"Behold, I COME QUICKLY"! (Revelations 3:11, 22:7,12,20)

[Interplanner]

re all the nations
Actually, Paul said it had reached all nations twice. So we have to adjust our understanding. This begins with noticing what Luke said about the day of Pentecost and 'every nation under heaven.' Pentecost happened to unmake the effect of Babel.

 

[Straightshot]

"Simply sad for you....... And all bound in the chains of "strong delusion" that is pagan catholicism and her harlot christian daughters!"


Are you crying?

Are you an atheist, or maybe a Muslim

I do not know of any other religion that would teach you what you say

If not, what is your source?

 

[Interplanner]

Straight,
perhaps like me, he concludes there is nothing about modern Israel in the NT scenarios of the end of the world like 2 Pet 3. You are forcing lots of references to be about modern Israel, and to say that there will be several geo-political skirmishes in order for the end of the world to happen. In Rom 2-3, God is shown to be the judge of the world. He offers justification in advance of that judgement through Christ. There is nothing in Rom 2-3 that requires certain nations to rise or fall to accomplish his day of judgement.

 

[Straightshot]

hogwash planner

Do you read the Bible .... or a comic book?

 

[A New World]

The gospel did not get preached in all the world and to all the nations in 70AD.

I provided several passages from Scripture that show the gospel in fact went into all the world then the end of the age arrived just as Jesus prophesied. I must rely on the inspired text.

You are placing too much emphasis on what people thought regarding the end of the world and that world view has changed today. However God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow and the words Christ spoken was according to the knowledge and authority of God himself. The disciples like you and me were only fallible human beings who thought according to their world view and that is not necessarily God's view. As I stated before they regarded their world as the be end all, however we NOW have the better insight because we live in times they never even dreamed of and could not know and it was not for them to know and so God allowed his mystery to continue until the everlasting gospel found its way in literally the whole world and the discovered new worlds, that were not even known by the Roman Empire at that time, So to rely on Caesar Augutus and his registry whilst living in the 21st century is a gross mistake in judgement leading to a 100% wrong assumption regarding what Jesus meant by the gospel being preached in all the world.

I mean no offense to you at all my brother. But, the method by which you have chosen to interpret Scripture is at the very least misguided, in my opinion. If we rip the written text from its original meaning and then try to apply it to our modern time we can make it say anything we want. I don't think God inspired men to write the Scriptures only to have every subsequent generation ignore the original meaning and then try to create another meaning that applies to them and their circumstances and situations.

I think this irresponsible method has contributed to the confusion that's apparent within modern Christianity. I have read that the estimated number of denominations within Christianity alone totals between 30,000 and 50,000. How can Scripture be interpreted that many different ways? I think it goes back to an improper method of interpretation.

Again Paul wasn't revealed everything and your assumption is based on the assertion that God revealed all his mysteries to one man whereby he is driving the church at the helm. Paul was on a need to know basis like you and me and he had no idea regarding the world of the 21st century and whether the world will continue that long anyways. Compared to Paul living in those days we have evidence because we live in the 21st century.

If we have a questions concerning Scripture, the only place to find credible and authoritative answers is within Scripture. This principle sounds simple but many refuse to apply it.

Do Paul's words agree with your idea that "Paul wasn't revealed everything?"

Paul: "Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret since the world began but now made manifest, and by the prophetic Scriptures made known to all nations, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, for obedience to the faith--"(Rom. 16:25-26)

The mystery kept secret within the prophetic Scriptures was made manifest to Paul at that time.

You are correct in that it is important to keep the proper context if and only if the mystery of God was revealed entirely to the 1st century church and I am confident that it wasn't because they were not the 11th hour workmen and were only told by the head of the church Christ Jesus what they needed to know to fulfil their duties and obligations but by no stretch of the imagination are they to be taken as having known the entire mysteries of God when it was irrelevant to them to know about the Africanas, Americas, Australas and the rest of the world. God apportions work to who ever he sovereignly wills and we cannot read Paul's writings on the assumption that he knew everything.

Yes, I agree. We must try to keep Scripture in the proper context. Please provide scriptural support for your above assertions so we can discuss them.

Basically as I stated above you are correct in keeping the proper context in mind if the literature that you are reading contains all the answers and is limited to the closed confines of what that particular author writes. In this case revelation stops at Paul and the 1st century apostles and the rest that came afterwards are just robots, I don't think so.

I'm not saying that all who came afterwards are just robots. I'm saying that God sent His Son at just the right time as Paul wrote:
"But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law" (Gal. 4:4)

Jesus came to initiate the last days of the Old Covenant age and to establish the New Covenant age. Those of us who now live under the New Covenant are free in Christ. We are not robots, we who were once dead have been given life in the Son!

I believe you mean well and have read scripture and stayed within the boundaries of the authors knowledge of their world view, but this is wrong and you can not use that formulae.

I also believe you mean well and I count it a privilege to discuss Scripture with you.

I have found that staying within the boundaries of Scripture is the only way to pursue truth. Anything short of that leads to error and confusion as made evident by the many opinions that are completely foreign to Scripture. We must be able to test our ideas by the standard of Scripture.

If we use your methodology then we can go to any book in the old testament and associate our 21st century world view according to their BC world view whilst ignoring the evidence around us that says otherwise, doing so is an error to begin with and if the greatest literary was to follow this formulae he would have the imagination of a five year old.

No, just the opposite. I think the New Testament authors are the inspired commentators of the Old Testament. If we are to understand the OT we must read it through NT eyes.

God bless you brother!

 

[Straightshot]

"I think the New Testament authors are the inspired commentators of the Old Testament. If we to understand the OT we must read it through NT eyes."


The Author of the scriptures from Genesis to Revelation does not agree with you .... He sees it all from the ending to the beginning .... and He tells you not to add or take away

You must also read the NT with OT eyes

Your objective is proprietary and misleading .... a way to shunt the scope to your liking

 

[A New World]

"I think the New Testament authors are the inspired commentators of the Old Testament. If we to understand the OT we must read it through NT eyes."


The Author of the scriptures from Genesis to Revelation does not agree with you .... He sees it all from the ending to the beginning .... and He tells you not to add or take away

You must also read the NT with OT eyes

Your objective is proprietary and misleading .... a way to shunt the scope to your liking

The Scripture itself teaches the superiority of the New Testament over the Old. The Substance which is Christ is superior to the shadow which was the Old Covenant age.

The Old Testament audiences received God's Word through the prophets, the New Testament audiences through Jesus Himself and then His inspired apostles:
"God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds" (Heb. 1:1-2)

It even tells us that the Old Testament writers were unaware of the full scope of their prophetic words.

Here's what Peter wrote:
"Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. To them it was revealed that, not to themselves, but to us they were ministering the things which now have been reported to you through those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven--things which angels desire to look into. (1 Pet. 1:10-12)

The prophets knew the fulfillment of their prophecies was far off. But Peter and his audience knew they were living in the time of fulfillment.

I think it's clear that the New Testament is the reliable divine commentary on the Old Testament. The previous age had less light than what is now provided through Jesus and His apostles.

 

[Interplanner]

hogwash planner

Do you read the Bible .... or a comic book?

As the post says, I read Rom 2-3 and 2 Pet 3, where the coming day of worldwide judgement is explained. It was so clear even your hogs could understand.

 

[Straightshot]

"It was so clear even your hogs could understand."


Oh they do .... so why can't you?

Even my smallest hog understands

You should not be so self demeaning

 

[Berean777]

Firstly just a general comment from what I have quickly skimmed over from the recents posts: I have come to this finding after reflection;

There is the premise that because written scripture is the inspired word of God, therefore THE inspired word ended in the 1st century with those living in those times, hence the END.

This assertion suggests that after the first century writings the faithful followers of Christ that would follow are not inspired and they can not elaborate or BE GIVEN FURTHER revelation by God in addition to those texts of the 1st century writings. This faulty premise then limits God to only working with his first century church whilst most of the populous of the world, that is 97% and approaching towards 100% that came after the first century writings are void of additional revelation, therefore they can neither add or take away what was initially thought by those 1st century writers, who were only human might I emphasise.

This becomes a double standard fallacy argument that most of the previous posters have used to suggest that the preaching/prophesying from the everlasting gospel of Jesus Christ ended with the 1st century workmen. The faulty conclusion that follows from the premise is that the 3rd, 6th, 9th and 11th hour workmen of the harvest of God that encompass the new covenant age have no inspired revelation from God that would otherwise in any way correct the world views of those 1st century writers in sight of all the overwhelming evidence that would suggest otherwise. After all the gospel hadn't found its way to the rest of the world and almost 97% of the populous that would arrive on the scene that have a completely different world view, therefore the posters advocate that God wants all the post 1st century populous that would come on the scene to pretend that they are living in the 1st century.

When you consider that the Holy Ghost is he who reveals and inspires and is in all the faithful born again Christains that have spread the gospel message in that last almost 2000 years, then the Holy Ghost is not limited to revealing further truths.The 1st century writers were not privy to all future events and it was not given for the 1st century to know, in order to accomplish their duties as 1st hour workmen. The Holy Ghost still inspired the 3rd, 6th, 9th and future 11th hour workmen who would stand watch over Christ's church and to guard it from approaching enemy, where they can sound the trumpet call as did the 1st century church who sounded their trumpet call and got out of Jerusalem in time before the Romans came and pillaged and burned the city up.

The questions that begs to be answered is: Will the Holy Ghost give further revelation and prophesy to the overseers of the faith to warn them ahead of time on events related to their time and the players that are active in their time?

Yes/No.

I will answer this frankly that the Holy Ghost has done just that in the 1st century, the 2nd century, the 3rd century right up to today's 21st century and continues to do so, by assigning watchmen to safe guard the flock of Christ, when trouble comes and we know from history that trouble has always come to the believers in one way or another. Christianity has a list of martyrs dating back to the 1st century and continues in its fight against evil that wants to make the world darkness.

Now it no longer becomes a question of whether the 1st century texts are inspired or not, we all know they are inspired by God so the real question that remains is: Are people today falling for the deception that revelation/prophesy ended at the 1st century and that the 1st century texts are to be revered and worshipped as such. Yes, I said correctly worshipped as such, because the proponents of sola scripture completely ignore the works of the Holy Ghost in the 3rd, 6th, 9th and 11th hour workmen who spread the gospel for the last 2000 years and counting. So it is evident that the worship is leaning towards a cult-like following of the 1st century apostles without any regard to the Living Waters/Word who is the Holy Ghost who indwells believers and is ministering all truths to the present believers who are of the body of Christ. This failure by those who advocate sola scripture alone are in real danger of what is coming in the present here and now and are in flat out denial of God's present power in his body of believers that make up his present 21st century church.

This has been a post that inspired me to write because I see the double standard fallacies being committed here and it saddens me to see that people are genuine in what they are saying regarding the gospel of Jesus finding its way in all the world because of the simple fact that those 1st century apostles believed it to be so. The 1st century apostles who were not privy to our world view and state of affairs did not know, so advocates of Sola scripture and the posters who make the same assertions, advocate that we must consider the 1st century apostles claims which are lacking in evidentiary basis and in the face of today's overwhelming evidence that says to the contrary and to side with their error in order to make faulty conclusions arising from these faulty premises.

Wake up and live today for the present power of Christ For Christ is working more so today than he was back in those days, you better believe it other wise you are in denial of his present Kingdom within us.

Luke 17:20-21
And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

In conclusion the question that you need to personally answer for yourselves is:

Do I believe in the present Kingdom and power of God within me or am I looking outwardly towards others for guidance and counselling?

Do not reply to that question just answer it in your own hearts.

Thank you kindly for reading this post and I plead with you to listen to Jesus and from prayer and fasting we can SUP with his Holy Spirit and be given the mysteries of the Kingdom of God, to be as servants who stand as beacon of hope for others living in our current 21st century. Look upward and forward and so we march like soldiers prepared onto spiritual battle.

 

[Berean777]

"God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds" (Heb. 1:1-2)

Can we living in the 21st century not write the following:

God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in the past to the 1st century apostles, has in the 11th hour spoken to us by his Holy Spirit, appointing us heirs with the Son, in which through the Spirit all things were made.

Genesis 1:2-3
And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

 

[A New World]

This assertion suggests that after the first century writings the faithful followers of Christ that would follow are not inspired and they can not elaborate or BE GIVEN FURTHER revelation by God in addition to those texts of the 1st century writings. This faulty premise then limits God to only working with his first century church whilst most of the populous of the world, that is 97% and approaching towards 100% that came after the first century writings are void of additional revelation, therefore they can neither add or take away what was initially thought by those 1st century writers, who were only human might I emphasise.

First I thank you for your passion and for the time you've taken to think through the issues.

I do find it interesting that you apparently think the church, after the first century, has had authors who are inspired by God. Yet, when you offer support for your view you only quote inspired first century writers.

Can you provide a sample of inspired works post first century that you believe are on par with Scripture?

 

[Straightshot]

"This faulty premise then limits God to only working with his first century church"


In fact as time went on in the first few centuries the professing church became more and more corrupted with apostasy and covered over with the traditions of men .... many of which were out for self gain

The true church of the Lord's ecclesia has always been fleeting, small, and self regenerating by revival

Today there is little left of any fragment of pure Christian following on the earth with no revival in sight

Will the Lord find much left when He comes? .... not much .... men have turned His church into a joke with dangerous side effects

Did He know that this would happen ..... He did

He has already said that the narrow road to eternal life will be found by few ... most will take the broad gate to to their own destruction

 

[A New World]

This becomes a double standard fallacy argument that most of the previous posters have used to suggest that the preaching/prophesying from the everlasting gospel of Jesus Christ ended with the 1st century workmen. The faulty conclusion that follows from the premise is that the 3rd, 6th, 9th and 11th hour workmen of the harvest of God that encompass the new covenant age have no inspired revelation from God that would otherwise in any way correct the world views of those 1st century writers in sight of all the overwhelming evidence that would suggest otherwise.

Where in the inspired writings do you find this idea of "the 3rd, 6th, 9th and 11th hour workmen of the harvest of God?"

After all the gospel hadn't found its way to the rest of the world and almost 97% of the populous that would arrive on the scene that have a completely different world view, therefore the posters advocate that God wants all the post 1st century populous that would come on the scene to pretend that they are living in the 1st century.

The context of the New Testament is the Roman world. If you disagree with Scripture please show the reasons why.

You misunderstand my view of the church post first century. The first century was the time of the end of the Old Covenant age. The kingdom of God and New Covenant age was then established.

The kingdom that was established will never end:
"For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Of the increase of His government and peace There will be no end, Upon the throne of David and over His kingdom, To order it and establish it with judgment and justice From that time forward, even forever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this." (Is. 9:6-7)

We are members of the kingdom of God. This kingdom, established at the passing of the OC age, has moved forward and will continue forever.

 

[A New World]

Can we living in the 21st century not write the following:

God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in the past to the 1st century apostles, has in the 11th hour spoken to us by his Holy Spirit, appointing us heirs with the Son, in which through the Spirit all things were made.

Genesis 1:2-3
And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

We can write that but it won't be inspired or authoritative. If we write that, do you really think it will stand the test of time as the Scriptures have?

Again you quote what we both accept as Scripture (Gen. 1:2-3). Where are your modern inspired words?

I mean no disrespect, I'm just curious about modern opinions you place on par with Scripture.

 

[A New World]

Are people today falling for the deception that revelation/prophesy ended at the 1st century and that the 1st century texts are to be revered and worshipped as such.

I think the confusion that exists in the church today is the direct result of denying the sufficiency of the inspired canon of Scripture. If we fail to acknowledge the suficiency of Scripture we build our own traditions based on the imaginations of men.

Yes, I said correctly worshipped as such, because the proponents of sola scripture completely ignore the works of the Holy Ghost in the 3rd, 6th, 9th and 11th hour workmen who spread the gospel for the last 2000 years and counting. So it is evident that the worship is leaning towards a cult-like following of the 1st century apostles without any regard to the Living Waters/Word who is the Holy Ghost who indwells believers and is ministering all truths to the present believers who are of the body of Christ. This failure by those who advocate sola scripture alone are in real danger of what is coming in the present here and now and are in flat out denial of God's present power in his body of believers that make up his present 21st century church.

Where are you seeing the Holy Spirit ministering all truths to the present believers who are of the body of Christ apart from the inspired Scripture?

If we allow the fallible opinions of men to guide us we end up in chaos. We must recognize Scripture as the standard, the only inspired reliable source of truth.

 

[Interplanner]

In Heb 1-2, the whole reason for the signs and wonders about the Gospel was because it was the last message that needed such validation. There is no further message which we need to recieve or about which we need signs and wonders on that level. We don't need them from "prophecy events" because whatever doubt might be cleared up by a "prophecy event" (actually more doubt has been raised than solved) has already been answered in the signs through the apostles.

 

[Interplanner]

Straightshot re 109.
If you can't follow a conversation, don't respond. Thanks.

 

[Berean777]

First I thank you for your passion and for the time you've taken to think through the issues.

I do find it interesting that you apparently think the church, after the first century, has had authors who are inspired by God. Yet, when you offer support for your view you only quote inspired first century writers.

Can you provide a sample of inspired works post first century that you believe are on par with Scripture?

Me and you we don't write books we are preaching the word here online and as watchmen are given insight into today's world we live in by the Holy Ghost so to feed and to keep guard over the flock of Christ.

But before us there has been countless disciples who have spread the gospel. Their writings are written in blood. This is the story of the blood covenant and the evidence is, why we are here talking with one another and have those very first century texts. In the 2nd, 3rd, 4rth and so on centuries countless disciples of Christ had preached and warned the church of their time and were revered and as far as their writings are concerned they have been archived and no one knows their whereabouts and during the troubling times of the Mongols the writings were burnt and all the threats from those wanting to finish off Christianity like the communists. Taking literature with them was the least on their troubling spirits.

The real question that needs to be answered is: why has the first century writings been released and not the other writings?

The current ecclesiastical authority seems to be hiding something and I can not put a finger on it and it has not been revealed to me as to why. I may be totally wrong in thinking this, but on the other hand we have seen counter gospels coming out recently and it seems those that have the recent writings want us to be in the darkness by diverting our attention elsewhere and not to have a chronological understanding of history as far as the writings of the disciples of Christ that trace back all the way to the 1st century. The archives are kept secret and there is something hidden that the 1st century didn't know that later disciples were given in revelation and that is has been secretly hid.

That being said the Lord has revealed to me secrets that are completely contrary to the teaching of what the current ecclesiastical authority teaches in regard to the following:

1) the resurrection of the dead was initiated by Christ in the first century and when we die we are immediately raised without a second coming doctrine requirement.
2) there is no physical earthly second coming of Christ
3) the coming of satan has been omitted and satan is erroneously preached to be a spirit/thought and not a literal person who can manifest in our realm.
4) the end of the world is erroneously tied to a physical appearance of Christ to restore a renewed earthly Kingdom
5) the falling away when satan martyrs the true church and installs a counterfeit spiritual church from the 1260 symbolic days to the 1290 symbolic days is being hid where by the POST 1st century writings could reveal that the counterfeit came into power at a PARTICULAR historical point in time.

Are we living in the 30 symbolic day time period between 1260 and 1290 which is the time of reign of the counterfeit church, hence the 30,0000 different denominations. Are we living in this symbolic time period where the ministers of darkness have infiltrated the church just like jezebels Baal priests infiltrated God's church until he sent Elijah to expose them.

In the new covenant age the restorer is the Holy Ghost and when he sees fit he is going to use his disciples to expose this monstrosity calling itself Christianity when it is not.

The true church has been singled out and persecuted throughout the ages. The interesting question today in the western countries especially is why isn't the church being persecuted as it was previously?

Revelation 2:9-10
I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews(Christian), and are not, but are the synagogue(Church) of Satan. Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

You understand that the above versus affect the true church during tribulation that has accompanied the centuries of martyrdom. The blood flowed before and today it doesn't as much, why?

Scripture writes:

Daniel 12:12
Blessed is the one who waits for and reaches the end of the 1,335 days

Gospel preaching period by the true church: 1260 days (two symbolic witnesses)
Counterfeit church placed in place of the true church: 1260 to 1290
Satan's second coming doctrine: 1290
The remaining elect who are the remnant of the true church: 1290 to 1335.

 

[Berean777]

Where in the inspired writings do you find this idea of "the 3rd, 6th, 9th and 11th hour workmen of the harvest of God?"



The context of the New Testament is the Roman world. If you disagree with Scripture please show the reasons why.

You misunderstand my view of the church post first century. The first century was the time of the end of the Old Covenant age. The kingdom of God and New Covenant age was then established.

The kingdom that was established will never end:
"For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Of the increase of His government and peace There will be no end, Upon the throne of David and over His kingdom, To order it and establish it with judgment and justice From that time forward, even forever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this." (Is. 9:6-7)

We are members of the kingdom of God. This kingdom, established at the passing of the OC age, has moved forward and will continue forever.

The phrase never end is because the members of the kingdom of God continue FROM DEATH TO ETERNAL LIFE as follows:

John 5:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

The conditions of the blood covenant according to Hebrews requires that we pass from death onto life and so there is a continuity from life in the mortal body to life in the eternal heavenly body without a waiting period or delay, hence twinkling if an eye.

That being said as the harvest of wine is nearing the end scripture states at one point in time the harvest becomes dry and not much reaping for Christ's heavenly barn, except the weeds that overrun the world.

In this manner the kingdom is migrating to a better and more permanent place and when the last remaining elect have also been invited through death and onto life through the resurrection of the dead, then the extinction protocol is in place whereby God will wind down creation, right back to the beginning before his Light came when he declared LET THERE BE LIGHT.

So in short the bride must die for all called to Christ must die for they must drink from his bitter cup, then they will inherit what is in store for them and will not suffer death but will immediately in a twinkling of an eye be reunited with the risen Lord in their glorified heavenly bodies.