"Assurance"

[~Anastasia~]

I hope you will all bear with me if I ask a question here? I'm sure I'm not going to use the right words, but I hope I can make myself understood.

I know the Orthodox do not view salvation as a one-time event, for all time. I understand (somewhat) the concept of "I have been saved, I am being saved, I will one day be saved".

And I agree that we need to persevere in our faith. I'm in the process of re-examing all the things I have been taught and trying to find what is true, and one thing I most definitely have "tossed out" is the idea that we can say a prayer then go on to live whatever kind of sinful life we like if we want, and nothing is going to keep us out of heaven even if we decide we don't want to go there.

Paul talks entirely too much about running the race, staying in the faith, and so on. I do believe we need to persevere.

But I wonder what the Orthodox concept is of how you view your salvation today?

If one were to die soon after coming to faith and being baptized, will they be saved? What determines if they are or not?

Are a certain amount of good deeds necessary? Does unconfessed sin get in the way of salvation? If so, any kind of sin, or just certain ones? Is it something else that means one is saved, or not? Is having saving faith enough?

I guess it's "assurance" I'm wondering about, but not in the usual theological sense. I feel a certain confidence because that's what I've been taught, but also because I know my heart is toward God, I know the Holy Spirit is working in me. I suppose that's all I really base it on. I am driven to study out His truth, and walking in the Spirit helps me to resist the desires of the flesh, but I don't rely on those in my present way of thinking. But doesn't the Holy Spirit testify with our spirit as well that we are His?

I am wondering what the Orthodox view is on this, because I have not yet been able to understand it.

Thanks for any answers.

(I thought I'd put this one here instead of in GT, because my recent inquiries about Orthodox theology stirred up more debate even than asking about Catholic beliefs did.)

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

The one thing I had to toss over my shoulder like an old Coke can was the idea of "systems" with Christianity when I became Orthodox. Calvinists have TULIP system, Catholics have their works-driven system where you focus on dying not in a state of mortal since but a state of grace, Lutherans have their solas, on and on. Orthodoxy is system-less.

We walk in Christ and stay in the marathon as you said. You have the sacramental life to make you well, you worship to draw near. You pray to draw near, You ask the saints to help you. You hope in Christ. You empty yourself of yourself and try to fill it with the Divinity. You fast, you hope.

In the end it is Christ who judges us. Orthodoxy doesn't teach you have a quota of works to prove yourself and it doesn't teach that faith alone is enough. It teaches to pray, fast, worship, confess, love, draw near, try to do good works, forgive your enemies, and trust in Christ. We are sick sinners who need the Divine Physician.

We draw near to the conqueror of death Himself, the Lord Jesus Christ with the Holy Spirit and His Heavenly Father.

No system. No quotas. Just hope and sacraments, prayer and love.

You get chrismated and start the journey and you just have to realize you're the chief sinner.

The West has been enamored and fascinated with systems and only the West divided up the whole "either-or" stuff with faith vs. works. For the Orthodox the "either-or" thing doesn't work very well.

I hope you will all bear with me if I ask a question here? I'm sure I'm not going to use the right words, but I hope I can make myself understood.

I know the Orthodox do not view salvation as a one-time event, for all time. I understand (somewhat) the concept of "I have been saved, I am being saved, I will one day be saved".

And I agree that we need to persevere in our faith. I'm in the process of re-examing all the things I have been taught and trying to find what is true, and one thing I most definitely have "tossed out" is the idea that we can say a prayer then go on to live whatever kind of sinful life we like if we want, and nothing is going to keep us out of heaven even if we decide we don't want to go there.

Paul talks entirely too much about running the race, staying in the faith, and so on. I do believe we need to persevere.

But I wonder what the Orthodox concept is of how you view your salvation today?

If one were to die soon after coming to faith and being baptized, will they be saved? What determines if they are or not?

Are a certain amount of good deeds necessary? Does unconfessed sin get in the way of salvation? If so, any kind of sin, or just certain ones? Is it something else that means one is saved, or not? Is having saving faith enough?

I guess it's "assurance" I'm wondering about, but not in the usual theological sense. I feel a certain confidence because that's what I've been taught, but also because I know my heart is toward God, I know the Holy Spirit is working in me. I suppose that's all I really base it on. I am driven to study out His truth, and walking in the Spirit helps me to resist the desires of the flesh, but I don't rely on those in my present way of thinking. But doesn't the Holy Spirit testify with our spirit as well that we are His?

I am wondering what the Orthodox view is on this, because I have not yet been able to understand it.

Thanks for any answers.

(I thought I'd put this one here instead of in GT, because my recent inquiries about Orthodox theology stirred up more debate even than asking about Catholic beliefs did.)

 

[~Anastasia~]

Thank you for the reply.

I am told often that it is a different way of thinking, and a different way of looking at things. In some ways it is difficult to comprehend.

What you say falls in line with Paul's many exhortations.

I'm reminded of several times when the questions would be asked, "What must I do to be saved?" and the answer is usually "Believe, confess, be baptized" or some combination thereof.

Is there an answer then for these simple instructions, that would seem almost to echo "Say a prayer then live however you want"? I don't believe one can do that, but I wonder ... are those instructions intended to be only the beginning of what one does to be saved?

Thank you again, so much, for the answer. Somehow it doesn't surprise me at all, and just seems to fall in place with everything else I hear. Thanks again.

 

[buzuxi02]

Is there an answer then for these simple instructions, that would seem almost to echo "Say a prayer then live however you want"? I don't believe one can do that, but I wonder ... are those instructions intended to be only the beginning of what one does to be saved?

"For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have taste the word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame."(Hebrews 6.4-6)


"And you have persevered and have patience, and have labored for My namesake and have not become weary. Nevertheless I have this against you, that you have left your first love. Remember therefore from where you have fallen, repent and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place-unless you repent." (Rev 2.3-5)


"Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over which the Holy Spirit have made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which He has purchased with His own blood. For I know this, that after my departing, shall grevious wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Also of your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things to draw away disciples after them." (Acts 20.28-30)


As you can see there is no such thing as once saved always saved, nor is there anything to suggest Christianity is basically an insurance policy that covers any and all willfull transgressions. The word disciple comes from the word; 'discipline'. Its also greek for 'teachings' (Daskalia)). Obviously then there would be no need to call the followers of Christ disciples if you are allowed to do whatever you want.

What one must do to be saved maybe a bit different than other congregations. Orthodoxy isn't really into minimalism. Meaning we don't really endorse any policy that says, 'whats the minimal I can do and still make it to heaven". We hope each individual would say, "I want more".

 

[~Anastasia~]

What one must do to be saved maybe a bit different than other congregations. Orthodoxy isn't really into minimalism. Meaning we don't really endorse any policy that says, 'whats the minimal I can do and still make it to heaven". We hope each individual would say, "I want more".

Thank you so much for the reply. And yes, I consider the passage in Hebrews to be most sobering.

I am in no way thinking of "what's the least I can do and still make it" ... that has just never been my mindset. I have much more often been inclined to seek more, though I have not always been perfect in that.

I think my problem is, that in trying to understand the Orthodox point of view, I am imagining the following scenario, and I may be wrong, but I am having a hard time accepting the idea.

I am imagining one having saving faith/justification/etc. Having a love for God born in the heart. Seeking Him, studying His Word, spending time in prayer, wanting communion with His corporate Body. Confessing sins. Walking in the Spirit, such that one's desire to sin is lessened considerably. Developing love in one's heart for others, and generally letting the love guide one's words and actions. Worshipping God in one's heart spontaneously at various times in a day. And so on.

And yet, even so, thinking that one may die and be judged as being not in Him? Not having turned away, not having chosen conscious sin without repenting, nor continuing to live in sin. Not having been a hypocrite in any of the above. And yet ... falling short and being turned away?

It is very difficult for me to consider a God who is love, such that He was willing to die for us, and yet who would reject His followers based on one knows not what, which is not even warned of in His Word, nor warned in our spirits.

Am I looking at it in a wrong way? That's what I'm trying to understand.

On the one hand, I don't mean to presume upon the God of the universe. On the other, I have experienced Him as love, and it is hard to reconcile what I know of Him with the way I am understanding Orthodox to view salvation?

In thinking about it some more this morning, I have to think - was Paul the only one who spoke to us this way? I have also often wondered why he spoke so much about struggling with sin, when the Scriptures confirm what I have found to be true, that those who walk in the Spirit do not satisfy the lusts of the flesh. I do NOT at ALL mean to imply that I do not sin - in fact, as time goes by, I am aware of finer and finer distinctions of sin, such that things I once never knew were sin, are sin for me now. And no, I am certainly not perfect. I mean only to say that where I once was tempted with a wide range of gross sins when I was of the world, most all of that no longer has any appeal and is not a struggle for me.

But I have wondered if Paul struggled particularly for some reason, and was he the only one who warned us thus?

John's attitude seems to be different, and I identify well with John.

Please, I do not mean to pick and choose, and to make Scripture suit me. I am only trying to understand the Orthodox point of view, and I'm not sure if I've got it right or not?

Thank you so much for your replies.

 

[Fotina]

Orthodoxy leaves all judgment to God. God is the Lord. We pray Lord have mercy constantly and trust in God. God is the righteous Judge. Ours is to run the race. Truly, Holy Orthodoxy has everything needful for salvation in Christ.

St Silouan the Athonite: "Keep your mind in hell, but despair not."

 

[~Anastasia~]

Orthodoxy leaves all judgment to God. God is the Lord. We pray Lord have mercy constantly and trust in God. God is the righteous Judge. Ours is to run the race. Truly, Holy Orthodoxy has everything needful for salvation in Christ.

St Silouan the Athonite: "Keep your mind in hell, but despair not."

Thank you. Perhaps I am seeing it as too fearful, too despairing? I'm not sure.

 

[Kristos]

The Lord will have mercy on whom He has mercy and His mercy is bountiful - as far as the East is from the West.

 

[Fotina]

Thank you. Perhaps I am seeing it as too fearful, too despairing? I'm not sure.

God is the final judge, not me. I do not decide my eternal fate or anyone else's. "Do not judge", as Christ commanded. We pray: "Lord, Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy upon me a sinner."

 

[~Anastasia~]

Would it be right to say that the outcome of frequently seeking mercy, while not presuming against God's right to judge

- in combination leads one to humility and trusting dependence on Christ?

 

[Fotina]

It may, but not a guarantee. Again, God alone will judge rightly. Lord, have mercy.

 

[Knee V]

I am married to my wife. Our wedding was not the beginning of our relationship, but it is a point in time that I can look back on as the beginning of my marriage. In 3 1/2 years neither of us has walked out on the other. Tomorrow morning when I wake up, we will still be married. It is possible that some day in the future we may be separated or divorced, but I know that I am not going anywhere and that she is not going anywhere. For our marriage to end, a lot of work has to go into that, but it is not something that will happen in a moment because one of us sins against the other. It would take a lot of neglect to tear apart the marriage.

With Christ it is much the same. I can look back on my baptism as the point in time when my "marriage" to Him began. And since He is infinitely more faithful than any of us, I am not worried about Him walking out on me. If I neglect it, I could wander off and be estranged. But just as marriages don't end just because we sin or are not as diligent as we should be, I am not worried about waking up one day to discover that Christ is not with me. But, I need to remain aware that I'd I neglect Him, I could cause myself to lose Him, and that that is a real possibility, if I am not watchful.

 

[Joseph Hazen]

I am imagining one having saving faith/justification/etc. Having a love for God born in the heart. Seeking Him, studying His Word, spending time in prayer, wanting communion with His corporate Body. Confessing sins. Walking in the Spirit, such that one's desire to sin is lessened considerably. Developing love in one's heart for others, and generally letting the love guide one's words and actions. Worshipping God in one's heart spontaneously at various times in a day. And so on.

And yet, even so, thinking that one may die and be judged as being not in Him? Not having turned away, not having chosen conscious sin without repenting, nor continuing to live in sin. Not having been a hypocrite in any of the above. And yet ... falling short and being turned away?

In all things we trust in God, and there's a good reason. Orthodoxy made me confront the reality of God's mercy, His compassion, and His love. It is unconquerable and unlimited. Now, trying to grasp that, do we feel we need to worry too much about someone who really sincerely in action and intention did their best? I swat my son when he does something wrong, but there is nothing he could do that would make me throw him out of the house at this age. He's just almost a year old, he's trying his best. Sincerely.

In the same way we trust to God's judgements. His judgement is always just and merciful.

It might also help if you haven't looked at the Orthodox ideas of Heaven and hell to read up on them. That might help you see your question in a different light. If one is seeking to constantly conform themselves to Love, and to love Him, in His Presence they're not going to suddenly be horrified unless they were secretly or unknowingly worshipping something else. That's why introspection, examinations of conscience, Confession, and other issues where we judge ourselves is so common, and why we pray for God's mercy on everything.

In thinking about it some more this morning, I have to think - was Paul the only one who spoke to us this way? I have also often wondered why he spoke so much about struggling with sin, when the Scriptures confirm what I have found to be true, that those who walk in the Spirit do not satisfy the lusts of the flesh. I do NOT at ALL mean to imply that I do not sin - in fact, as time goes by, I am aware of finer and finer distinctions of sin, such that things I once never knew were sin, are sin for me now. And no, I am certainly not perfect. I mean only to say that where I once was tempted with a wide range of gross sins when I was of the world, most all of that no longer has any appeal and is not a struggle for me.

Everyone's sins are different. A great saint may have struggled every day against a temptation that is nothing for you. Sanctity comes not from having fewer sins, or progressing through a hierarchy of sins, but through facing one's own sins and in so doing moving towards Christ, all with His help. We have an expression in Orthodoxy: Keep your eyes on your own plate. It started as an admonition to not judge how others are keeping the fasts, but it also means that your salvation is your business, and the issues others are struggling with aren't any of our business (unless they ask us for help).

That's not supposed to sound abrupt or anything, I'm just trying to explain. You've not asked anything offensive.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Beautifully-done explanation, Rob. Love it!

In all things we trust in God, and there's a good reason. Orthodoxy made me confront the reality of God's mercy, His compassion, and His love. It is unconquerable and unlimited. Now, trying to grasp that, do we feel we need to worry too much about someone who really sincerely in action and intention did their best? I swat my son when he does something wrong, but there is nothing he could do that would make me throw him out of the house at this age. He's just almost a year old, he's trying his best. Sincerely.

In the same way we trust to God's judgements. His judgement is always just and merciful.

It might also help if you haven't looked at the Orthodox ideas of Heaven and hell to read up on them. That might help you see your question in a different light. If one is seeking to constantly conform themselves to Love, and to love Him, in His Presence they're not going to suddenly be horrified unless they were secretly or unknowingly worshipping something else. That's why introspection, examinations of conscience, Confession, and other issues where we judge ourselves is so common, and why we pray for God's mercy on everything.



Everyone's sins are different. A great saint may have struggled every day against a temptation that is nothing for you. Sanctity comes not from having fewer sins, or progressing through a hierarchy of sins, but through facing one's own sins and in so doing moving towards Christ, all with His help. We have an expression in Orthodoxy: Keep your eyes on your own plate. It started as an admonition to not judge how others are keeping the fasts, but it also means that your salvation is your business, and the issues others are struggling with aren't any of our business (unless they ask us for help).

That's not supposed to sound abrupt or anything, I'm just trying to explain. You've not asked anything offensive.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Thank you so much.

I may have been misunderstanding, but I was reading that people seemed to have no surety that they were actually in Him at the moment, or that they might be judged as having fallen short, even while doing their best.

I do understand that we must not neglect, and that can be easy to slip into. I understand we must be diligent.

But if we ARE being diligent, and we love God ... I can't read John and not think of myself as a child of God, and as such, as you said, you don't just toss a child out for a small mistake.

I hope I understand better. If there is no sense of being a child of God, then that would be a serious problem for me.

Thank you all so much.

 

[buzuxi02]

We are all children of God, thats why the Lord's Prayer begins with "Our Father". In the parable of the prodigal son , it is the child that decides to leave. It is we who sever that relationship but God rejoices when we come back home.

 

[Joseph Hazen]

You may have gotten that impression because most Orthodox will not answer "Where would you go if you died right now?" with "Heaven" right away. Most would say "I'd hope to go to Heaven" or even "I hope to enjoy the presence of God." To presume your own salvation is rather arrogant sounding. Now, all three answers might ultimately mean "I hope in God's mercy and trust in His compassion and love" but, that's just how we say it. There is an element of uncertainty. That is meant to drive you to greater devotion and communion with Christ.

 

[prodromos]

In Orthodoxy, the answers aren't just different, we don't even ask the same questions

 

[truefiction1]

It's trusting in God, willing and actively changing for the better that is salvation for our kind. Even silly atheistic psychologists understand this much (the willing and changing part that is). Assurance is ours when we trust God. But we kind of need to know Him in order to be able to trust Him. That's where the continued willing and acting come into play. As we are changing we are ourselves changing into God.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Thanks for the explanations. I can understand what you mean by an element of uncertainty. If you don't accept osas there is always some element of uncertainty.

I wasn't meaning to compare myself to anyone else. What I meant was more to compare the way Paul writes and how he seems so unsure with the way John writes, and he seems to offer many reassurances - as long as we walk in the light and remain in Christ.

They both make sense to me.

I'm not sure why the Orthodox view has seemed as though the hope of salvation was so tenuous. I do agree we need to maintain our walk, but if we know we are in Him, and we know we walk in the light, and we know we are His children, and we strive to be more and more like Him, then other than making sure we stay the course, I can't see the reason for a great fear looming, so I wanted to be sure I understood if that was what was meant.

Thank you all so much. I may not be expressing myself that well - not feeling well today. But I wanted very much to thank you all.