Born Again question.

[sungaunga]

Not to engage in a fight, but can I have a verse for this. I realize it's dogma for many churches, but I am not aware of its being spelled out explicitly in Scripture. ("All men have sinned, and fallen short...." says something a bit different -- not that we are born at emnity with God, but that we all have fallen short of His expectations for us.)

hey how are ya ^^ sure, there are many angles to come at this. As you mentioned, we have all fallen short of the glory of God. Adam's fall tainted the entire human race with sin. "Through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned" Paul also says, [emphasis added] "Through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men" No one is exempt. No one is born truly innocent. Just look at how infants behave and their proclivity to sinful behaviors. Sin is not learned it is an inbred disposition. [I love infants and kids, don't get me wrong ^^]

Put bluntly, I am not a sinner because I sin, I sin because I was born a sinner. Paul says we're born dead in trespasses and sins. In psalms 51 it reads "Behold I was shaped in iniquity and in sin did my mother conceive me" NIV translates Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me. from the getgo, from conception on, I was shaped in iniquity And Jobs says "Who is born of a woman that he should be righteous?"

I believe that there was a moment in time in that girls life, she realized, through the Gospel that she is a sinner in need of Jesus as Lord and Savior . We from our perspective can only assume when that took place, but God knows when she was born again. And remember, it's being born "Again."

lemme know ^^;

 

[Yarddog]

only God knows when a person is truly born again. Regeneration is not something that is visible. Only in the persons changed actions we can assume but God knows if and when that event took place.

I totally agree. IMHO, to put restrictions on what God chooses to do is a grave mistake.

Nobody comes out of the womb believing in God. The Bible explicitly states that we are all born in enmity with God. At some point in time, that girl was born of the spirit, after being born in the flesh.

The Bible doesn't teach that "every" person is born in enmity with God, though, certainly, it does apply to most. John the Baptist was one that was chosen while in the womb to have God's Holy Spirit and lived a righteous life.

Luke 1:15 for he will be great in the sight of (the) Lord. He will drink neither wine nor strong drink. He will be filled with the holy Spirit even from his mother's womb,
When Mary came to Elizabeth's home John, while in the womb reacted to the presence of Jesus.

41 When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the infant leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth, filled with the holy Spirit,
We must remember that the verses used to show that we are all born in enmity with God are about people born in the time before the Holy Spirit came to the Church and before many people were being filled with God's Spirit. There may have been many, many cases of babies being born already filled with the Spirit of God just as John the Baptist was. We have no way of knowing this.

IMHO, to put restrictions on what God chooses to do is a grave mistake.

 

[Hammster]

So John the Baptist didn't need a Savior?

 

[MrPolo]

Scripture says to be born again is by "water and spirit" (Jn 3:5, Tit 3:5). This is shown by Christ's example of baptism in the Jordan when there is water and the Spirit in the form of a dove. So one asks, how does a baby "believe" like Scripture calls us to? The same question can be asked of someone with no mental faculties to do so.

When there are people who are "unable" to come to Jesus the way most people can, Christ accepts someone's plea on their behalf. Think of the centurian's servant who is healed because of the faith of the centurian (Mt 8:5-13), or the paralytic who was healed and forgiven because of the faith of his friends (Mk 2:3-5). Or the Canaanite woman who interceded for her daughter, healed by Jesus through the faith of the mother (Mt 15:22-28). In infant baptism, the parents supply the faith in proxy, just like in these other examples.

The practice of the early Church verifies this understanding.

"The Church received from the apostles the tradition of giving baptism even to infants. The apostles, to whom were committed the secrets of the divine sacraments, knew there are in everyone innate strains of [original] sin, which must be washed away through water and the Spirit" (Origen, Commentaries on Romans 5:9 (c. A.D. 248)).

"And they shall baptise the little children first. And if they can answer for themselves, let them answer. But if they cannot, let their parents answer or someone from their family." (Hippolytus of Rome, Apostolic Tradition, 21 (c. A.D. 215).

"And both men and women who have been Christ's disciples since infancy, remain pure, and at the age of sixty or seventy years ..." (Justin Martyr, First Apology, 15.6 -- c. AD 150)​

 

[Polycarp1]

So John the Baptist didn't need a Savior?

People jump to that conclusion. But no, God's Holy Spirit is at work in us because He loves us. The Father sent Jesus to atone for us because He loves us -- and that "He" is intentionally vague, referencing either Father, Son, or God the Holy Trinity.

IF the Catholics are right and Mary was conceived and born totally without sin, if John the Baptist was called and chosen while still in Elizabeth's womb, etc., etc., they still need a Savior. It is His grace that saves them, not any merit of their own. And that salvation, that atonement, that grace can work retroactively from a human standpoint, because God is eternal; He is the Master of time, and not its servant. Jesus said, "Before Abraham was, I AM." I am not making claims about Catholic dogma here, but speaking of our common Christian belief in grace freely extended to all.

Too many people see God's judgment as a capital trial, in which Hell is the consequence of being found guilty and executed. The very words used in Scripture and in theology make this imagery suspect at best, and probably totally incorrect. Rather, the wages of sin is death -- death is the natural consequence of sin, in the absence of divine intervention. The Latin word salvatio derives from salvus -- and that means, not "saved" as in plucked from catastrophe, but "healthy, whole." God is like an emergency room doctor attempting to save lives that would otherwise perish, to restore to spiritual health those whose lives have made them chronically ill, to cure addicts whose addiction is to sin.

If there is anything to hagiography, it would be this: some few, He calls from an early age, and equips with sufficient grace, to live lives of sanctity, as examples for the rest of us. While all Christians are saints in the sense of being rerpentant sinners, some few are Saints in the sense of those called apart and specially gifted to help show the way, to point to Christ as the Way by following Him in their own lives. And seeing their examples, and Him as the goal to which they strive, we take heart and resolve to try harder, following their examples and His.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

People jump to that conclusion. But no, God's Holy Spirit is at work in us because He loves us. The Father sent Jesus to atone for us because He loves us -- and that "He" is intentionally vague, referencing either Father, Son, or God the Holy Trinity.

IF the Catholics are right and Mary was conceived and born totally without sin, if John the Baptist was called and chosen while still in Elizabeth's womb, etc., etc., they still need a Savior. It is His grace that saves them, not any merit of their own. And that salvation, that atonement, that grace can work retroactively from a human standpoint, because God is eternal; He is the Master of time, and not its servant. Jesus said, "Before Abraham was, I AM." I am not making claims about Catholic dogma here, but speaking of our common Christian belief in grace freely extended to all.

Too many people see God's judgment as a capital trial, in which Hell is the consequence of being found guilty and executed. The very words used in Scripture and in theology make this imagery suspect at best, and probably totally incorrect. Rather, the wages of sin is death -- death is the natural consequence of sin, in the absence of divine intervention. The Latin word salvatio derives from salvus -- and that means, not "saved" as in plucked from catastrophe, but "healthy, whole." God is like an emergency room doctor attempting to save lives that would otherwise perish, to restore to spiritual health those whose lives have made them chronically ill, to cure addicts whose addiction is to sin.

If there is anything to hagiography, it would be this: some few, He calls from an early age, and equips with sufficient grace, to live lives of sanctity, as examples for the rest of us. While all Christians are saints in the sense of being rerpentant sinners, some few are Saints in the sense of those called apart and specially gifted to help show the way, to point to Christ as the Way by following Him in their own lives. And seeing their examples, and Him as the goal to which they strive, we take heart and resolve to try harder, following their examples and His.

Well said!

Forgive me...

 

[Yarddog]

So John the Baptist didn't need a Savior?

John needed a savior as did all the Spirit filled men and women who lived before him did. Jesus died for Abraham, Moses, David, Joseph, etc.. as well as all those that came after him.

 

[sungaunga]

So John the Baptist didn't need a Savior?

what other conclusion can we come to other than this right? The Bible in no vague terms says that no man is righteous. "No not one" That would include John the baptist, John my neighbor and every John who's ever lived

The Bible doesn't teach that "every" person is born in enmity with God, though, certainly, it does apply to most. John the Baptist was one that was chosen while in the womb to have God's Holy Spirit and lived a righteous life.

John the baptist like all other old testament believers can have the Holy Spirit indwelt them, but not permanently. The permanency of the Holy Spirit was after the Pentecost. John was also a human being and as such he was born with original sin. Being saved doesn't mean you're sinless. Yes God sees us us sinless because of Christ's righteousness but we are nontheless living in this sinful flesh. The Bible says that "We all like sheep have gone astray" "Turned everyone to his own way" All would include John the Baptist.

 

[sungaunga]

IF the Catholics are right and Mary was conceived and born totally without sin, if John the Baptist was called and chosen while still in Elizabeth's womb, etc., etc., they still need a Savior. It is His grace that saves them, not any merit of their own. And that salvation, that atonement, that grace can work retroactively from a human standpoint, because God is eternal; He is the Master of time, and not its servant. Jesus said, "Before Abraham was, I AM." I am not making claims about Catholic dogma here, but speaking of our common Christian belief in grace freely extended to all.

Too many people see God's judgment as a capital trial, in which Hell is the consequence of being found guilty and executed. The very words used in Scripture and in theology make this imagery suspect at best, and probably totally incorrect. Rather, the wages of sin is death -- death is the natural consequence of sin, in the absence of divine intervention. The Latin word salvatio derives from salvus -- and that means, not "saved" as in plucked from catastrophe, but "healthy, whole." God is like an emergency room doctor attempting to save lives that would otherwise perish, to restore to spiritual health those whose lives have made them chronically ill, to cure addicts whose addiction is to sin.

If there is anything to hagiography, it would be this: some few, He calls from an early age, and equips with sufficient grace, to live lives of sanctity, as examples for the rest of us. While all Christians are saints in the sense of being rerpentant sinners, some few are Saints in the sense of those called apart and specially gifted to help show the way, to point to Christ as the Way by following Him in their own lives. And seeing their examples, and Him as the goal to which they strive, we take heart and resolve to try harder, following their examples and His.

although I do not believe that Mary was sinless as she also needed a savior, this thought of yours is very interesting. It would be awesome to see people who are actually sinless. Unfortunately nobody is. Which honest Christian can truly look at themselves and say, wow look ma! I'm sinless. I think Paul was one of the greatest Christians who ever lived. But look at him. Look at Paul, He considered himself the chief of sinners. And I do too. Why? Because I don't know your heart or anyone else heart but mine. And that to me is one practical way to obey the command to think of others as superior to yourselves. I feel as though I am the worst of sinner, knowing all that I know and still sinning against almighty God. oops... sorry for going off track. ^^

I just want to say that nobody is able to keep the law perfectly. I am by no means saying that it is necessary for salvation. I want to make it clear that no one is able to keep the law perfectly because we are sinners. It doesn't matter if you sinned early in life as a child or later in life or once in life or whatever, if you sinned, period, ever in your life, you are a sinner in desperate need of a savior.

 

[sungaunga]

John needed a savior as did all the Spirit filled men and women who lived before him did. Jesus died for Abraham, Moses, David, Joseph, etc.. as well as all those that came after him.

so you're acknowledging John was a sinner. ??

 

[Yarddog]

so you're acknowledging John was a sinner. ??

In the eyes of man, but he was righteous to God.

 

[Yarddog]

John the baptist like all other old testament believers can have the Holy Spirit indwelt them, but not permanently. The permanency of the Holy Spirit was after the Pentecost. John was also a human being and as such he was born with original sin.

Provide scripture which backs up this, apparently fairly new, theology.

Being saved doesn't mean you're sinless. Yes God sees us us sinless because of Christ's righteousness but we are nontheless living in this sinful flesh. The Bible says that "We all like sheep have gone astray" "Turned everyone to his own way" All would include John the Baptist.

What does this have to do with the subject? John still received the Holy Spirit before his birth and scripture doesn't teach that John strayed from his faith.

 

[sungaunga]

In the eyes of man, but he was righteous to God.

what do you exactly mean in the eyes of man? It's either he's a sinner or not. You and I are righteous before God also because of Jesus Christ. But that doesn't deny the fact that we "were dead in sin and trespasses" Jesus says He didn't come to save the righteous, he came for sinners. In other words, he can't do anything for people who think they are righteous. Such were the religious pharisees.

 

[sungaunga]

Provide scripture which backs up this, apparently fairly new, theology.


What does this have to do with the subject? John still received the Holy Spirit before his birth and scripture doesn't teach that John strayed from his faith.

NT Holy Spirit permanently indwelling the believer as a seal from God is not new theology. It's as old as the Bible. And what I am trying to communicate is the fact that John is a sinner in need of a savior just like every single person who lived, is living and will live.

EDIT: im sorry if this is going off on a tangent... is this even what we're debating about? LOL ^^

 

[Yarddog]

NT Holy Spirit permanently indwelling the believer as a seal from God is not new theology. It's as old as the Bible.

If you refer to all the scripture then you also see that your statement, below, is incorrect. No where do we find that the Holy Spirit in dwelling was not permanent.

John the baptist like all other old testament believers can have the Holy Spirit indwelt them, but not permanently. The permanency of the Holy Spirit was after the Pentecost.

And what I am trying to communicate is the fact that John is a sinner in need of a savior just like every single person who lived, is living and will live.

If John sinned on occasion, does that make him a sinner? Is a righteous man also a sinner?

EDIT: im sorry if this is going off on a tangent... is this even what we're debating about? LOL ^^

It all has to do with the OP. The girl who lived her whole life in a walk with God through faith, could have received the Holy Spirit in the womb or at her infant baptism and was dead to sin but alive in the Spirit of God.

 

[Yarddog]

what do you exactly mean in the eyes of man?

The Pharisees claimed that Jesus was a sinner. I'm sure that you would agree that those men were wrong.

It doesn't matter what man thinks. Only God can grant righteousness.

It's either he's a sinner or not. You and I are righteous before God also because of Jesus Christ. But that doesn't deny the fact that we "were dead in sin and trespasses" Jesus says He didn't come to save the righteous, he came for sinners. In other words, he can't do anything for people who think they are righteous. Such were the religious pharisees.

Romans 4:5 But when one does not work, yet believes in the one who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness.
6 So also David declares the blessedness of the person to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
7 "Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven and whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord does not record."
Though I was once a sinner, I am not a sinner now.

 

[Albion]

Not to engage in a fight, but can I have a verse for this. I realize it's dogma for many churches, but I am not aware of its being spelled out explicitly in Scripture. ("All men have sinned, and fallen short...." says something a bit different -- not that we are born at emnity with God, but that we all have fallen short of His expectations for us.)

Yes, but scripture also says that all men are born in sin, meaning either that childbirth is sinful OR that we are born at emnity with God. I don't see any reason to think that the first of these is correct.

 

[brinny]

An infant gets baptised.

This infant grows into a little girl, full of hope, joy and a belief in GOD.

This little girl continues her walk with GOD into adolescence...talking about GOD's love and Jesus to everyone she sees, because of her parents faith and maybe a catechism class at church, then a teenager emerges.

This teenager continues to love GOD with all her heart, and learns that Jesus said to love other's with all her heart no matter what, and despite what the secular world tells her she should become....she grows into a young woman. She loves church and loves that her parents taught her scripture.

This young woman walks with the LORD with joy and doubt and more joy and continues and continues loving GOD, despite her job telling her she can't talk about GOD at work, despite what her peers tell her that GOD doesn't exist, etc. Her daily devotional helps her deal with the world today...her faith grows and grows as she ages many years, continuing to learn from our GOD and His word...into old age.

The old woman dies, who used to be this same young woman...professing Jesus in her heart and mind.


Where is the supposed "born again" experience for her?

I don't see it and reject the entire claim that the bible mandates "born again christians"/a regenerate church membership as being the only way to be the true Church.
There are TONS of Christian denominations that would claim that this little infant baptised would NEVER be able to do this, hence NEVER being a Christian in the first place, and MUST show otherwise to be a Christian as a young adult or at the "age of accountibility".

Thoughts?





PS: do not bother to post that this scenerio is NOT possible because it is possible. Don't read into this what is not there please.

You did ask. I will respond what i believe the truth is. Repentence is uncompromisingly necessary in the eyes of a holy God. Knowing about God and Jesus the Christ and knowing God through Jesus the Christ are two different things. Infant baptism doesn't save anyone.

It is written. It is not us who decides what is required of a holy God. It is God Who decides.

 

[Albion]

Infant baptism doesn't save anyone.

No Baptism saves anyone apart from the rest of his life, not infant baptism and not "believer's baptism," either. What's more, I don't recall that anyone here has argued that it does.

 

[LiturgyInDMinor]

Except for my thoughts being called "garbage" by Hammster, I am enjoying everyone's point of view on this thread.

Thankyou all, even you Hammster.