Baptism is a work.

[Fervent]

Well said. The question was asked . . . why those two? In other words, what was it about Moses and Elijah that qualified them to experience the Transfiguration of Christ?

I think it is fairly well documented throughout the OT and NT that the coming of the Messiah would involve Elijah returning, and Moses confirms that Jesus is the prophet promised in Deut. 18. As someone else noted, traditionally it has been understood that Moses represents the law, and Elijah represents the prophets, so they were the penultimate holy men with Jesus being the ultimate.

 

[Oneofhope]

I think it is fairly well documented throughout the OT and NT that the coming of the Messiah would involve Elijah returning, and Moses confirms that Jesus is the prophet promised in Deut. 18. As someone else noted, traditionally it has been understood that Moses represents the law, and Elijah represents the prophets, so they were the penultimate holy men with Jesus being the ultimate.

I hear what you're saying, but the Spirit within me [seems] to be indicating that Moses and Elijah are more important than what we are offering. I can think of at least one "man of God" who was also referred to as an Angel. I feel that Moses and Elijah were perhaps viewed on such a level . . . viewed by God in that way, that is.

 

[Fervent]

I hear what you're saying, but the Spirit within me [seems] to be indicating that Moses and Elijah are more important than what we are offering. I can think of at least one "man of God" who was also referred to as an Angel. I feel that Moses and Elijah were perhaps viewed on such a level . . . viewed by God in that way, that is.

Angel just means messenger, so it's not necessarily a high status. Moses and Elijah certainly have an exalted status among men, but even if angel were a high status it cannot be a higher status than what we are granted in Christ as children and heirs. So them having the status of angels would be less than an ordinary believer. Then again, the first will be last and the last will be first so who knows what status will look like when the kingdom is fully realized.

 

[Oneofhope]

Angel just means messenger, so it's not necessarily a high status. Moses and Elijah certainly have an exalted status among men, but even if angel were a high status it cannot be a higher status than what we are granted in Christ as children and heirs. So them having the status of angels would be less than an ordinary believer. Then again, the first will be last and the last will be first so who knows what status will look like when the kingdom is fully realized.

Less than an ordinary believer? Okie doke. I wouldn't go that far. The below Words came from God Himself, where He tells Moses that he will be like God to Aaron.

Exodus 4:14-16 NKJV - 14 "So the anger of the LORD was kindled against Moses, and He said: "Is not Aaron the Levite your brother? I know that he can speak well. And look, he is also coming out to meet you. When he sees you, he will be glad in his heart. 15 "Now you shall speak to him and put the words in his mouth. And I will be with your mouth and with his mouth, and I will teach you what you shall do. 16 "So he shall be your spokesman to the people. And he himself shall be as a mouth for you, and you shall be to him as God."

 

[Fervent]

Less than an ordinary believer? Okie doke. I wouldn't go that far. The below Words came from God Himself, where He tells Moses that he will be like God to Aaron.

Exodus 4:14-16 NKJV - 14 "So the anger of the LORD was kindled against Moses, and He said: "Is not Aaron the Levite your brother? I know that he can speak well. And look, he is also coming out to meet you. When he sees you, he will be glad in his heart. 15 "Now you shall speak to him and put the words in his mouth. And I will be with your mouth and with his mouth, and I will teach you what you shall do. 16 "So he shall be your spokesman to the people. And he himself shall be as a mouth for you, and you shall be to him as God."

That wasn't a statement of his status, but if he were only as exalted as angel.

 

[Oneofhope]

That wasn't a statement of his status, but if he were only as exalted as angel.

God also said this about Moses and Pharaoh:

Exodus 7:1 NLT - "Then the LORD said to Moses, "Pay close attention to this. I will make you seem like God to Pharaoh, and your brother, Aaron, will be your prophet."

Who else did God refer to mere humans as God? Jesus.

 

[Fervent]

God also said this about Moses and Pharaoh:

Exodus 7:1 NLT - "Then the LORD said to Moses, "Pay close attention to this. I will make you seem like God to Pharaoh, and your brother, Aaron, will be your prophet."

Who else did God refer to mere humans as God? Jesus.

Whoa there...are you equating Moses with Jesus? Because Moses may have been appointed as god over Pharaoh and Aaron, but it was a designation that came on account of who he represented. Jesus was God by His very nature, not simply an appointed status.

 

[Oneofhope]

Whoa there...are you equating Moses with Jesus? Because Moses may have been appointed as god over Pharaoh and Aaron, but it was a designation that came on account of who he represented. Jesus was God by His very nature, not simply an appointed status.

I realize that you're pretty smart but that you add that you likely have everything all figured out . . . but you're not tracking with me at all. And, it isn't necessary. Unlike many, here, I detest beating the same thing into the ground for days . . . some weeks. So, I am politely exiting this convo.

 

[Fervent]

I realize that you're pretty smart but that you add that you likely have everything all figured out . . . but you're not tracking with me at all. And, it isn't necessary. Unlike many, here, I detest beating the same thing into the ground for days . . . some weeks. So, I am politely exiting this convo.

There are certain essentials that simply cannot be compromised, though I certainly don't believe I have everything figured out. Most things about God are confessed, but not understood.

And I'm not tracking with you, since all I can make of your statement is you are either elevating Moses to Godhood or you are reducing Jesus' Sonship to some form of adoptionism. Either of which would be intolerable, because the unique nature of Jesus is not something that can be compromised on. He is not a "mere human," though He is genuinely human.

 

[Oneofhope]

There are certain essentials that simply cannot be compromised, though I certainly don't believe I have everything figured out. Most things about God are confessed, but not understood.

And I'm not tracking with you, since all I can make of your statement is you are either elevating Moses to Godhood or you are reducing Jesus' Sonship to some form of adoptionism. Either of which would be intolerable, because the unique nature of Jesus is not something that can be compromised on. He is not a "mere human," though He is genuinely human.

"It would be intolerable."

I used to have friends that spoke with such levels of authority.

 

[Fervent]

"It would be intolerable."

I used to have friends that spoke with such levels of authority.

The authority comes is of the historic Christian faith, not myself alone. I simply repeat the confession laid out in the ecumenical councils, which declared that denial of the full deity of Christ is outside of the pale of the Christian faith.

 

[Oneofhope]

The authority comes is of the historic Christian faith, not myself alone. I simply repeat the confession laid out in the ecumenical councils, which declared that denial of the full deity of Christ is outside of the pale of the Christian faith.

I'm going to assume that you're a bot, considering this level of effective communication.

 

[Fervent]

I'm going to assume that you're a bot, considering this level of effective communication.

Cool. I'm not sure whether to take that as a compliment or an insult.

 

[rturner76]

This is some good insight, and I can see why you find it compelling. It's not hard to understand it this way if we put ourselves in Jesus' shoes, though as Jesus is both 100% man and 100% God we can only understand so much of His experience. So we can relate, but I'm not sure we can project how we would react in any given situation into the picture.

True.....having no experience with being 100% God, I can only relate to Jesus' human experience. Having 100% of two very different natures makes it incomprehensible for me to be certain about his motivation for calling up some of the most important OT prophets. This is why I so often go back to "lean not on your own understanding," because there are philosophers, theologians, and preachers who may have a better understanding when it comes to the overall context of the text. Many people tell me something like "all you need is the Bible and the Holy Spirit will guide you to the truth." I feel like teachers and elders are essential when trying to wrap our minds around a being being 100% flawless, omniscient God and 100% fallible man.

Which is certainly a possiblity, and the support aspect is one of the purposes I see in it as well. Though I see the support being a reminder of the purpose of the upcoming events and the glory that lies beyond the cross. To tie in another verse, I suspect what they were there to talk about was the joy that was set before Him rather than the shame that the immediate trial would bring(referencing Hebrews 12:2)

I agree that they likely talked about the purpose of his passion rather than the blow-by-blow prophecy about what he would do on Earth. What is more important is what his finished work accomplishes for us in heaven.

I think there's some wisdom in that. A lot of times in popular Christianity there's a distinct docetic vision of the incarnation that only pays lip service to the fact that He was 100% man. Especially among evangelicals.

That is the crux of the mystery (In Catholicism, anything we don't have a specific answer for we call "a mystery." )

So we must always remember to humble ourselves in viewing how we understand the text as the true meaning of it but that doesn't mean we can't appreciate our own personal insights as legitimate possibilities.

Our own personal interpretation I think is how we find our path to a personal individual relationship with the Triune God. I also believe that there is a place where we need to accept the guidance of someone (or other people as it were). I have the way I see things but I must temper that understanding with the input of someone (or people) that I believe have a better grasp of the context applied to a specific passage or chapter.

 

[Strong in Him]

Jesus was in such anguish and turmoil that he was sweating blood. That lead me to believe that he called upon the most important Old Testament writers to either encourage him or advise him on a strategy that he could employ to get him through what was about to happen.

True.....having no experience with being 100% God, I can only relate to Jesus' human experience. Having 100% of two very different natures makes it incomprehensible for me to be certain about his motivation for calling up some of the most important OT prophets.

1. Again, where does the text say that Jesus called/summoned them to him?
2. Jesus was sweating blood in the Garden of Gethsemane, where it says that an angel came and strengthened him, Luke 22:43. The transfiguration had been some time before.
3. I don't believe Moses and Elijah would have been able to "advise him on a strategy" to help him to get through.
Why would those 2 have been chosen anyway? Elijah didn't die, he was taken up to heaven in a chariot; Moses died but no one knew where he was buried. They couldn't exactly speak from experience when it came to violent, painful death. Tradition says that Hebrews 11:37 refers to Isaiah, who is thought to have been put inside a tree trunk then sawn in half. There were certainly saints and prophets who died painful deaths; why not ask one of them to "advise" the Son of God?

As I said, I think it far more likely that Moses and Elijah represented the law and the prophets, which spoke of Jesus coming and which he came to fulfil. The disciples, being Jewish, would have immediately known what Moses and Elijah represented.
The law and prophets were also Old Covenant, whereas Jesus' blood was of the New Covenant.

 

[Guojing]

Oh, ok. But I still have no idea of what you're going on about.

You said this

I'm not sure of your discussion, but I wanted to ask of what translation you use, as mine doesn't even mention Israel in Isaiah 60:1-5

 

[Oneofhope]

You said this

Yeah. That sounds familiar. My question was about the translation that person used.

 

[rturner76]

1. Again, where does the text say that Jesus called/summoned them to him?

The text does not go into detail as to WHY Moses and Elijah appeared. IMO it is speculation on both our parts to say we know the reason.

3. I don't believe Moses and Elijah would have been able to "advise him on a strategy" to help him to get through.
Why would those 2 have been chosen anyway? Elijah didn't die, he was taken up to heaven in a chariot; Moses died but no one knew where he was buried. They could exactly speak from experience when it came to violent, painful death. Tradition says that Hebrews 11:37 refers to Isaiah, who is thought to have been put inside a tree trunk then sawn in half. There were certainly saints and prophets who died painful deaths; why not ask one of them to "advise" the Son of God?

I also don't think Moses and Elijah could advise him on the Law. If I back peddle a bit I would say if it was not to glean some advice, it was just emotional support. I still do think in my interpretation of what happened that night, Jesus was either encouraged by them (having a 100% human nature) or he was advised by them (for the same reason).

As I said, I think it far more likely that Moses and Elijah represented the law and the prophets, which spoke of Jesus coming and which he came to fulfil. The disciples, being Jewish, would have immediately known what Moses and Elijah represented.
The law and prophets were also Old Covenant, whereas Jesus' blood was of the New Covenant.

So f I am reading this right, they just came to represent the law and the prophets and had nothing to say concerning his passion?

 

[Oneofhope]

I also don't think Moses and Elijah could advise him on the Law.

Definitely not. Jesus, who is God in human flesh, is the author of the Law. It is His set of Laws. Knowing this, this might cause us to look at His interactions with the Law as something, at minimum, interesting. For example, one would think that Jesus would be happy to see animals being sold in the temple for Sacrifice. Was sacrifice part of the Lord's Law? Yet, sacrifice angered Him. Jesus was brought a woman adulterer caught in the act, yet did He call that the woman be stoned to death as His Law required?

So again, knowing that Jesus is the author of the Law helps us to determine what is happening within Scripture as a level deeper than surface.

 

[Strong in Him]

The text does not go into detail as to WHY Moses and Elijah appeared. IMO it is speculation on both our parts to say we know the reason.

I didn't say I know the reason.
They appeared and were talking with Jesus about his death.

I also don't think Moses and Elijah could advise him on the Law.

Who said they were doing that?

If I back peddle a bit I would say if it was not to glean some advice, it was just emotional support.

I think there was more to it than that.
Why Moses and Elijah? Why not David, from whom Jesus was descended? Or Isaiah, who wrote about the suffering servant? At that point, Jesus didn't particularly need emotional support - not as much as he did in the Garden of Gethsemane, or when he was being nailed to the stake.

I still do think in my interpretation of what happened that night, Jesus was either encouraged by them (having a 100% human nature) or he was advised by them (for the same reason).

If that's what you want to think, fine.
The text doesn't support that and I don't see what advice they would be able to give him; but no matter.

So f I am reading this right, they just came to represent the law and the prophets and had nothing to say concerning his passion?

They were talking with him about his passion, so they must have had something to say. But no one knows what.
The thought that came to me when I originally answered this was that Moses and Elijah then disappeared and all the (Jewish) disciples could see, was Jesus. Maybe it's saying that law and prophecies would be fulfilled by his death, and all people would need from then on, would be Jesus?