Bible Teachings or Traditions of Men?

Job8

Senior Member
Dec 1, 2014
4,634
1,801
✟21,583.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Duh? 10) Thereverence of Jehovah is the beginning of wisdom; A good understanding have all those who do His commandments.
His praise endures forever another. verse says: 23 And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.
Mar 15:34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? Joh 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.Col 2:9 For in him the fullness of divine quality doth tabernacle in a fleshly


And what exactly are these Scriptures meant to prove? Taking verses out of context does not disprove Bible doctrine. We could go into the significance of the above verses and determine their meaning in context, but it would not disprove either the doctrine of the Trinity, or the Deity of Christ.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Wgw
Upvote 0

fizzygiraffe

There's No Present Like The TIme
Aug 24, 2015
110
17
✟7,835.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
They're quite familiar with Jehovah Witness materials being they are one. And if you search for that screen name they always use on any search engine, Alter2Ego, noticing that spelling of Alter, you'll find that out.
Or, simply highlight any post they make, a sentence or paragraph in these type posts, and search for that. You'll find a huge number of links. No credit to the source of their paste though.
We had our encounter about two years ago at our forums with this material. He's a promoter of JW but doesn't acknowledge it in the faith question.
(Link to God And Science Forum - and this very same OP post)


Surely the Jehovah's Witnesses literature itself lists them en route to trying to rebut them. Do you mean to say that you aren't familiar with the MANY verses that you would like us to take the time to post here?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Wgw
Upvote 0

Alter2Ego

Newbie
Feb 8, 2013
102
6
Los Angeles, California
✟8,981.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
And what exactly are these Scriptures meant to prove? Taking verses out of context does not disprove Bible doctrine. We could go into the significance of the above verses and determine their meaning in context, but it would not disprove either the doctrine of the Trinity, or the Deity of Christ.

ALTER2EGO -to- JOB8:

Nothing was taken out of context where Psalms 110:1 is concerned.



"The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool." (Psalms 110:1 -- King James Version)

According to that scripture, God is literally talking to himself. During the conversation with himself, Jehovah puts himself on his own right hand and refers to the enemy of the son (Jesus) as "your" enemy (indicating the enemy is Jesus' enemy and not Jehovah's), rather than using the possessive "our enemy."


Psalms 110:1 makes it clear that Jehovah (the Father) and Jesus Christ (the Son) are not the same god, and it was quoted within context (the surrounding words, verses, and chapters).

Truth be told, Psalms 110:1 is a nail in the Trinitarian coffin, and you realize it to be so. That explains why you showed making the above nonsensical claim that the verse was quoted out of context, when clearly it was not.
 
Upvote 0

Alter2Ego

Newbie
Feb 8, 2013
102
6
Los Angeles, California
✟8,981.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Opposition to the doctrines of the Trinity (which includes opposition to the Deity of Christ) and Hell Fire is generally the mark of a cult. Beware of false prophets and false teachers.

ALTER2EGO -to- JOB8:

By definition, all religions are cults, so what point are you attempting to make? That you do not understand that you yourself are a member of a cult?



"Full Definition of CULT
1 : formal religious veneration:worship

2 : a system of religious beliefs and ritual;also: its body of adherents

3 : a religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious;also: its body of adherents

4 : a system for the cure of disease based on dogma set forth by its promulgator<healthcults>

5 a: great devotion to a person, idea, object, movement, or work (as a film or book);especially: such devotion regarded as a literary or intellectual fad

b: the object of such devotion"​

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/cult


As all reading this thread can see by definitions 1, 2, and 3 above, every single type of religion is defined as "cult." Since you are clearly religious, where does that leave you?
 
Upvote 0

Job8

Senior Member
Dec 1, 2014
4,634
1,801
✟21,583.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Nothing was taken out of context where Psalms 110:1 is concerned. "The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool." (Psalms 110:1 -- King James Version)
OK, Now let's put this verse in the context of its meaning as revealed in the New Testament (Heb 1:5-14), and you will see that God the Father is addressing God the Son:

5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.
13 But to which of the angels said he at any time,
Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

This passage clearly confirms and establishes that JESUS IS GOD, as follows:
1. Only God can, and should, be worshipped by all the holy angels, and here God the Father commands that they worship God the Son.
2. God the Father addresses Jesus the Son as "GOD" (THEOS) twice
(but you won't find that in the Jehovah's Witnesses New World Translation, which has deliberately mutilated this passage).
3. Jesus is addressed as "thou Lord" who created all things. In Psalm 102 from which that is quoted, the reference is to God Himself (Ps 102:24).
4. Heb 1:13 quotes Psalm 110:1 as confirmation that Jesus is God.

IF YOU CONTINUE TO DENY THAT JESUS IS GOD, YOU ARE NOW CHALLENGING GOD THE FATHER. THE CONSEQUENCES ARE EXTREMELY SERIOUS.



 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Albion

Facilitator
Dec 8, 2004
111,138
33,258
✟583,842.00
Country
United States
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
As all reading this thread can see by definitions 1, 2, and 3 above, every single type of religion is defined as "cult."

We covered that point some time ago...on another thread. That definition, while correct, is archaic.

The issue is entirely about the modern use of the word, which, by and large, means definition 3, except that it would still remain to be specific about what, in particular, is to be considered "spurious."
 
  • Like
Reactions: Wgw
Upvote 0

Job8

Senior Member
Dec 1, 2014
4,634
1,801
✟21,583.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Here's the mutilation of Heb 1:8,9 in the New World Translation (2013 Revision):
But about the Son, he says: “God is your throne+forever and ever, and the scepter of your Kingdom is the scepter of uprightness.*9 You loved righteousness, and you hated lawlessness. That is why God, your God, anointed you+ with the oil of exultation more than your companions.”

HOW CAN GOD BE A "THRONE" WHEN GOD SITS UPON HIS THRONE? That is utter nonsense. But they still could not avoid verse 9 which addressed God the Son.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Wgw
Upvote 0

Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old.
Supporter
Aug 21, 2003
28,575
6,063
EST
✟991,946.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
They're quite familiar with Jehovah Witness materials being they are one. And if you search for that screen name they always use on any search engine, Alter2Ego, noticing that spelling of Alter, you'll find that out.
Or, simply highlight any post they make, a sentence or paragraph in these type posts, and search for that. You'll find a huge number of links. No credit to the source of their paste though.
We had our encounter about two years ago at our forums with this material. He's a promoter of JW but doesn't acknowledge it in the faith question.
(Link to God And Science Forum - and this very same OP post)

I must take exception to one thing you said. "He's a promoter of JW..." should actually be "She's a promoter of JW." I too have encountered A2E on another forum exact same posts as posted here.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Wgw
Upvote 0

Gregory Thompson

Change is inevitable, feel free to spare some.
Supporter
Dec 20, 2009
28,362
7,742
Canada
✟721,286.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Married
An authoritarian mode of announcing the correct way of thinking is also very "cultish"

I recall some years ago when I was a baptist, no seriously .. well anyway, there was this evangelical tendency to call anything that was law oriented or legalistic "a cult" in general if something is a cult it tends to teach things that do not lead to salvation in that context from what I recall anyway.

Now, a cult is any organization of a religious nature that uses people as things and rituals to control their mind regardless of how subtle these elements may be .
 
Upvote 0

he-man

he-man
Oct 28, 2010
8,891
301
usa
✟90,748.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private


And what exactly are these Scriptures meant to prove? Taking verses out of context does not disprove Bible doctrine. We could go into the significance of the above verses and determine their meaning in context, but it would not disprove either the doctrine of the Trinity, or the Deity of Christ.
Just as some people did not believe Moses, some people do not believe what God says TODAY!
Moses answered, “What if they do not believe me or listen to me Exodus 4:1-2 (NIV)
Mt 20:3 And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but for them of whom it is prepared of my Father.
to sit: Rather, "to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, except to them for whom it is prepared of my Father." [TSK] he, as mediator, was appointed to bestow both grace and glory on men, yet only on those the Father had given to him , for whom grace was laid up in him, and glory prepared. [GILL] The passage thus declares that Christ would give rewards to his followers, but only to such as should be entitled to them according to the purpose of his Father. He would bestow them according as they had been provided from eternity by God the Father, Mat_25:34.

The correct sense is seen by leaving out that part of the verse in italics, and this is one of the places in the Bible where the sense has been obscured by the introduction of words which have nothing to correspond with them in the original.[BARNES]
According to Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Mar 15:34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? Joh 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God , and your God.

Col 2:9 For in him the fullness of divine quality doth tabernacle in a fleshly
1Co 15:24 Then the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, even then shall the Son also himself be subject unto Him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
[Prof. Mills, in Bib. Rep. vol. iii. p. 748ff.]
1Co 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ, God.
1Co 3:23 And ye are Christ's; and Christ, God's.1Co 3:23 And ye are Christ's; and Christ, God's.
Php 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
1Co 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
Ps 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Just as many people distort the punctuation of what Jesus replied to the thief on the cross do not consider that very day when he was buried, and spent 3 days in the grave Luk 23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee Today, thou shalt be with me in paradise.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Alter2Ego

Newbie
Feb 8, 2013
102
6
Los Angeles, California
✟8,981.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
OK, Now let's put this verse in the context of its meaning as revealed in the New Testament (Heb 1:5-14), and you will see that God the Father is addressing God the Son:

Job8:

You opened your post by mentioning the first falsehood. There are no scriptures in the Bible that identify anyone with the expression "God the Son."

To top it off, you claim the context to Psalms 110:1 is within an entirely different book of the Bible, namely Hebrews. Wrong. The context to Psalms 110:1 has to be found within the book of Psalms.

What Hebrews does is confirm that Psalm 110:1 is correct and that the Son (Jesus Christ) is not the same god as Jehovah the Father. I will show this in a separate post.

Alter2Ego
 
Upvote 0

Alter2Ego

Newbie
Feb 8, 2013
102
6
Los Angeles, California
✟8,981.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
OK, Now let's put this verse in the context of its meaning as revealed in the New Testament (Heb 1:5-14), and you will see that God the Father is addressing God the Son:

5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
Job8:

Hebrews 1:5 confirms that Jesus Christ is an angel and that he was "begotten." Look at the words that I bolded in red. The word "begotten" refers to to a created being. Your own quotation says Jesus Christ, the Son, was created.

DEFINITION OF "BEGOTTEN": "Begotten means something created something else or someone fathered a child."
http://www.yourdictionary.com/begotten

http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Hebrews-1-5/
6 And again, when he bringeth in the first begotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

Look at that. You presented more evidence against Trinity when you quoted from. Hebrews 1:6. It again refers to Jesus Christ as "begotten"--proof positive that Jesus Christ was created and therefore he could not possibly be in a trinity with Jehovah in which he is claimed to be co-eternal. An eternal person cannot be "begotten" aka created.

I will address the remainder of your verses from Hebrews at another time.

Alter2Ego
 
Upvote 0

he-man

he-man
Oct 28, 2010
8,891
301
usa
✟90,748.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Job8:

You opened your post by mentioning the first falsehood. There are no scriptures in the Bible that identify anyone with the expression "God the Son."

To top it off, you claim the context to Psalms 110:1 is within an entirely different book of the Bible, namely Hebrews. Wrong. The context to Psalms 110:1 has to be found within the book of Psalms.

What Hebrews does is confirm that Psalm 110:1 is correct and that the Son (Jesus Christ) is not the same god as Jehovah the Father. I will show this in a separate post.

Alter2Ego
Amen! Just as some people did not believe Moses, some people do not believe what God says TODAY! and think it s a big joke then they falsely imply that Jesus is GOD! Genesis 19:14 So Lot went out and spoke to his sons-in-law, who had married his daughters, and said, "Get up, get out of this place; for Jehovah will destroy this city!" But to his sons-in-law he seemed to be joking.
Is 56:11 Yes, they are greedy dogs Which never have enough. And they are shepherds
Who cannot understand; They all look to their own way, Every one for his own gain,
From his own territory. [/size][/b]
Moses answered, “What if they do not believe me or listen to me Exodus 4:1-2 (NIV)
Mt 20:3 And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but for them of whom it is prepared of my Father.
to sit: Rather, "to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, except to them for whom it is prepared of my Father." [TSK] he, as mediator, was appointed to bestow both grace and glory on men, yet only on those the Father had given to him , for whom grace was laid up in him, and glory prepared. [GILL] The passage thus declares that Christ would give rewards to his followers, but only to such as should be entitled to them according to the purpose of his Father. He would bestow them according as they had been provided from eternity by God the Father, Mat_25:34.

The correct sense is seen by leaving out that part of the verse in italics, and this is one of the places in the Bible where the sense has been obscured by the introduction of words which have nothing to correspond with them in the original.[BARNES]
According to Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Mar 15:34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? Joh 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God , and your God.

Col 2:9 For in him the fullness of divine quality doth tabernacle in a fleshly
1Co 15:24 Then the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, even then shall the Son also himself be subject unto Him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
[Prof. Mills, in Bib. Rep. vol. iii. p. 748ff.]
1Co 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ, God.
1Co 3:23 And ye are Christ's; and Christ, God's.1Co 3:23 And ye are Christ's; and Christ, God's.
Php 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
1Co 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
Ps 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Just as many people distort the punctuation of what Jesus replied to the thief on the cross do not consider that very day when he was buried, and spent 3 days in the grave Luk 23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee Today, thou shalt be with me in paradise.
 
Upvote 0

he-man

he-man
Oct 28, 2010
8,891
301
usa
✟90,748.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Job8:You opened your post by mentioning the first falsehood. There are no scriptures in the Bible that identify anyone with the expression "God the Son." Alter2Ego
Yes, and what happens to people that distort the truth? Gal 3:2 I would like to learn just one thing from them: Did they receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what they heard?

Ezek 9:3 And He called to the man clothed with linen, who had the writer's inkhorn at his side;
(5) To the others He said in my hearing, "Go after him through the city and kill; do not let your eye spare, nor have any pity. (6) Utterly slay old and young men, maidens and little children and women; but do not come near anyone on whom is the mark; and begin at My sanctuary." So they began with the elders who were before the temple.
(7) Then He said to them, "Defile the temple, and fill the courts with the slain. Go out!" And they went out and killed in the city. (8) So it was, that while they were killing them, I was left alone; and I fell on my face and cried out, and said, "Ah, Lord GOD! Will You destroy all the remnant of Israel in pouring out Your fury on Jerusalem?"

Isa 66:16 For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

he-man

he-man
Oct 28, 2010
8,891
301
usa
✟90,748.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Job8: Hebrews 1:5 confirms that Jesus Christ is an angel and that he was "begotten." Look at the words that I bolded in red. The word "begotten" refers to to a created being. Your own quotation says Jesus Christ, the Son, was created.
[Alter2Ego[/COLOR]
Yes, and some have forgotten that 1 Corinthians 5:7 For we walk by faith, not by sight.

Just as some people did not believe Moses, some people do not believe what God says TODAY!

Moses answered, “What if they do not believe me or listen to me Exodus 4:1-2 (NIV)
Mt 20:3 And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but for them of whom it is prepared of my Father.
to sit: Rather, "to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, except to them for whom it is prepared of my Father." [TSK] he, as mediator, was appointed to bestow both grace and glory on men, yet only on those the Father had given to him , for whom grace was laid up in him, and glory prepared. [GILL] The passage thus declares that Christ would give rewards to his followers, but only to such as should be entitled to them according to the purpose of his Father. He would bestow them according as they had been provided from eternity by God the Father, Mat_25:34.

The correct sense is seen by leaving out that part of the verse in italics, and this is one of the places in the Bible where the sense has been obscured by the introduction of words which have nothing to correspond with them in the original.[BARNES]
According to Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Mar 15:34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? Joh 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God , and your God.

Col 2:9 For in him the fullness of divine quality doth tabernacle in a fleshly
1Co 15:24 Then the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, even then shall the Son also himself be subject unto Him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
[Prof. Mills, in Bib. Rep. vol. iii. p. 748ff.]
1Co 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ, God.
1Co 3:23 And ye are Christ's; and Christ, God's.1Co 3:23 And ye are Christ's; and Christ, God's.
Php 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
1Co 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
Ps 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Just as many people distort the punctuation of what Jesus replied to the thief on the cross do not consider that very day when he was buried, and spent 3 days in the grave Luk 23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee Today, thou shalt be with me in paradise.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Alter2Ego

Newbie
Feb 8, 2013
102
6
Los Angeles, California
✟8,981.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
ALTER2EGO -to- EVERYONE:


Christendom's trinity, written in Article I of The Catholic Faith, is defined as follows:


"There is but one living and true God, everlasting, without body, parts, or passions; of infinite power, wisdom, and goodness; the maker and preserver of all things both visible and indivisible. And in unity of this Godhead there be three persons, of ONE substance, POWER, and eternity; the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost."

http://www.sevenwholedays.org/2011/03/10/article-i/

http://mb-soft.com/believe/txc/thirtyni.htm

According to the above man-made dogma, the son (Jesus Christ) has the same power as Jehovah the Father. The Bible says the exact opposite. Jesus Christ himself said the following:


"You heard that I said to you, I am going away and I am coming back to you. If you loved me, you would rejoice that I am going my way to the Father, because the Father is GREATER than I am." (John 14:28)

So it comes right down to who one chooses to believe--the Bible or those who dreamed up Christendom's Trinity.
 
  • Like
Reactions: he-man
Upvote 0

Albion

Facilitator
Dec 8, 2004
111,138
33,258
✟583,842.00
Country
United States
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
It never does to cherry-pick scripture...and to settle on a verse that can be understood in several different ways in addition. There is so much in Scripture that identifies Christ as God, with all the attributes of God, that it's useless to reject all of that without even a consideration.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Wgw
Upvote 0

Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old.
Supporter
Aug 21, 2003
28,575
6,063
EST
✟991,946.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Job8:

Hebrews 1:5 confirms that Jesus Christ is an angel and that he was "begotten." Look at the words that I bolded in red. The word "begotten" refers to to a created being. Your own quotation says Jesus Christ, the Son, was created.

We have had this discussion before at the other forum which you ignored. We are all aware of what the JWs teach. But their NWT is a travesty, just the KJV rewritten by a group of JW leaders none of whom had any training in Biblical Hebrew or Greek. It was deliberately rewritten to support JW false doctrine. Heb 1:5 does not prove Jesus was an angel. It proves just the opposite.

DEFINITION OF "BEGOTTEN": "Begotten means something created something else or someone fathered a child."
http://www.yourdictionary.com/begotten

You have correctly given the definition of the English word begotten but NOT the Greek word incorrectly translated as begotten. The Greek word incorrectly translated "only begotten" in the NT is μονογενής/monogenes. It is a compound word formed from the word monos which means "only." The second word is γενής/genes which is a form of
γίνομαι/ginomai, see definition below. None of the definitions are beget or begotten. Ginomai alone occurs 709 times in the NT. It is never translated any form of begotten. So μονογενής/monogenes does not prove Jesus was created.

γίνομαι ginomai
Thayer Definition:
1) to become, i.e. to come into existence, begin to be, receive being
2) to become, i.e. to come to pass, happen
2a) of events
3) to arise, appear in history, come upon the stage
3a) of men appearing in public
4) to be made, finished
4a) of miracles, to be performed, wrought
5) to become, be made
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: a prolongation and middle voice form of a primary verb

Look at that. You presented more evidence against Trinity when you quoted from. Hebrews 1:6. It again refers to Jesus Christ as "begotten"--proof positive that Jesus Christ was created and therefore he could not possibly be in a trinity with Jehovah in which he is claimed to be co-eternal. An eternal person cannot be "begotten" aka created.
Nothing in the NT proves that Jesus was created.

I will address the remainder of your verses from Hebrews at another time.
Alter2Ego

Please do I will refute those as well. Are you coming back to the midlands?
 
Upvote 0

1213

Disciple of Jesus
Jul 14, 2011
3,661
1,117
Visit site
✟146,199.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Nothing in the NT proves that Jesus was created.

in whom we have our redemption, the forgiveness of our sins; who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by him were all things created, in the heavens and on the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and for him.
Colossians 1:14-16
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Albion

Facilitator
Dec 8, 2004
111,138
33,258
✟583,842.00
Country
United States
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
"in whom we have our redemption, the forgiveness of our sins; who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by him were all things created, in the heavens and on the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and for him."
Colossians 1:14-16
 
Upvote 0