Born Again question.

[Emmy]

Dear N R B. When Jesus told Nicodemus that he has to be born again, and Nicodemus wondered how that can be, Jesus was surprised that Nicodemus, who did know the Law, did not know what it meant: " to be born again." We all know that humans will be humans. We live in an imperfect world, Temptations of many different kinds surround us day and night. We are on Earth to learn to love as God wants us to love. 1) Love God with all our hearts, with all our souls, and with all our minds. That is straightforward, N R B, God is our Heavenly Father, He made us in His image, and He wants our LOVE freely given, we are HIS. 2) Love our neighbour, all others, friend or not friend, AS we love ourselves. That is not easy, it is our nature to be selfish, and wilfull. Many try to be good, and perhaps some achieve it, but what Jesus meant, and what St.Paul called our inner man, our natures have to change, we have to exchange our old nature for a new nature, we have tobe born again, born to love God as He deserves to, and love our fellow-beings as we love ourselves. Jesus died that we might live, He reconciled us to God, and we have to change into NEW sons and daughters of God, REPENT, be born again to love as God wants us to love. I say this humbly and with love. Greetings from Emmy, your sister in Christ.

 

[1whirlwind]

John 3:2-8 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him. Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? Jesus answered, "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
​

A man, a man child/elect, must "be born of water and of the spirit" or "he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." We must be "born of the flesh" which is being...born of water...the bag of water from our flesh birth. And, "born of the Spirit" which is from God.

The fallen angels were not born of water. They did things their way...not God's way. They will not "enter into the kingdom of God." To those of us born in this flesh life, born of water, if we do not receive His Spirit then we will not "enter into the kingdom of God."

Our souls were with the Father before our flesh birth. Our souls must be born into flesh, pass through this flesh life to be proven worthy of entering into the kingdom of God...or not, and return to the Father. When that is accomplished we have been born again (born from above) of water and Spirit.

John 3:12-13 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but He That came down from heaven, even the Son of man Which is in heaven.
​

To be "born again" in the Greek is....to be born from above!

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

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Born again = Baptism

That is the Apostolic teaching.

Forgive me...

 

[1whirlwind]

*OrthodoxyUSA subscribes*

Born again = Baptism

Forgive me...

Born again = born from above

John 3:12-13 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but He That came down from heaven, even the Son of man Which is in heaven.

 

[Hammster]

*OrthodoxyUSA subscribes*



Born again = Baptism



That is the Apostolic teaching.



Forgive me...

It may be "Apostolic" teaching, but it isn't teachings of the Apostles.

 

[Albion]

An infant gets baptised.

This infant grows into a little girl, full of hope, joy and a belief in GOD.

This little girl continues her walk with GOD into adolescence...talking about GOD's love and Jesus to everyone she sees, because of her parents faith and maybe a catechism class at church, then a teenager emerges.

This teenager continues to love GOD with all her heart, and learns that Jesus said to love other's with all her heart no matter what, and despite what the secular world tells her she should become....she grows into a young woman. She loves church and loves that her parents taught her scripture.

This young woman walks with the LORD with joy and doubt and more joy and continues and continues loving GOD, despite her job telling her she can't talk about GOD at work, despite what her peers tell her that GOD doesn't exist, etc. Her daily devotional helps her deal with the world today...her faith grows and grows as she ages many years, continuing to learn from our GOD and His word...into old age.

The old woman dies, who used to be this same young woman...professing Jesus in her heart and mind.


Where is the supposed "born again" experience for her?

I don't see it and reject the entire claim that the bible mandates "born again christians"/a regenerate church membership as being the only way to be the true Church.
There are TONS of Christian denominations that would claim that this little infant baptised would NEVER be able to do this, hence NEVER being a Christian in the first place, and MUST show otherwise to be a Christian as a young adult or at the "age of accountibility".

Thoughts?

If there are such churches, then they are in error. I particularly discount the part about "church membership" and "true church." Those are considerations, valid or not, which are not directly linked to being "born again."

The issue is an old one. Your scenario is a genuine one that has been lived out in the lives of many, many true believers. And the question has been posed many times by many people. The answer is that we must make a commitment to the Lord at some time or other in our lives.

For those who did not grow up as this little girl did, it probably will come as a conscious moment of realization which can be called "being born again." But for her and others, there is continual growth in the Lord. So long as there is the personal commitment and not simply a "going to church feels good, and being kind to other people is a nice thing to do" there is indeed a "born again" experience. Baptism is part of the story with either kind of person, so I'd hope that it wouldn't become an issue for us in itself.

It's just not always as easy to date as it is with those who didn't know the Lord until being converted as adults--and these are the kind of people to whom Jesus was speaking, so naturally the kind of thinking that people associate with being born again is demonstrated in their lives. It doesn't make the experience of the other kind of people any less meaningful.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

It may be "Apostolic" teaching, but it isn't teachings of the Apostles.

Ummm.... What?

Forgive me...

 

[Polycarp1]

If there are such churches, then they are in error. I particularly discount the part about "church membership" and "true church." Those are considerations, valid or not, which are not directly linked to being "born again."

The issue is an old one. Your scenario is a genuine one that has been lived out in the lives of many, many true believers. And the question has been posed many times by many people. The answer is that we must make a commitment to the Lord at some time or other in our lives.

For those who did not grow up as this little girl did, it probably will come as a conscious moment of realization which can be called "being born again." But for her and others, there is continual growth in the Lord. So long as there is the personal commitment and not simply a "going to church feels good, and being kind to other people is a nice thing to do" there is indeed a "born again" experience. Baptism is part of the story with either kind of person, so I'd hope that it wouldn't become an issue for us in itself.

It's just not always as easy to date as it is with those who didn't know the Lord until being converted as adults--and these are the kind of people to whom Jesus was speaking, so naturally the kind of thinking that people associate with being born again is demonstrated in their lives. It doesn't make the experience of the other kind of people any less meaningful.

I think this is very much on target. As a sacramental believer, I believe that God imparts grace at baptism, that it is not necessarily something a human chooses to do in response to Godf, but something God, through His ministers, does for the human. It begins a life in grace, in which the Holy Spirit acts to sanctify and regenerate the inner man into what God intended him/her to be.

Being "born again" is often confused, quite understandably, with the conversion experience, in which the non-Christian experiences a sudden, dramatic change of life.

For a person like the girl in the OP, who is "headed in the right direction," growing in grace from toddlerhood on, the change is a very minor redirecting of the person, "from 3 degrees north of west to due west", so to speak. For the person who has experienced a conversion experience, as my wife and I did, it's a complete turn-around, from heading southeast to due west in the same analogy. But in both cases it is God the Holy Spirit working with and in the individual to mold and reshape the inner self into what God wishes him/her to be.

 

[Dark_Lite]

Where is the supposed "born again" experience for her?

I don't see it and reject the entire claim that the bible mandates "born again christians"/a regenerate church membership as being the only way to be the true Church.
There are TONS of Christian denominations that would claim that this little infant baptised would NEVER be able to do this, hence NEVER being a Christian in the first place, and MUST show otherwise to be a Christian as a young adult or at the "age of accountibility".

Thoughts?

There is no such thing as a singular "born again" event, unless one is referring to the first time they were "born again." Salvation is a process.

 

[the particular baptist]

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

 

[LiturgyInDMinor]

The Bible says we must be born again. I don't think it says this is an 'experience'. What matters is that the girl/woman in your OP was born again, not how she experienced that.

Sounds to me like she was born again as an infant and continued to experience God's grace (her born again experience) throughout her life.

REPS FOR YOU SISTER!

This is exactly what I'm talking about and this is exactly what 50% of churches in the United States, or elsewhere who knows(give or take) would totally DENY as being valid in the first place.
You're awesome and directly related to my point.
Pick any church in the SBC for instance, they would tell this woman/little girl, or at whatever stage of her life, she must get baptised again(the "correct way"), thusly denying her infant baptism, and thusly denying that she was ever 'born again'. These are facts that cannot be denied because I've seen it happen.
I don't want to turn this into credo vs paedo, but for some churches this is reality.


thankyou for listening.

 

[LiturgyInDMinor]

If there are such churches, then they are in error. I particularly discount the part about "church membership" and "true church." Those are considerations, valid or not, which are not directly linked to being "born again."

Thankyou for your entire response but I must address this briefly....join an SBC church.

 

[Hammster]

REPS FOR YOU SISTER!

This is exactly what I'm talking about and this is exactly what 50% of churches in the United States, or elsewhere who knows(give or take) would totally DENY as being valid in the first place.
You're awesome and directly related to my point.
Pick any church in the SBC for instance, they would tell this woman/little girl, or at whatever stage of her life, she must get baptised again(the "correct way"), thusly denying her infant baptism, and thusly denying that she was ever 'born again'. These are facts that cannot be denied because I've seen it happen.
I don't want to turn this into credo vs paedo, but for some churches this is reality.


thankyou for listening.

What kind of garbage is that? Our SBC church (which is the only one I can speak of) would require believer's baptism because that is what the bible speaks of. We in no way equate infant baptism with being born again. We also would not say that she was NOT born again because of infant baptism. You are confusing two different things.

 

[Assisi]

So her baptism is invalid but she is still born again? When did she 'get' born again?

How do you know she didn't believe as an infant?

 

[PaladinValer]

Holy Baptism of course.

Credo-baptism is too Gnostic-sounding for me.

 

[Dorothea]

An infant gets baptised.

This infant grows into a little girl, full of hope, joy and a belief in GOD.

This little girl continues her walk with GOD into adolescence...talking about GOD's love and Jesus to everyone she sees, because of her parents faith and maybe a catechism class at church, then a teenager emerges.

This teenager continues to love GOD with all her heart, and learns that Jesus said to love other's with all her heart no matter what, and despite what the secular world tells her she should become....she grows into a young woman. She loves church and loves that her parents taught her scripture.

This young woman walks with the LORD with joy and doubt and more joy and continues and continues loving GOD, despite her job telling her she can't talk about GOD at work, despite what her peers tell her that GOD doesn't exist, etc. Her daily devotional helps her deal with the world today...her faith grows and grows as she ages many years, continuing to learn from our GOD and His word...into old age.

The old woman dies, who used to be this same young woman...professing Jesus in her heart and mind.


Where is the supposed "born again" experience for her?

I don't see it and reject the entire claim that the bible mandates "born again christians"/a regenerate church membership as being the only way to be the true Church.
There are TONS of Christian denominations that would claim that this little infant baptised would NEVER be able to do this, hence NEVER being a Christian in the first place, and MUST show otherwise to be a Christian as a young adult or at the "age of accountibility".

Thoughts?





PS: do not bother to post that this scenerio is NOT possible because it is possible. Don't read into this what is not there please.

From my own personal experience at being baptized at 1-years-old, as well as chrismated and taking of my first Communion, that I had a relationship with God from then on. I didn't grow up in Church, but I had this father/child relationship with him from as early as I can remember, and throughout my growing up years, the Holy Spirit guided me at certain dire times in my teenaged and early 20s life. I did not realize this, but it was so....It wasn't until recently that I realized it was because of this that I came back to the Church (not the exact Church, but the Orthodox Church...which is the faith I was baptized in when I was 1) in my mid 20s. It was because I had put on Christ, gotten the seal of the Holy Spirit, and had partaken of His Body and Blood (the handful of times when I was in grade school years) that saved my life later on in my mid 20s. Don't want to get into too many specifics because I feel it's a private deal, but just wanted to share that He was with me the whole time. I just had to give up my self-controlling nature and let Him lead. Things changed for me after that night and time more than a decade ago. I thank God.

 

[Dorothea]

Maybe I muddle baptism and faith to credo-baptists, but I still believe that the way the "born again" thing as taught today is muddled beyond hope.

There are kids in my wife's k4-k5 catechism class that show more faith in Jesus than a lot of adults I know. They as Presbyterians were baptised as infants...will they NEED to be "born again"? I think not.

I know what you mean. My son was only 6 when he asked me why he doesn't ever see Jesus when he was a baby. I asked him exactly what he meant. He said he hasn't seen Jesus. I told him he sees Jesus in others, and he can feel him. Hard to explain to a little one. My son then said, that he Knows Jesus is there because he feels Him in "here," -- he pointed to his heart.

 

[sungaunga]

So her baptism is invalid but she is still born again? When did she 'get' born again?

How do you know she didn't believe as an infant?

only God knows when a person is truly born again. Regeneration is not something that is visible. Only in the persons changed actions we can assume but God knows if and when that event took place. Nobody comes out of the womb believing in God. The Bible explicitly states that we are all born in enmity with God. At some point in time, that girl was born of the spirit, after being born in the flesh.

 

[Albion]

What kind of garbage is that? Our SBC church (which is the only one I can speak of) would require believer's baptism because that is what the bible speaks of. We in no way equate infant baptism with being born again. We also would not say that she was NOT born again because of infant baptism. You are confusing two different things.

Actually, he is not. The problem is that there are three different answers being given. There are those who think that being born again is an adult phenomenon that happens at a point in time.

There are also those who have argued that while that is what happens in many people's lives, it is equally true that different people have been born again through a process that does not include any intellectual brainstorm identifiable with a particular moment in time. If one has ALWAYS been a believer in Christ, the circumstances of his or her religious development will be different.

But there is also the third group which identifies being born again with baptism itself, and with infant baptism to the extent that this is the norm in their churches. They see the spiritual graces and forgiveness of sins that the Bible associates with baptism with the idea of being "born again." To some extent these three overlap, but they are three, nonetheless.

 

[Polycarp1]

The Bible explicitly states that we are all born in enmity with God.

Not to engage in a fight, but can I have a verse for this. I realize it's dogma for many churches, but I am not aware of its being spelled out explicitly in Scripture. ("All men have sinned, and fallen short...." says something a bit different -- not that we are born at emnity with God, but that we all have fallen short of His expectations for us.)