Bible Teachings or Traditions of Men?

[Alter2Ego]

ALTER2EGO -to- EVERYONE:
Two of the most basic teachings in Christendom are as follows:

1. THE TRINITY
The teaching that God is split up into three individual persons that are combined into one "Godhead" (Father, Son, and holy ghost/holy spirit). All three of these persons are said to be CO-EQUAL (meaning they have the same power) and CO-ETERNAL (meaning they have always existed at the same time and none of them can die).


2. HELLFIRE
The teaching that God will burn a person's soul in everlasting hellfire for committing wicked deeds. In other words, God will supposedly punish people forever in fiery flames of hell--despite the fact the crimes the persons committed were only done during the persons' brief human lifespan.


QUESTIONS FOR DISCUSSION:
1. Are there scriptures in the Bible to support the teachings of Trinity and hellfire? If so, present the scriptures by giving Bible book, chapter, and verse and also explain why you believe the scripture you present is talking about Trinity or literal hellfire.


2. Why are these teachings found in pagan/false religions that never worshipped the God of the Judeo-Christian Bible? For instance there were pagan trinities at least 200 years before Jesus came to the earth as a human.

A. In the 2nd century B.C.E. (two centuries before Christ came to the earth), Egypt had a triad of gods consisting of (1) Horus, (2) Osiris, and (3) Isis.


B. Likewise, in the 2nd century B.C.E. (two centuries before Christ came to the earth), Babylon had a triad of gods consisting of (1) Ishtar, (2) Sin, and (3) Shamash.


C. In fact, during the 1st century AD when Jesus was on earth, Palmyra, which was an ancient city in Syria, had a triune god which consisted of (1) moon god, (2) Lord of Heavens, and (3) sun god.​

3. If the Trinity and hellfire are Bible teachings, why is it that Jesus and his apostles who followed him around never taught anyone about the Trinity and literal hellfire?


4. How is it that both the Trinity and hellfire teachings did not become "Christian" teachings until the Roman Catholics copied both of them from pagan/false religions--AFTER the resurrected Jesus Christ returned to heaven?


5. If hell is a place of literal fiery torment, how is it that the Bible says Jesus went to hell for the entire three days that he was dead?

"He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that HIS SOUL WAS NOT LEFT IN HELL, neither his flesh did see corruption." (Acts 2:31--King James Version)


6. If hell is a place of literal torment, why is it that the word "hell" also means "Sheol" and "Hades" and "the grave"?


7. Does the Bible teach that humans have an immortal soul that survives the death of the person so that the soul can then be burned in eternal flames? If so, please present scriptures to this effect to prove it.


8. Are the words "Trinity" and "Godhead" in the Bible? If so, were those words part of the original writings?

 

[Root of Jesse]

Genesis 1:2 God and the Holy Spirit are spoken of (mighty wind-holy spirit is, literally breath of God). 1:26 God say "Let US make Man in our own image". Us refers to the Son.
Jesus speaks several times of the Fires of Gehenna. But hell isn't necessarily a roasting pit. Hell is the absence of God. Pure and simple.
Secondly, the gods of Egypt and Syria are created things, are they not? The God of the Universe, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are Lords of everything.
Next, Jesus said to go forth and baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Again He preached about the fires of Gehenna.
Fourthly, the Catholic Church didn't copy anything. While it's true that they took pagan practices at times and made them holy, it's not the same thing.
Fifth, hell is not a literal place. It is a state of the soul.
Seventh, and it comes from Job somewhere "Before you were in the womb, I knew you..."
Eighth, no, they are not. Trinity is an English word, as is "Godhead". The word is an attempt to express something that's not perfectly understood or expressable. Same is true for hell, same is true for the concept of God.

 

[Alter2Ego]

Genesis 1:2 God and the Holy Spirit are spoken of (mighty wind-holy spirit is, literally breath of God). 1:26 God say "Let US make Man in our own image". Us refers to the Son. Jesus speaks several times of the Fires of Gehenna. But hell isn't necessarily a roasting pit. Hell is the absence of God. Pure and simple. Secondly, the gods of Egypt and Syria are created things, are they not? The God of the Universe, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are Lords of everything. Next, Jesus said to go forth and baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Again He preached about the fires of Gehenna. Fourthly, the Catholic Church didn't copy anything. While it's true that they took pagan practices at times and made them holy, it's not the same thing. Fifth, hell is not a literal place. It is a state of the soul. Seventh, and it comes from Job somewhere "Before you were in the womb, I knew you..." Eighth, no, they are not. Trinity is an English word, as is "Godhead". The word is an attempt to express something that's not perfectly understood or expressable. Same is true for hell, same is true for the concept of God.

ALTER2EGO -to- ROOT OF JESSE:
Please quote the verses you referenced above and show the forum where each one says anything about "Trinity" and literal hellfire torment by bolding the parts of the verses you are focusing on. All you've done thus far is present a group of verses and told us what you believe they mean. What you've chosen to believe and what the Bible says are two entirely different things. You do realize that; don't you?

 

[toolmanjantzi]

ALTER2EGO -to- ROOT OF JESSE:
Please quote the verses you referenced above and show the forum where each one says anything about "Trinity" and literal hellfire torment by bolding the parts of the verses you are focusing on. All you've done thus far is present a group of verses and told us what you believe they mean. What you've chosen to believe and what the Bible says are two entirely different things. You do realize that; don't you?

Show me the writings of these other gods that are alive and well today.

The word TRINITY is a word to describe a DOCTRINE. Not all believe this DOCTRINE. People like T.D.Jakes does not believe in the TRINITY.

How can he not believe in something like the TRINITY if the word is not in the BIBLE? Because its a DOCTRINAL WORD.

Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. (1 Corinthians 12:3 KJV)

The word Lord is not the same as lord. The word itself is used numerous of times in the BIBLE. (The word BIBLE is not in the Scriptures). But when it's capitalized it means something of greater importance to me. It means, the beginning and the end, the saviour of the believer , and my God the ALMIGHTY.

Let me ask you is JESUS LORD? Can you say with your heart that JESUS is LORD?

If you don't believe JESUS is GOD, you also don't have the HOLY SPIRIT. Because they each acknowledge each other.

 

[Alter2Ego]

Show me the writings of these other gods that are alive and well today.

The word TRINITY is a word to describe a DOCTRINE. Not all believe this DOCTRINE. People like T.D.Jakes does not believe in the TRINITY.

How can he not believe in something like the TRINITY if the word is not in the BIBLE? Because its a DOCTRINAL WORD.

Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. (1 Corinthians 12:3 KJV)

The word Lord is not the same as lord. The word itself is used numerous of times in the BIBLE. (The word BIBLE is not in the Scriptures). But when it's capitalized it means something of greater importance to me. It means, the beginning and the end, the saviour of the believer , and my God the ALMIGHTY.

Let me ask you is JESUS LORD? Can you say with your heart that JESUS is LORD?

If you don't believe JESUS is GOD, you also don't have the HOLY SPIRIT. Because they each acknowledge each other.

ALTER2EGO -to- TOOLMAN JANTZI:
I suggest you go back and read my opening post. I made it abundantly clear therein that the idea of a trinity god existed in pagan religions for centuries before Jesus Christ showed up on the earthly scene. I also stated in my opening post (at Question #3 and Question #4) that the idea of a trinity god is nowhere to be found in God's inspired word, the Judeo-Christian Bible. I further stated in my opening post that the idea of a trinity god was brought into Christendom by the "Christianized" Romans who later came to be known as Roman Catholics. In other words, your above request is moot. The pagan trinities were as fictitious as the "Christianized" version because there are no scriptures in the Bible that support the dogma. Thus, the title of my thread: "Bible Teachings or Traditions of Men?"

 

[toolmanjantzi]

You wouldn't be asking if you believed. Conversations go back and forth. Feel free to explain your beliefs prior to me showing you the answers.

Me trying to explain it to you could be MOOT.

 

[COG2013]

The trinity concept is false. There is God the spirit, and God the manifested physical being who sits on the throne in the Holy City of Heaven. Then there is Jesus, who was human, but posessed the spirit of His father. The spirit that Jesus posessed was the Holy Spirit, the same Holy Spirit that all Christians have. The difference with Jesus is that he had the spirit from birth, and His father began physically speaking to Him at age 10. The Holy Spirit is not a separate individual, but a fragment or piece of God the Spirit.

Hellfire - Hell is a real place, but it was never intended to be eternal and is now empty.

 

[toolmanjantzi]

The trinity concept is false. There is God the spirit, and God the manifested physical being who sits on the throne in the Holy City of Heaven. Then there is Jesus, who was human, but posessed the spirit of His father. The spirit that Jesus posessed was the Holy Spirit, the same Holy Spirit that all Christians have. The difference with Jesus is that he had the spirit from birth, and His father began physically speaking to Him at age 10. The Holy Spirit is not a separate individual, but a fragment or piece of God the Spirit.

Hellfire - Hell is a real place, but it was never intended to be eternal and is now empty.

(staff edit)

Explain to me how your sins were forgiven, how you were redeemed?

Jesus said:

And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. (Matthew 19:17 KJV)

If JESUS WAS NOT GOOD, and HE WAS NOT saying that HE WAS GOD by this verse how was He an acceptable SACRIFICE FOR SIN.

For there is not a just MAN upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not. (Ecclesiastes 7:20 KJV)

Who said this:?

I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. (Revelation 1:8 KJV)

Later in the same Chapter.

And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death. (Revelation 1:17, 18 KJV)

If this was Jesus then why did John say the voice he heard was like the Son of man Rev.1:13.

If this was God? Then when did GOD die?

If it was both please explain exactly where the two are positioned.

Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord , and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am the Lord ; and beside me there is no saviour. I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord , that I am God. (Isaiah 43:10-12 KJV)

 

[Alter2Ego]

Show me the writings of these other gods that are alive and well today.

The word TRINITY is a word to describe a DOCTRINE. Not all believe this DOCTRINE. People like T.D.Jakes does not believe in the TRINITY.

How can he not believe in something like the TRINITY if the word is not in the BIBLE? Because its a DOCTRINAL WORD.

Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. (1 Corinthians 12:3 KJV)

The word Lord is not the same as lord. The word itself is used numerous of times in the BIBLE. (The word BIBLE is not in the Scriptures). But when it's capitalized it means something of greater importance to me. It means, the beginning and the end, the saviour of the believer , and my God the ALMIGHTY.

Let me ask you is JESUS LORD? Can you say with your heart that JESUS is LORD?

If you don't believe JESUS is GOD, you also don't have the HOLY SPIRIT. Because they each acknowledge each other.

ALTER2EGO -to- TOOLMAN JANTZI:
So according to you, the word "Trinity" does not need to appear in the Bible--despite the fact it is the central doctrine of most of the 41,000 denominations within Christendom?

What I find to be even more strange is that there are no scriptures in the God's inspired word, the Judeo-Christian Bible, that support this doctrine.

 

[Alter2Ego]

Let me ask you is JESUS LORD? Can you say with your heart that JESUS is LORD?

If you don't believe JESUS is GOD, you also don't have the HOLY SPIRIT. Because they each acknowledge each other.

ALTER2EGO -to- TOOLMAN JANTZI:
Why don't we let the Bible answer that question, which I bolded above in red.

"{5} For there is one God, and one Mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus, {6} who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all -- this is what is to be witnessed to at its own particular times."(1 Timothy 2:5-6)

So to answer that particular question, yes, Jesus Christ is my lord and savior because he mediates on my behalf with his heavenly Father, Jehovah/YHWH. But he is not in a trinity with the Father, Jehovah.


Since you believe in Christendom's trinity, I invite you to present your best example of at least one scripture from the Bible that proves "Jesus is God also Jehovah." Can you do that?

 

[Alter2Ego]

The trinity concept is false. There is God the spirit, and God the manifested physical being who sits on the throne in the Holy City of Heaven. Then there is Jesus, who was human, but posessed the spirit of His father. The spirit that Jesus posessed was the Holy Spirit, the same Holy Spirit that all Christians have. The difference with Jesus is that he had the spirit from birth, and His father began physically speaking to Him at age 10. The Holy Spirit is not a separate individual, but a fragment or piece of God the Spirit.

Hellfire - Hell is a real place, but it was never intended to be eternal and is now empty.

ALTER2EGO -to- COG2013:
I agree with you that the trinity concept is false. I also agree with some of your other statements, quoted above. But some of the other things you posted above are incorrect. Below are two of your comments that I particularly take issue with. Please present scriptures from God's inspired word, the Judeo-Christian Bible, to prove your following statements:

1. There is God the spirit

2. and God the manifested physical being who sits on the throne in the Holy City of Heaven.

 

[toolmanjantzi]

ALTER2EGO -to- TOOLMAN JANTZI:
Why don't we let the Bible answer that question, which I bolded above in red.

"{5} For there is one God, and one Mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus, {6} who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all -- this is what is to be witnessed to at its own particular times."(1 Timothy 2:5-6)

So to answer that particular question, yes, Jesus Christ is my lord and savior because he mediates on my behalf with his heavenly Father, Jehovah/YHWH. But he is not in a trinity with the Father, Jehovah.


Since you believe in Christendom's trinity, I invite you to present your best example of at least one scripture from the Bible that proves "Jesus is God also Jehovah." Can you do that?

Did you say Jesus is Lord or lord of your life?

 

[COG2013]

You might want to change your handle to LIAR, DECEIVER, or THE SPIRIT OF ANTICHRIST.
(If you would like verses for this also, I can do that)

Explain to me how your sins were forgiven, how you were redeemed?

Jesus said:

And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. (Matthew 19:17 KJV)

If JESUS WAS NOT GOOD, and HE WAS NOT saying that HE WAS GOD by this verse how was He an acceptable SACRIFICE FOR SIN.

For there is not a just MAN upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not. (Ecclesiastes 7:20 KJV)

Who said this:?

I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. (Revelation 1:8 KJV)

Later in the same Chapter.

And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death. (Revelation 1:17, 18 KJV)

If this was Jesus then why did John say the voice he heard was like the Son of man Rev.1:13.

If this was God? Then when did GOD die?

If it was both please explain exactly where the two are positioned.

Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord , and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am the Lord ; and beside me there is no saviour. I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord , that I am God. (Isaiah 43:10-12 KJV)

I've reported this post.

 

[Albion]

ALTER2EGO -to- EVERYONE:
Two of the most basic teachings in Christendom are as follows:

1. THE TRINITY
The teaching that God is split up into three individual persons that are combined into one "Godhead" (Father, Son, and holy ghost/holy spirit). All three of these persons are said to be CO-EQUAL (meaning they have the same power) and CO-ETERNAL (meaning they have always existed at the same time and none of them can die).


2. HELLFIRE
The teaching that God will burn a person's soul in everlasting hellfire for committing wicked deeds. In other words, God will supposedly punish people forever in fiery flames of hell--despite the fact the crimes the persons committed were only done during the persons' brief human lifespan.

A quick reply--

First, the triune nature of God is easily "proven" by reference to the Bible, although the particular wording in the Nicene Creed is open to question.

Second, few people actually think that there is literal fire in Hell, just that there is an everlasting separation from God that causes those who are lost the agony of realizing what they've missed.

 

[hedrick]

There's not necessarily a contradiction between being Biblical and a doctrine of man. The Trinity was a legitimate attempt to explain the implications of the Bible to the Greco-Roman culture. We have to do that kind of thing all the time.

 

[toolmanjantzi]

I've reported this post.

On a Christian forum that follows the word of God.

And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. (1 John 4:3 KJV)

For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision: (Titus 1:10 KJV)

I said in my haste, All men are liars. (Psalms 116:11 KJV)

Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. (1 John 2:22 KJV)

 

[toolmanjantzi]

There's not necessarily a contradiction between being Biblical and a doctrine of man. The Trinity was a legitimate attempt to explain the implications of the Bible to the Greco-Roman culture. We have to do that kind of thing all the time.

I pressed the 'like' button.

 

[Alter2Ego]

ALTER2EGO -to- TOOLMAN JANTZI:
Why don't we let the Bible answer that question, which I bolded above in red.

"{5} For there is one God, and one Mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus, {6} who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all -- this is what is to be witnessed to at its own particular times."(1 Timothy 2:5-6)

So to answer that particular question, yes, Jesus Christ is my lord and savior because he mediates on my behalf with his heavenly Father, Jehovah/YHWH. But he is not in a trinity with the Father, Jehovah.


Since you believe in Christendom's trinity, I invite you to present your best example of at least one scripture from the Bible that proves "Jesus is God also Jehovah." Can you do that?

Did you say Jesus is Lord or lord of your life?

ALTER2EGO -to- TOOLMAN JANTZI:
You are clearly playing a game of semantics. The verses that I quoted above from 1 Timothy 2:5-6 clearly answer that question. But since you want to stand on ceremony, below is yet another scripture from God's inspired word, the Bible, that answers your question.

"That if you confess with your mouth, 'Jesus is Lord,' and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." (Romans 10:9 -- New International Version/NIV)


"That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved." (Romans 10:9 -- King James Version/KJV)


"For if you publicly declare that 'word in your mouth,' that Jesus is Lord, and exercise faith in your heart that God raised him up from the dead, you will be saved." (Romans 10:9 -- New World Translation/NWT)


While plying me with questions about what I believe (and I've answered your questions with scriptures), it's to be noted that you have not presented any Biblical evidence that the trinity doctrine is in the Bible. Please show the forum just one scriptural quotation that shows this doctrine is Bible-based. Use a quotation that you are confident is the best example of trinity.

 

[Albion]

While plying me with questions about what I believe (and I've answered your questions with scriptures), it's to be noted that you have not presented any Biblical evidence that the trinity doctrine is in the Bible. Please show the forum just one scriptural quotation that shows this doctrine is Bible-based. Use a quotation that you are confident is the best example of trinity.

Surely the Jehovah's Witnesses literature itself lists them en route to trying to rebut them. Do you mean to say that you aren't familiar with the MANY verses that you would like us to take the time to post here?

 

[Alter2Ego]

There's not necessarily a contradiction between being Biblical and a doctrine of man. The Trinity was a legitimate attempt to explain the implications of the Bible to the Greco-Roman culture. We have to do that kind of thing all the time.

ALTER2EGO -to- HEDRICK:
It's not "necessarily a contradiction" because you realize there are no scriptures in the Bible to prove the dogma. Nuff said.