Atheism, religion and Science

[LittleLambofJesus]

Would any non religions/religions like to discuss the Bible and Science

The Bible isn't a book of science. The Scriptures have very little to teach me about science, because God clearly did not intend to teach us science through his written word. This is not a testament to God's inability to teach us science, but rather to the fact that God has more important spiritual truths to teach us. It's unfortunate when some people delve into error by looking for science in the Bible. They end up deriving scientific facts that are not true at all

Most atheists are indeed intelligent, and some of them were so "smart", many of them went from christianity to atheism in one easy step.
I did a topic on Science and the Bible here for example:

http://www.christianforums.com/t3114...the-bible.html

Is the Bible a book of Science or Redemption. If one comes to God and starts reading the Bible, what are they really wanting knowledge of the most, God or Science?

How does Science relate to the meaning of "Redemption" in the Scriptures

We get knowledge of the "Creator" from reading Scripture, we get knowledge of Science from outside the Bible going to School and classes for those subjects on Science, Biology, History, Language etc.
Would anyone like to discuss this? Thanks.

Isaiah 28:18 Your covenant with death will be annulled, And your agreement with Sheol will not stand; When the overflowing scourge passes through, Then you will be trampled down by it.

Hosea 13:14 "I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death. O Death, I will be your plagues! O Grave, I will be your destruction! Pity is hidden from My eyes.

 

[Livindesert]

There are some things that can be supported by science in most ancient texts. Ancient people deduced what they could about the world. Some people got some things right other things they got wrong.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

There are some things that can be supported by science in most ancient texts. Ancient people deduced what they could about the world. Some people got some things right other things they got wrong.

The Bible can almost be viewed as a book of "parables/riddles/signs" and whatnot.
Below is what an atheist responded to on another thread for example:

http://www.christianforums.com/t3105933-god-jesus-lucifer-satan-the-devil-angels.html

Really, if people could just accept that much of any holy book, and expecially the Bible, was never INTENDED to be taken anything resembling literally, that things were worded as parables and such, things'd be so much simpler.

But then again, this forum would also be much quieter.

Ezekiel 17:2 `Son of man, put forth a riddle, and use a simile unto the house of Israel,

a riddle 02420 chiydah {khee-daw'}
from 02330; TWOT - 616a; n f
AV - riddle 9, dark sayings 3, hard question 2, dark sentence 1,
proverb 1, dark speech 1; 17
1) riddle, difficult question, parable, enigmatic saying or question,
perplexing saying or question
1a) riddle (dark obscure utterance)
1b) riddle, enigma (to be guessed)
1c) perplexing questions (difficult)
1d) double dealing (with 'havin')

 

[LordoftheLeftHand]

How does Science relate to the meaning of "Redemption" in the Scriptures

We get knowledge of the "Creator" from reading Scripture, we get knowledge of Science from outside the Bible going to School and classes for those subjects on Science, Biology, History, Language etc.
Would anyone like to discuss this? Thanks.

Well which knowledge is more important? If you believe you are going to live forever in heaven, driving lollipop cars and wearing cotton candy clothes, then I suppose knowledge of the creator is very important...

LLH

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

How does Science relate to the meaning of "Redemption" in the Scriptures

We get knowledge of the "Creator" from reading Scripture, we get knowledge of Science from outside the Bible going to School and classes for those subjects on Science, Biology, History, Language etc.
Would anyone like to discuss this? Thanks.

Well which knowledge is more important? If you believe you are going to live forever in heaven, driving lollipop cars and wearing cotton candy clothes, then I suppose knowledge of the creator is very important...

LLH

Interesting answer. The Bible is actually "invisible" to you, so it does not exist in your eyes. Another words, if "God" does not exist, the Bible does not exist either.

Kings 6:17 And Elisha prayeth, and saith, `Jehovah, open, I pray Thee, his eyes, and he doth see;' and Jehovah openeth the eyes of the young man, and he seeth, and lo, the hill is full of horses and chariots of fire, round about Elisha.

Isaiah 28:18 Your covenant with death will be annulled, And your agreement with Sheol will not stand; When the overflowing scourge passes through, Then you will be trampled down by it.

Hosea 13:14 "I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death. O Death, I will be your plagues! O Grave, I will be your destruction! Pity is hidden from My eyes.

 

[LordoftheLeftHand]

(from another thread)

...
Btw, has anyone got an opinion on this site?
I put up a topic on Science and the Bible is the reason I ask. Thans.

http://www.godandscience.org/

http://www.godandscience.org/apologe...ocalflood.html

http://www.christianforums.com/t3114...the-bible.html

Is the Bible a book of Science or Redemption. If one comes to God and starts reading the Bible, what are they really wanting knowledge of the most, God or Science?

Funny that site claims that the Holy Spirit aided in the reproduction/translation of the bible so we would not be deceived, but then claims the flood was not global based on a Hebrew translation augment. Make up your mind…


http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/bibleorg.html

The Holy Spirit made sure we would have an accurate copy of God's word so we would not be deceived.

http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/localflood.html

When you read an English translation of the biblical account of the flood, you will undoubtedly notice many words and verses that seem to suggest that the waters covered the all of planet earth.2 However, one should note that today we look at everything from a global perspective, whereas the Bible usually refers to local geography. You may not be able to determine this fact from our English translations, so we will look at the original Hebrew, which is the word of God. The Hebrew words which are translated as "whole earth" or "all the earth" are kol (Strong's number H3605), which means "all," and erets (Strong's number H776), which means "earth," "land," "country," or "ground."3 We don't need to look very far in Genesis (Genesis 2) before we find the Hebrew words kol erets [more follows].

 

[LordoftheLeftHand]

Interesting answer. The Bible is actually "invisible" to you, so it does not exist in your eyes. Another words, if "God" does not exist, the Bible does not exist either.

The bible certainly exists. I've read it, more than once even.

(And please don't claim I read it wrong. I read it the only way I know how. Many claim you have to read the bible to have faith, then claim to read the bible correctly you have to have faith first, a vicious circle. Lets not play blame the victim.)

LLH

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

The bible certainly exists. I've read it, more than once even.

(And please don't claim I read it wrong. I read it the only way I know how. Many claim you have to read the bible to have faith, then claim to read the bible correctly you have to have faith first, a vicious circle. Lets not play blame the victim.)

LLH

Then what is the Bible about if you read it? Surely not science and biology.
Are you sure your eyes were "opened" when reading it?

Kings 6:17 And Elisha prayeth, and saith, `Jehovah, open, I pray Thee, his eyes, and he doth see;' and Jehovah openeth the eyes of the young man, and he seeth, and lo, the hill is full of horses and chariots of fire, round about Elisha.

Isaiah 28:18 Your covenant with death will be annulled, And your agreement with Sheol will not stand; When the overflowing scourge passes through, Then you will be trampled down by it.

Hosea 13:14 "I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death. O Death, I will be your plagues! O Grave, I will be your destruction! Pity is hidden from My eyes.

 

[Hydra009]

Most atheists are indeed intelligent, and some of them were so "smart", many of them went from christianity to atheism in one easy step.

Well, the negation of believing in a God, in a heaven, in a hell, etc is to not believe in a God, not believing in a heaven, not believing in a hell. So it does make sense that a deconversion from Christianity would often be to atheism.

Tell me if I'm reading too much into what you're saying, but you seem to be a tad sarcastic with the "smart" in quotations, implying that such a move is foolish or unitelligent.

http://www.christianforums.com/t3114...the-bible.html

About that thread, I don't quite agree with Beastt on that point. I think that the Bible first and foremost advances claims about the supernatural, and wasn't meant as a science textbook. Even though some Christians actively assert that one's Christian orthodoxy is heavily dependent on accepting literal interpretations of certain portions of the Bible regarding claims about the natural world, I think most Christians agree that such interpretations are not essential in Christianity.

 

[LordoftheLeftHand]

Then what is the Bible about if you read it? Surely not science and biology.
Are you sure your eyes were "opened" when reading it?

No I didn't see any science or biology. I saw a lot of Jewish fairy tales, mixed in with some Jewish history.

LLH

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

About that thread, I don't quite agree with Beastt on that point. I think that the Bible first and foremost advances claims about the supernatural, and wasn't meant as a science textbook. Even though some Christians actively assert that one's Christian orthodoxy is heavily dependent on accepting literal interpretations of certain portions of the Bible regarding claims about the natural world, I think most Christians agree that such interpretations are not essential in Christianity.

No I didn't see any science or biology. I saw a lot of Jewish fairy tales, mixed in with some Jewish history.
LLH

Don't forget Hebrew, such as Abraham was.

http://users.aristotle.net/~bhuie/lazarus.htm

LUKE 16:27 "Then he said, 'I beg you therefore, father[Abraham], that you would send him to my father's house, 28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.'" (NKJV)

The fact that the rich man has five brothers is a vital clue to his true symbolic identity. Judah was the son of Jacob through Leah (Gen. 29:35). He had five full-blooded brothers: Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Issachar, and Zebulun (Gen. 35:23).

 

[Hydra009]

Right. Some verses have symbolic value which can be lost in a straight literal interpretation.

Another example would be in the Book of Jonah where the "great fish" swallows Jonah for three days as a metaphor for Babylonian captivity.

 

[arunma]

Would any non religions/religions like to discuss the Bible and Science
Most atheists are indeed intelligent, and some of them were so "smart", many of them went from christianity to atheism in one easy step.
I did a topic on Science and the Bible here for example:

http://www.christianforums.com/t3114...the-bible.html

Is the Bible a book of Science or Redemption. If one comes to God and starts reading the Bible, what are they really wanting knowledge of the most, God or Science?

How does Science relate to the meaning of "Redemption" in the Scriptures

We get knowledge of the "Creator" from reading Scripture, we get knowledge of Science from outside the Bible going to School and classes for those subjects on Science, Biology, History, Language etc.
Would anyone like to discuss this? Thanks.

Isaiah 28:18 Your covenant with death will be annulled, And your agreement with Sheol will not stand; When the overflowing scourge passes through, Then you will be trampled down by it.

Hosea 13:14 "I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death. O Death, I will be your plagues! O Grave, I will be your destruction! Pity is hidden from My eyes.

I'll take the blame for the quote you included in the OP, and I stand by it. The primary function of the Bible is not to give us scientific knowledge, but to teach us about redemption through the only Savior and Son of God. Now, the Bible does teach some history. For example, the creation account ought to be taken as history (to whatever extent you wish, depending on which creation theory you subscribe to), as should the history of the nation of Israel and the memoirs of the Apostles (that is, the Gospel). But neither Paul nor Matthew nor Isaiah sought to teach us about science when they wrote the Bible, and we should not assume otherwise.

 

[peepnklown]

I believe arunma might have ignored me but, we’ll see.

The primary function of the Bible is not to give us scientific knowledge, but to teach us about redemption through the only Savior and Son of God.

Well…the Hebrew bible (Old Testament, LXX) doesn’t teach that so may be you should only include the Greek scriptures.

Now, the Bible does teach some history.

So, how do you come to that conclusion in context to the creation account?
Do you rely on faith or evidence? This could also apply to the nation of Israel and the memoirs of the Apostles.

But neither Paul nor Matthew nor Isaiah sought to teach us about science when they wrote the Bible

We agree on something.

 

[arunma]

Well…the Hebrew bible (Old Testament, LXX) doesn’t teach that so may be you should only include the Greek scriptures.

I especially include the Old Testament. In fact, it teaches us as much about the Jesus Christ the Son of God as the New Testament does. But you knew I was going to say that.

So, how do you come to that conclusion in context to the creation account?
Do you rely on faith or evidence? This could also apply to the nation of Israel and the memoirs of the Apostles.

It might be possible to take the creation account as a figurative story, except that it is recounted elsewhere in the Bible, such as the books of the Chronicles and the epistles of Paul. However, I ultimately make no attempt to look for evidence of the truth of creation account. It isn't an issue of any major concern to me.

We agree on something.

It appears we have proof of the existence of God.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

But neither Paul nor Matthew nor Isaiah sought to teach us about science when they wrote the Bible

So, how do you come to that conclusion in context to the creation account?
Do you rely on faith or evidence? This could also apply to the nation of Israel and the memoirs of the Apostles.

I agree. Three fourths of the Bible concerns Israel/Judah/Jerusalem.
The muslims conveniently leave out mention of God restoring the "kingdom" to Israel in their Qur'an for some reason.

Acts 1:6 Therefore, when they had come together, they asked Him, saying, "Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?" 7 And He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority.[SIZE=+2]

[/SIZE]The ancient Jews/Israelites viewed the Temple/Sanctuary as sort of a “heavens & earth” type. We have evidence of this from the writings of a first century Jewish historian named Josephus. Josephus says:
“However, this proportion of the measures of the tabernacle proved to be an imitation of the system of the world; for that third part thereof which was within the four pillars, to which the priests were not admitted, is, as it were, a heaven peculiar to God. But the space of the twenty cubits, is, as it were, sea and land, on which men live, and so this part is peculiar to the priests only.” – Antiquities Book III, Chapter 6.4 (see also Ant III 7.7)

http://www.christianforums.com/t3119306-i-am-blind-i-cant-see.html

2 kings 6:17: "And Elisha prayeth, and saith, `Jehovah, OPEN, I pray Thee, HIS EYES, and he doth see;' and Jehovah openeth the eyes of the young man, and he seeth, and lo, the hill is full of horses and chariots of fire, round about Elisha.

Mark 8:22 And he cometh to Bethsaida, and they bring to him one blind, and call upon him that he may touch him, 23 and having taken the hand of the Blind Man, he led him forth without the village, and having spit on his eyes, having put [his] hands on him, he was questioning him if he doth behold anything: 24 and he, having looked up, said, `I behold men, as I see trees, walking.' 25 Afterwards again he put [his] hands on his eyes, and made him look up, and he was Restored, and discerned all things clearly,

 

[vedickings]

Would any non religions/religions like to discuss the Bible and Science
Most atheists are indeed intelligent, and some of them were so "smart", many of them went from christianity to atheism in one easy step.
I did a topic on Science and the Bible here for example:

http://www.christianforums.com/t3114...the-bible.html

Is the Bible a book of Science or Redemption. If one comes to God and starts reading the Bible, what are they really wanting knowledge of the most, God or Science?

How does Science relate to the meaning of "Redemption" in the Scriptures

We get knowledge of the "Creator" from reading Scripture, we get knowledge of Science from outside the Bible going to School and classes for those subjects on Science, Biology, History, Language etc.
Would anyone like to discuss this? Thanks.

Isaiah 28:18 Your covenant with death will be annulled, And your agreement with Sheol will not stand; When the overflowing scourge passes through, Then you will be trampled down by it.

Hosea 13:14 "I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death. O Death, I will be your plagues! O Grave, I will be your destruction! Pity is hidden from My eyes.

As far as religion and science goes, Hinduism is a religion of science, otherwise Hinduism would not exist.

Hinduism is a religion of science on all levels, and not just physical, such as physical, Subtle and casual, etc.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

As far as religion and science goes, Hinduism is a religion of science, otherwise Hinduism would not exist.

Hinduism is a religion of science on all levels, and not just physical, such as physical, Subtle and casual, etc.

Couldn't we say that even those of other "religions" have also had their major share of science discoveries and new innovations?
No one has yet "parted" the seas yet that I know of up to now.

The Bible afterall is about Abraham and then the Nation of Israel, so it is more of an Abrahamic religious Book than say Hindu/Budahist?

(Young) Exodus 14:13 And Moses saith unto the people, `Fear not, station yourselves, and see the salvation of Jehovah, which He doth for you to-day; for, as ye have seen the Egyptians to-day, ye add no more to see them--to the age; .......

 

[vedickings]

Couldn't we say that even those of other "religions" have also had their major share of science discoveries and new innovations?
No one has yet "parted" the seas yet that I know of up to now.

The Bible afterall is about Abraham and then the Nation of Israel, so it is more of an Abrahamic religious Book than say Hindu/Budahist?

(Young) Exodus 14:13 And Moses saith unto the people, `Fear not, station yourselves, and see the salvation of Jehovah, which He doth for you to-day; for, as ye have seen the Egyptians to-day, ye add no more to see them--to the age; .......

Are you saying Hinduism and Buddhism don't count in this debate?

 

[arunma]

As far as religion and science goes, Hinduism is a religion of science, otherwise Hinduism would not exist.

Hinduism is a religion of science on all levels, and not just physical, such as physical, Subtle and casual, etc.

You'll have to forgive me for playing the skeptic to this claim. The problem with Hinduism -- or any other religion for that matter -- claiming to be a science is that it does not follow the scientific method, nor does it have any predictive power. Hinduism cannot be used to forecast the weather, it cannot send anyone to the moon, and it has yet to offer a cure for any disease (BTW: if scientists use ancient religious texts to advance medical science, scientific credit still does not go to the religious text). I'm not aware of Hinduism being used in any predictive capacity.

I could write an explanation of the scientific method, and then explain how Hinduism does not conform to the standards of scientific rigor. But perhaps I'll illustrate my point with a more fundamental question. If Hinduism (or some other religion of your choice) constitutes a science, then where are all of its scientifically verifiable predictions?