Bible Teachings or Traditions of Men?

[Der Alte]

in whom we have our redemption, the forgiveness of our sins; who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by him were all things created, in the heavens and on the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and for him.
Colossians 1:14-16

"Firstborn" does not necessarily indicate one born first or that one is born at all.

Exodus 4:22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:​

The nation Israel was not the first and not even born but chosen.

Deut 25:6 And it shall be, that the firstborn which she beareth shall succeed in the name of his brother which is dead, that his name be not put out of Israel.​

The second son is made firstborn when the elder dies.

1 Chronicles 26:10 Also Hosah, of the children of Merari, had sons; Simri the chief, (for though he was not the firstborn, yet his father made him the chief.​

The second son made firstborn by his father.

Psalms 89:27 Also I will make him [David] my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth.​

David chosen as firstborn, by God, although he was not the eldest of his brothers.

Jeremiah 31:9 They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.​

Ephraim called firstborn, by God, although not the oldest son.

 

[Wgw]

ALTER2EGO -to- JOB8:

By definition, all religions are cults, so what point are you attempting to make? That you do not understand that you yourself are a member of a cult?

"Full Definition of CULT
1 : formal religious veneration:worship

2 : a system of religious beliefs and ritual;also: its body of adherents

3 : a religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious;also: its body of adherents

4 : a system for the cure of disease based on dogma set forth by its promulgator<healthcults>

5 a: great devotion to a person, idea, object, movement, or work (as a film or book);especially: such devotion regarded as a literary or intellectual fad

b: the object of such devotion"​

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/cult

As all reading this thread can see by definitions 1, 2, and 3 above, every single type of religion is defined as "cult." Since you are clearly religious, where does that leave you?

This definition of cult is an instance where a dictionary definition fails to properly convey the sense of the word. Definition 3 uses the word "unorthodox or spurious," which stops short of the abusive connotation conveyed by the word in regard to scientology, Jehovah's Witnesses, and other new religious movements which seek to financially exploit their adherents, while making it very difficult to leave.

Now that being said I myself wish we as a society had not adopted cult for that purpose, as it interferes with discussions of hagiography and discolours discussions of Greco-Roman paganism.

 

[Wgw]

Here's the mutilation of Heb 1:8,9 in the New World Translation (2013 Revision):
But about the Son, he says: “God is your throne+forever and ever, and the scepter of your Kingdom is the scepter of uprightness.*9 You loved righteousness, and you hated lawlessness. That is why God, your God, anointed you+ with the oil of exultation more than your companions.”

HOW CAN GOD BE A "THRONE" WHEN GOD SITS UPON HIS THRONE? That is utter nonsense. But they still could not avoid verse 9 which addressed God the Son.

It should also be noted that "thrones" along with "principalities, dominions, and powers" are enumerated by much Patristic literature and regarded by the Orthodox as amomg the upper angelic echelons.

 

[Imagican]

anyone that does a cursory study of the history of 'trinity' KNOWS it is a MAN MADE concept. It does NOT exist in the Bible. Nor was it EVER taught by God's prophets, Own Son or the apostles.

It did not exist in it's present form until MANY MANY centuries AFTER the death of Christ and His apostles.

So the answer can ONLY be 'tradition'. For it something that cannot even be KNOWN of unless it is TAUGHT to someone. Neither the WORD or the concept exists in the BIBLE.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[1213]

"Firstborn" does not necessarily indicate one born first or that one is born at all. ...

I can agree that firstborn means highest in rank. Then it could mean that Jesus is the highest of all created.

 

[Der Alte]

anyone that does a cursory study of the history of 'trinity' KNOWS it is a MAN MADE concept. It does NOT exist in the Bible. Nor was it EVER taught by God's prophets, Own Son or the apostles.

It did not exist in it's present form until MANY MANY [Wrong! DA] centuries AFTER the death of Christ and His apostles.

So the answer can ONLY be 'tradition'. For it something that cannot even be KNOWN of unless it is TAUGHT to someone. Neither the WORD or the concept [Wrong! DA] exists in the BIBLE.

Blessings,

MEC

Eleven passages, from the list of 86, below, which reveal the Triunity of God. Each passage shows Father, Son, and Holy Spirit having a different relationship, effect, role, purpose, etc., with respect to believers.

For example, #1, Titus 3:4, believers are SAVED BY Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, all three. We are SAVED BY,

1. the kindness and love of God our Savior,
2., by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost, shed on us abundantly
3. through Jesus Christ our Saviour, all three..

(1.) Tit 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of [1] God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of [2]the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he [3] shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

(2.) 2 Co 13:14 [1] The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and [2]the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, [3]be with you all. Amen.

(3.) Jud 1:20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, [1] praying in the Holy Ghost,

21 Keep yourselves [2]in the love of God, looking for [3] the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

(4.) 1 Pet 1:2 Elect according to [1] the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of [2] the Spirit, [Repeated three times, cf. 2 Th 2.13, Ro 15:16] unto obedience and [3] sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: [Repeated twice, cf. Heb 9.14] Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

(5.) Luk 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, [1] The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and [2] the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing, which shall be born of thee shall be called [3] the Son of God,.

(6.) Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be [1] baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive [2] the gift of the Holy Ghost,.

39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as [3] the Lord our God shall call,.

(7.) Rom 15:16 That I should be [1] the minister of Jesus Christ, to the Gentiles, ministering [2]the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being [3] sanctified by the Holy Ghost,.

(8.) Rom 15:12 And again, Esaias saith, There shall be [1] a root of Jesse,, and he, that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him, shall the Gentiles trust.

13 Now [2] the God of hope, fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through [3] the power of the Holy Ghost,.

(9.) Heb 9.14 How much more, then, will [1] the blood of Christ, who [2] through the eternal Spirit, offered himself unblemished [3] to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!,

(10.) 2 Thess 2.13 But we ought always to [1] thank God, for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God, chose you to be saved through [2] the sanctifying work of the Spirit, and through belief in the truth.

14 He called you to this through our gospel, that you might [3] share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ,.

(11.) I Cor 12.3 Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.

4 There are [1] different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit.,
5 There are [2] different kinds of service, but the same Lord.,
6 There are [3] different kinds of working, but the same God, works all of them in all men.

The Gospels and Acts

Mat 1:18-22, Mat 3:9-11, Mat 3:16-17, Mat 4:1-4, Mat 10:19-23, Mat 12:28, Mat 28:19, Mark 12:35-37, Lk 1:15-17, Lk 1:30-35 *, Lk 1:67-69, Lk 2:25-32, Lk 4:12-13, Lk 10:21, Lk 12:8-10, Jn 1:32-34, Jn 3:31-35, Jn 14:15-17, Jn 14:25, Jn 15:26, Jn 16:7-10, Jn 16:13-15, Jn 20:16-22, Acts 1:4-5, Acts 1:7-8, Acts 2:32-33, Acts 2:38-39*, Acts 4:8-10, Acts 4:24-26, Act 4:29-31, Acts 5:30-32, Acts 7:51-56, Acts 8:14-17, Acts 9:15-20 Acts 10:38, Acts 11:15-17, Acts 11:23-24, Acts 15:7-11, Acts 16:6-10, Acts 20:22-24, Acts 28:23-25.

The Pauline writings

Rom 1:1-4, Rom 5:1-5, Rom 8:9-11, Rom 8:13-16, Rom 8:26-29, Rom 15:12-13*, Rom 15:16*, , Rom 14:15-17, Rom 15:16, Rom 15:18-19, Rom 15:30, I Cor 2:8-10, I Cor 2:14-16, I Cor 6:9-11, I Cor 6:14-19, I Cor 12:3-5*, 2 Cor 1:20-22, 2 Cor 3:3-4, 2 Cor 13:14*, Gal 3:1-5, Gal 4:4-6, Gal 5:21-25, Eph 2:17-18, Eph 3:14-17, Eph 4:4-6, Eph 4:30-32, Eph 5:18-20, Phil 3:3, I Thess 1:4-6, 2 Thess 2:13-14*, I Tim 3:15-16, Titus 3:4-6.*

The General Epistles

Heb 2:3-4; Heb 6:3-6; Heb 9:14*; Heb 10:29-31; I Pet 1:2; * I Pet 3:18; I Pet 4:14; I Jn 3:21-24; I Jn 4:13-14; I Jn 5:6-9; Jud 1:20-21*.

Revelation

Rev 14:12-13, Rev 22:17-18,​

 

[ScottA]

ALTER2EGO -to- EVERYONE:
Two of the most basic teachings in Christendom are as follows:

1. THE TRINITY
The teaching that God is split up into three individual persons that are combined into one "Godhead" (Father, Son, and holy ghost/holy spirit). All three of these persons are said to be CO-EQUAL (meaning they have the same power) and CO-ETERNAL (meaning they have always existed at the same time and none of them can die).


2. HELLFIRE
The teaching that God will burn a person's soul in everlasting hellfire for committing wicked deeds. In other words, God will supposedly punish people forever in fiery flames of hell--despite the fact the crimes the persons committed were only done during the persons' brief human lifespan.


QUESTIONS FOR DISCUSSION:
1. Are there scriptures in the Bible to support the teachings of Trinity and hellfire? If so, present the scriptures by giving Bible book, chapter, and verse and also explain why you believe the scripture you present is talking about Trinity or literal hellfire.


2. Why are these teachings found in pagan/false religions that never worshipped the God of the Judeo-Christian Bible? For instance there were pagan trinities at least 200 years before Jesus came to the earth as a human.

A. In the 2nd century B.C.E. (two centuries before Christ came to the earth), Egypt had a triad of gods consisting of (1) Horus, (2) Osiris, and (3) Isis.


B. Likewise, in the 2nd century B.C.E. (two centuries before Christ came to the earth), Babylon had a triad of gods consisting of (1) Ishtar, (2) Sin, and (3) Shamash.


C. In fact, during the 1st century AD when Jesus was on earth, Palmyra, which was an ancient city in Syria, had a triune god which consisted of (1) moon god, (2) Lord of Heavens, and (3) sun god.​

3. If the Trinity and hellfire are Bible teachings, why is it that Jesus and his apostles who followed him around never taught anyone about the Trinity and literal hellfire?


4. How is it that both the Trinity and hellfire teachings did not become "Christian" teachings until the Roman Catholics copied both of them from pagan/false religions--AFTER the resurrected Jesus Christ returned to heaven?


5. If hell is a place of literal fiery torment, how is it that the Bible says Jesus went to hell for the entire three days that he was dead?

"He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that HIS SOUL WAS NOT LEFT IN HELL, neither his flesh did see corruption." (Acts 2:31--King James Version)


6. If hell is a place of literal torment, why is it that the word "hell" also means "Sheol" and "Hades" and "the grave"?


7. Does the Bible teach that humans have an immortal soul that survives the death of the person so that the soul can then be burned in eternal flames? If so, please present scriptures to this effect to prove it.


8. Are the words "Trinity" and "Godhead" in the Bible? If so, were those words part of the original writings?

Wow...this was started a long time ago...but if you are still checking in: You are stumbling over the parables of these topics.

Sure there were other trinities, and there were also other gods...but they cannot all be true. Indeed, only One is true.

As for hell fire: Fire is a word. If you were to describe "burning", you too would use similar words. But eye has not seen what the words or visions actually refer to. Is is not enough that the words describe something bad, something terrifying?

 

[Imagican]

Wow, firstborn doesn't mean FIRSTBORN. Begotten doesn't REALLY mean 'begotten'. The 'beginning of the creation of God' doesn't really MEAN the 'beginning of the creation of God'.

Der Alter, is there ANYTHING offered in the Bible that DOES mean what it offers?

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Imagican]

You know, the Bible says that what it offers is simple enough for a 'child to understand'. But it would seem that some are intent upon making it SO COMPLEX that a 'rocket scientist' couldn't figure it out.
How is a 'child' going to understand what's offered in the Bible if those among them insist that it doesn't REALLY mean what it says? That words and concepts have DIFFERENT meanings then what the Bible offers?

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Der Alte]

Wow, firstborn doesn't mean FIRSTBORN. Begotten doesn't REALLY mean 'begotten'. The 'beginning of the creation of God' doesn't really MEAN the 'beginning of the creation of God'.

Der Alter, is there ANYTHING offered in the Bible that DOES mean what it offers?

Blessings,MEC

If you wish to address something I posted then quote it in context, and state how you disagree with it. I don't recall saying anything about "the beginning of the creation of God" but Jesus cannot "be" the beginning when He already existed in the beginning, John 1.

Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning [ἀρχή] of the creation of God;

Joh 1:1 In the beginning [ἀρχή] was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities [ἀρχή], nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule [ἀρχή] and all authority and power.

Eph 1:21 Far above all principality [ἀρχή], and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:

Eph 3:10 To the intent that now unto the principalities [ἀρχή] and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities [ἀρχή], against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities [ἀρχή], or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Col 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality [ἀρχή] and power:

Tit 3:1 Put them in mind to be subject to principalities [ἀρχή] and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work, ​

 

[Der Alte]

You know, the Bible [i.e. "my favorite version." DA] says that what it offers is simple enough for a 'child to understand'. But it would seem that some are intent upon making it SO COMPLEX that a 'rocket scientist' couldn't figure it out.
How is a 'child' going to understand what's offered in the Bible if those among them insist that it [i.e. "my favorite version." DA] doesn't REALLY mean what it says? That words and concepts [i.e. "in my favorite version." DA] have DIFFERENT meanings then what the Bible [i.e. "the original manuscripts." DA] offers?
Blessings,
MEC

The problem is there are many religious groups around e.g. LDS. JW, SDA, OP, UPCI, WWCG, etc. all claiming that only they know and teach "what the Bible really says."

 

[Imagican]

First, you have stated in the past that begotten doesn't really mean begotten and that everything offered in the Bible that contradicts 'trinity' doesn't REALLY mean what it says. Now you offer that firstborn has nothing to do with being 'born first'.

Wouldn't it stand to reason that ANY and ALL versions of the Bible be simple enough for a child to understand?

For certainly you don't propose that God has offered NOTHING for the 'children'? That ONLY rocket scientists and the 'gifted' are granted the ability to comprehend the TRUTH?

Christ states that the kingdom of heaven will be filled with those like these: as He presented a 'CHILD'.

Seems pretty strange to believe that heaven will be filled with 'children' that have NO UNDERSTANDING.

I would offer that it's a matter of innocence and being able to BELIEVE without the 'world' getting in the way. The ability to LOVE unconditionally simply for the sake of love without expecting anything in return.

These things are simple to comprehend and understand. Trying to convince a 'child' that words don't REALLY mean what they mean couldn't be MORE confusing.

Blessings,
MEC

 

[Alter2Ego]

Wow...this was started a long time ago...but if you are still checking in: You are stumbling over the parables of these topics.

Sure there were other trinities, and there were also other gods...but they cannot all be true. Indeed, only One is true.

As for hell fire: Fire is a word. If you were to describe "burning", you too would use similar words. But eye has not seen what the words or visions actually refer to. Is is not enough that the words describe something bad, something terrifying?

ScottA:

You telling me that I am "stumbling" over parables is your personal opinion. And since everybody on this planet has an opinion, your best bet is to prove your claims by quoting an authoritative source, in this instance, the Judeo-Christian Bible. Until you can prove with scripture that Christendom's Trinity is a Bible teaching and that hellfire torment is literal and is "something terrifying," your above opinions mean absolutely nothing.

Alter2Ego


________________
"That people may know that you, whose name is JEHOVAH, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." ~ Psalms 83:18

 

[Der Alte]

First, you have stated in the past that begotten doesn't really mean begotten and that everything offered in the Bible that contradicts 'trinity' doesn't REALLY mean what it says. Now you offer that firstborn has nothing to do with being 'born first'.

I did not say either one of these things! I said that μονογενής/monogenes the word translated "only begotten" does not mean only begotten. It is a compound word the first word μονο/mono means "only," The second word γενής/genes is from γίνομαι/ginomai and is never translated born or begotten. I said that "firstborn" does not necessarily mean born first and I gave four examples from scripture to support that assertion.

γίνομαι/ginomai to cause to be (“gen” -erate), that is, (reflexively) to become (come into being), used with great latitude (literally, figuratively, intensively, etc.): - arise be assembled, be (come, -fall, -have self), be brought (to pass), (be) come (to pass), continue, be divided, be done, draw, be ended, fall, be finished, follow, be found, be fulfilled, + God forbid, grow, happen, have, be kept, be made, be married, be ordained to be, partake, pass, be performed, be published, require, seem, be showed, X soon as it was, sound, be taken, be turned, use, wax, will, would, be wrought.​

Wouldn't it stand to reason that ANY and ALL versions of the Bible be simple enough for a child to understand?

For certainly you don't propose that God has offered NOTHING for the 'children'? That ONLY rocket scientists and the 'gifted' are granted the ability to comprehend the TRUTH?

Irrational exaggeration. Let me know when you are ready to be realistic.

Christ states that the kingdom of heaven will be filled with those like these: as He presented a 'CHILD'.
Seems pretty strange to believe that heaven will be filled with 'children' that have NO UNDERSTANDING.
I would offer that it's a matter of innocence and being able to BELIEVE without the 'world' getting in the way. The ability to LOVE unconditionally simply for the sake of love without expecting anything in return.

We are not talking about children believing and being saved. We are talking about people who claim that they have the only true understanding of the Bible and that anyone who disagrees with them is at best not saved, at worst a tool of Satan.

These things are simple to comprehend and understand. Trying to convince a 'child' that words don't REALLY mean what they mean couldn't be MORE confusing.

Blessings,
MEC

Let me know when you want to get back to the truth.

 

[Der Alte]

ScottA:

You telling me that I am "stumbling" over parables is your personal opinion. And since everybody on this planet has an opinion, your best bet is to prove your claims by quoting an authoritative source, in this instance, the Judeo-Christian Bible. Until you can prove with scripture that Christendom's Trinity is a Bible teaching and that hellfire torment is literal and is "something terrifying," your above opinions mean absolutely nothing.

Alter2Ego

Eleven passages, from the list of 86, below, which reveal the Triunity of God. Each passage shows Father, Son, and Holy Spirit having a different relationship, effect, role, purpose, etc., with respect to believers.

For example, #1, Titus 3:4, believers are SAVED BY Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, all three. We are SAVED BY,

1. the kindness and love of God our Savior,
2., by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost, shed on us abundantly
3. through Jesus Christ our Saviour, all three..

(1.) Tit 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of [1] God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of [2]the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he [3] shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

(2.) 2 Co 13:14 [1] The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and [2]the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, [3]be with you all. Amen.

(3.) Jud 1:20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, [1] praying in the Holy Ghost,

21 Keep yourselves [2]in the love of God, looking for [3] the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

(4.) 1 Pet 1:2 Elect according to [1] the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of [2] the Spirit, [Repeated three times, cf. 2 Th 2.13, Ro 15:16] unto obedience and [3] sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: [Repeated twice, cf. Heb 9.14] Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

(5.) Luk 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, [1] The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and [2] the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing, which shall be born of thee shall be called [3] the Son of God,.

(6.) Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be [1] baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive [2] the gift of the Holy Ghost,.

39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as [3] the Lord our God shall call,.

(7.) Rom 15:16 That I should be [1] the minister of Jesus Christ, to the Gentiles, ministering [2]the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being [3] sanctified by the Holy Ghost,.

(8.) Rom 15:12 And again, Esaias saith, There shall be [1] a root of Jesse,, and he, that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him, shall the Gentiles trust.

13 Now [2] the God of hope, fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through [3] the power of the Holy Ghost,.

(9.) Heb 9.14 How much more, then, will [1] the blood of Christ, who [2] through the eternal Spirit, offered himself unblemished [3] to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!,

(10.) 2 Thess 2.13 But we ought always to [1] thank God, for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God, chose you to be saved through [2] the sanctifying work of the Spirit, and through belief in the truth.

14 He called you to this through our gospel, that you might [3] share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ,.

(11.) I Cor 12.3 Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.
4 There are [1] different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit.,
5 There are [2] different kinds of service, but the same Lord.,
6 There are [3] different kinds of working, but the same God, works all of them in all men.

The Gospels and Acts
Mat 1:18-22, Mat 3:9-11, Mat 3:16-17, Mat 4:1-4, Mat 10:19-23, Mat 12:28, Mat 28:19, Mark 12:35-37, Lk 1:15-17, Lk 1:30-35 *, Lk 1:67-69, Lk 2:25-32, Lk 4:12-13, Lk 10:21, Lk 12:8-10, Jn 1:32-34, Jn 3:31-35, Jn 14:15-17, Jn 14:25, Jn 15:26, Jn 16:7-10, Jn 16:13-15, Jn 20:16-22, Acts 1:4-5, Acts 1:7-8, Acts 2:32-33, Acts 2:38-39*, Acts 4:8-10, Acts 4:24-26, Act 4:29-31, Acts 5:30-32, Acts 7:51-56, Acts 8:14-17, Acts 9:15-20 Acts 10:38, Acts 11:15-17, Acts 11:23-24, Acts 15:7-11, Acts 16:6-10, Acts 20:22-24, Acts 28:23-25.

The Pauline writings
Rom 1:1-4, Rom 5:1-5, Rom 8:9-11, Rom 8:13-16, Rom 8:26-29, Rom 15:12-13*, Rom 15:16*, , Rom 14:15-17, Rom 15:16, Rom 15:18-19, Rom 15:30, I Cor 2:8-10, I Cor 2:14-16, I Cor 6:9-11, I Cor 6:14-19, I Cor 12:3-5*, 2 Cor 1:20-22, 2 Cor 3:3-4, 2 Cor 13:14*, Gal 3:1-5, Gal 4:4-6, Gal 5:21-25, Eph 2:17-18, Eph 3:14-17, Eph 4:4-6, Eph 4:30-32, Eph 5:18-20, Phil 3:3, I Thess 1:4-6, 2 Thess 2:13-14*, I Tim 3:15-16, Titus 3:4-6.*

The General Epistles
Heb 2:3-4; Heb 6:3-6; Heb 9:14*; Heb 10:29-31; I Pet 1:2; * I Pet 3:18; I Pet 4:14; I Jn 3:21-24; I Jn 4:13-14; I Jn 5:6-9; Jud 1:20-21*.

Revelation
Rev 14:12-13, Rev 22:17-18,​

 

[Der Alte]

...Until you can prove with scripture that Christendom's Trinity is a Bible teaching and that hellfire torment is literal and is "something terrifying," your above opinions mean absolutely nothing.

Alter2Ego

The Jews, in Israel before and during the time of Jesus believed in a place of eternal, unending, fiery torment and they called it both Gehinnom/Gehenna and Sheol. When Jesus taught about,

• "Eternal punishment, Mt 25:46"
• "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mk 9:43-48" and
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Mt 13:42, 50
• “better for him [a person who offends a little one] that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea. Mt 18:6
• “it had been good for him [the one who betrays Jesus] if he had not been born.” Mat 26:24​

These teachings reaffirmed and sanctioned the existing Jewish view of eternal hell. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24, above, Jesus teaches that there is a fate worse than death or nonexistence. A fate worse than death is also mentioned in Heb 10:28-31.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.​

The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died, young, old, good, bad, and knew that it was permanent. When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” they would not have understood it as death, it would have meant something worse to them.

Jesus knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong, when Jesus taught about man’s eternal fate, such as eternal punishment, He would have corrected them. Jesus did not correct them, thus their teaching on hell was correct. Here is historical evidence to support this.

Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna

The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch was originally in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). For this reason the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a); [Note, according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT the bias of Christian translators.]

It is assumed in general that sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b).

But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]

As mentioned above, heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).

Link:Jewish Encyclopedia Online
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Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.

The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim,[follower of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written [Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."

Link:Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.

The traditional explanation that a burning rubbish heap in the Valley of Hinnom south of Jerusalem gave rise to the idea of a fiery Gehenna of judgment is attributed to Rabbi David Kimhi's commentary on Psalm 27:13 (ca. A.D. 1200). He maintained that in this loathsome valley fires were kept burning perpetually to consume the filth and cadavers thrown into it. However, Strack and Billerbeck state that there is neither archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources (Hermann L. Strack and Paul Billerbeck, Kommentar zum Neuen Testament aus Talmud and Midrasch, 5 vols. [Munich: Beck, 1922-56], 4:2:1030). Also a more recent author holds a similar view (Lloyd R. Bailey, "Gehenna: The Topography of Hell," Biblical Archeologist 49 [1986]: 189.

Source, Bibliotheca Sacra / July–September 1992

http://faculty.gordon.edu/hu/bi/ted_hildebrandt/NTeSources/NTArticles/BSac-NT/Scharen-GenenaSyn-Pt1-BS.htm

“.It is common practice, both in scholarly and less technical works, to associate the description of Gehenna with the supposedly contemporary garbage dump in the valley of Hinnom. This association often leads scholars to emphasize the destructive aspects of the judgment here depicted: fire burns until the object is completely consumed. Two particular problems may be noted in connection with this approach. First, there is no convincing evidence in the primary sources for the existence of a fiery rubbish dump in this location (in any case, a thorough investigation would be appreciated). Secondly, the significant background to this passage more probably lies in Jesus’ allusion to Isaiah 66:24.”

(“The Duration of Divine Judgment in the New Testament” in The Reader Must Understand edited by K. Brower and M. W. Ellion, p. 223, emphasis mine)

G. R. Beasley-Murray in Jesus and the Kingdom of God:

“Ge-Hinnom (Aramaic Ge-hinnam, hence the Greek Geenna), ‘. The notion, still referred to by some commentators, that the city’s rubbish was burned in this valley, has no further basis than a statement by the Jewish scholar Kimchi (sic) made about A.D. 1200; it is not attested in any ancient source.” (p. 376n.92)

http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/20113-the-burning-garbage-dump-of-gehenna-is-a-myth/

 

[ScottA]

your above opinions mean absolutely nothing.

It does if it agrees with the God of the universe (and it does). But I don't need to prove anything.

Enjoy.

 

[Imagican]

once again, only those that choose ignorance over knowledge would even attempt to offer that 'trinity' existed PREVIOUS to it's INVENTION. And history plainly reveals that it was indeed invented by the RCC. While they insist that it was revealed. The FUNNY part is that it took two thousand years for 'trinity' to evolve into what those that profess to believe in it say it means TODAY.

I can think of NO OTHER revelation of God that took two thousand years of evolution.

And even today, ask ten trinitarians what it means and one will receive ten DIFFERENT definitions. Does God REALLY reveal TRUTH in such a manner? That ten different people He reveals truth to have TEN DIFFERENT definitions of that truth?

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Alter2Ego]

It does if it agrees with the God of the universe (and it does). But I don't need to prove anything.

Enjoy.

ScottA:

That is a big "IF," considering you have failed to produce one single verse of scripture from the Bible to support your claim. Your claim is that I am "stumbling over parables" because I stated in my Opening Post that (1) literal hellfire torment is NOT a Bible teaching, and (2) Christendom's Trinity is NOT a Bible teaching. When I challenged you to prove that I am "stumbling over parables" and to prove it with scriptures from the Judeo-Christian Bible, you now come back with: "I don't need to prove anything."

Truth be told, if you were able to prove it, you would have done it by now.

Alter2Ego



________________
"That people may know that you, whose name is JEHOVAH, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." ~ Psalms 83:18

 

[Wgw]

The problem is there are many religious groups around e.g. LDS. JW, SDA, OP, UPCI, WWCG, etc. all claiming that only they know and teach "what the Bible really says."

Then we have the UUA, which would agree wih the anti-Trinitarian theology expressed here while at the same time I suspect most likely disavowing any knowledge as to what the Bible actually says, or that indeed it actually has any unified message at all.