Genesis 1:28) as the reason why the murderer cannot be suffered to escape (Calvin, Poole, Alford, 'Speaker's Commentary,' Candlish, Lange)

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed,.... That is, he that is guilty of wilful murder shall surely be put to death by the order of the civil magistrate; so the Targum of Jonathan,"by witnesses the judges shall condemn him to death,''that is, the fact being clearly proved by witnesses, the judges shall condemn"him to death,''that is, the fact being clearly proved by witnesses, the judges shall pass the sentence of death upon him, and execute it; for this is but the law of retaliation, a just and equitable one, blood for blood, or life for life; though it seems to be the first law of this kind that empowered the civil magistrate to take away life; God, as it is thought, reserving the right and power to himself before, and which, for some reasons, he thought fit not to make use of in the case of Cain, whom he only banished, and suffered not others to take away his life, but now enacts a law, requiring judges to punish murder with death: and which, according to this law, ought never to go unpunished, or have a lesser punishment inflicted for it: the reason follows:
for in the image of God made he man; which, though sadly defaced and obliterated by sin, yet there are such remains of it, as render him more especially the object of the care and providence of God, and give him a superiority to other creatures; and particularly this image, among others, consists in immortality, which the taking away of his life may seem to contradict; however, it is what no man has a right to do.

Seems the Church over the centuries agree on this?
 
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StephanieSomer

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Rubbish. The Mosaic Law was only operative for Israel. Romans 13 says the king can use the sword, but also allows him not to use it. There is no such "explicit command of God" upon a pagan king.

The death penalty wasn't initiated by the Mosaic Law. It IS operative for the entire race.
 
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RDKirk

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The death penalty wasn't initiated by the Mosaic Law. It IS operative for the entire race.

Again, there is no command upon any pagan king that he must use the death penalty with no discretion. What you have is a statement from God that He will not administer the death penalty in this life, not a command that it must be administered.
 
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Tallguy88

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The death penalty wasn't initiated by the Mosaic Law. It IS operative for the entire race.
It is not intrinsically evil. It served a legitimate purpose in tge past. It is currentkt unnecessary in modern Western nations. We should strive to end the death penalty in our society. That is what the Catholic Church teaches. Someone posted the relevant sources previously I believe, but I can find them again if you like.
 
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StephanieSomer

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It is not intrinsically evil. It served a legitimate purpose in tge past. It is currentkt unnecessary in modern Western nations. We should strive to end the death penalty in our society. That is what the Catholic Church teaches. Someone posted the relevant sources previously I believe, but I can find them again if you like.


Wow. It surprises me greatly when someone can assert that God's command is "unnecessary", especially when God has never repealed what He said. There is no Scripture anywhere that even implies that He has cancelled his command. But, if some man tells you that God's Word is no longer "necessary" you don't even blink.
 
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StephanieSomer

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I'm unsubscribing to this thread. There's no more reason to post here. I've given you what the Scripture says. Many have chosen to toss it in the garbage. Repeating Scripture yet again is a waste of time here. Scripture takes a back seat over your leaders. I understand that. It's sad. But, it is the truth. Take care.
 
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Tallguy88

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Of course we believe what out leaders tell us. That's what makes us Catholic. We submit to an authoritive institution which helps us interpret scripture correctly and apply it to our modern society. Otherwise, we would be Protestants.
 
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joshuanazar

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Has this thread really become a thread arguing whether the death penalty is biblical or not? I agree with Rhamiel that both the death penalty and mercy is Biblical. I say that it is up for the king or whoever God put in charge of the country to decide whether to give mercy or the death penalty since it is God that put them in charge. When we sit around and argue one part of the bible against another part of it, we show ourselves to be argumentative and spiteful, not really capable of listening because we are to busy forcing our own views down people throats. This is not Christ.
 
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LivingWordUnity

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State sponsored murder can never be condoned...
Catholics are free to disagree with capital punishment. But the Catholic Church would not call this a state sponsored murder. Murder, by definition, is when someone deliberately kills someone who they know is innocent. But this guy is a murderer and as guilty as they come. Also, what is likelihood that he would repent when he has no remorse and believes that he will be rewarded with 70 virgins in heaven for what he did? So it is a state sponsored killing but not a state sponsored murder.
 
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joshuanazar

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Catholics are free to disagree with capital punishment. But the Catholic Church would not call this a state sponsored murder. Murder, by definition, is when someone deliberately kills someone who they know is innocent. But this guy is a murderer and as guilty as they come. Also, what is likelihood that he would repent when he has no remorse and believes that he will be rewarded with 70 virgins in heaven for what he did? So it is a state sponsored killing but not a state sponsored murder.
About the same likelihood that I would have repented when my thinking was full of my own pride and confidence in my abilities, I repented. We cannot underestimate the power of grace.
 
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RDKirk

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Catholics are free to disagree with capital punishment. But the Catholic Church would not call this a state sponsored murder. Murder, by definition, is when someone deliberately kills someone who they know is innocent. But this guy is a murderer and as guilty as they come. Also, what is likelihood that he would repent when he has no remorse and believes that he will be rewarded with 70 virgins in heaven for what he did? So it is a state sponsored killing but not a state sponsored murder.

There is a Catholic saint--whose name I can't recall at the moment--who had been a Roman centurion. He was in charge of executions and had coldly overseen the executions of hundreds of condemned men and women, including dozens, perhaps hundreds of Christians. Nobody could have predicted that at some point he'd see one Christian too many go gladly under his sword and suddenly say, "There is a God these people are dying for."
 
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LivingWordUnity

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About the same likelihood that I would have repented when my thinking was full of my own pride and confidence in my abilities, I repented. We cannot underestimate the power of grace.
There is a Catholic saint--whose name I can't recall at the moment--who had been a Roman centurion. He was in charge of executions and had coldly overseen the executions of hundreds of condemned men and women, including dozens, perhaps hundreds of Christians. Nobody could have predicted that at some point he'd see one Christian too many go gladly under his sword and suddenly say, "There is a God these people are dying for."
But in this case the guy believes that he did a good thing by blowing up those people. He believes that what he did will be rewarded with 72 virgins. How can someone repent of something that they think was a good thing that they did?
 
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joshuanazar

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But in this case the guy believes that he did a good thing by blowing up those people. He believes that what he did will be rewarded with 72 virgins. How can someone repent of something that they think was a good thing that they did?
By coming to know the truth. Paul killed a lot of christians and he thought that he was doing God's will. Then truth met him on the road to Damascus. The majority of people do evil things because they are ignorant of what evil really is. Most people do not consider themselves evil. Now not all muslims believe in the 72 virgin thing. Just like there are different denominations that believe different things in Chrisitanity, there are different sects of Islam that believe different things. Unless he specifically said that he believed he would receive 72 virgins after he died, there is a chance that he doesn't believe in that. Not that will will make any difference when it comes to seeing truth and grace.
 
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Tallguy88

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But in this case the guy believes that he did a good thing by blowing up those people. He believes that what he did will be rewarded with 72 virgins. How can someone repent of something that they think was a good thing that they did?
Grace.
 
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This thread had a small clean up.

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Edit - clarified - It is not against Catholic doctrine to advocate for the death penalty. I was wrong when I wrote that before.
 
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