"Assurance"

[ArmyMatt]

I may have been misunderstanding, but I was reading that people seemed to have no surety that they were actually in Him at the moment, or that they might be judged as having fallen short, even while doing their best.

even if that were true for someone, their heart is inclining toward Christ because, they were doing their best. God's love can cover anything that we mess up on. so even if they fall short, He is faithful and accepts the first as the last, even those who slip up at the 11th hour.

 

[truefiction1]

I'm not sure why the Orthodox view has seemed as though the hope of salvation was so tenuous. I do agree we need to maintain our walk, but if we know we are in Him, and we know we walk in the light, and we know we are His children, and we strive to be more and more like Him, then other than making sure we stay the course, I can't see the reason for a great fear looming, so I wanted to be sure I understood if that was what was meant.

Thank you all so much. I may not be expressing myself that well - not feeling well today. But I wanted very much to thank you all.

The strength of the Orthodox view is in its emphasis on personal responsibility for making the right choices in the present and extending into the future. This approach is the only one that will cause spiritual growth. What's not growing is dying or dead.

 

[Joseph Hazen]

I'm not sure why the Orthodox view has seemed as though the hope of salvation was so tenuous.

I think a lot of people feel this way because it's not man-centered. It requires a very scary, very real, trust on God. Even if we think we're in agreement with that, when we're confronted with it it can appear to be very tenuous. Humans don't like things out of our hands, and from this perspective it doesn't, ultimately, matter what you know or what you've said or what you've done - it is all, always, irrevocably, out of your hands an in God's. We have a hard time accepting that.

When you do though it's very freeing, humbling, and somehow inspiring.

 

[~Anastasia~]

I think a lot of people feel this way because it's not man-centered. It requires a very scary, very real, trust on God. Even if we think we're in agreement with that, when we're confronted with it it can appear to be very tenuous. Humans don't like things out of our hands, and from this perspective it doesn't, ultimately, matter what you know or what you've said or what you've done - it is all, always, irrevocably, out of your hands an in God's. We have a hard time accepting that.

When you do though it's very freeing, humbling, and somehow inspiring.

Yes ... The humbling part I can certainly understand.

I have thought in a similar way, not the same, but some aspects. I long ago decided it was in God's hands, and there is a dependence and trust there. I do recognize it as humbling.

I hope I have not been presuming on His mercy. But there is a relational aspect that gives me a lot of reason to hope. That's what I couldn't understand - maybe it's just the way Orthodox will express it, but I wasn't seeing statements that expressed a confidence in at least the relationship. I was often seeing what I interpreted to be more of an "I hope I'm good enough in the end" and if that is taken in a wrong way, I can't identify with it. I think I was misunderstanding and taking things in a wrong way.

I think maybe what you are expressing might even be a bit more emphasis on that trust that I know, which would surprise me. I'm trying to decide if that's possible. I thought that was my attitude already. I will need to think about this some more.

Thank you very much.

I have not read anything on heaven and hell from an Orthodox standpoint, so I will look for that. Thank you again.

 

[~Anastasia~]

even if that were true for someone, their heart is inclining toward Christ because, they were doing their best. God's love can cover anything that we mess up on. so even if they fall short, He is faithful and accepts the first as the last, even those who slip up at the 11th hour.

Thank you. I would never want to presume, and of course God will have mercy on whom He will have mercy. But I just can't see God as one who is watching and waiting for a slip-up so that He can blot one's name out of the Book of Life, as though that were His highest goal.

I have been in churches that see God in this way, and I long ago discarded that idea.

Thank you.

 

[~Anastasia~]

The strength of the Orthodox view is in its emphasis on personal responsibility for making the right choices in the present and extending into the future. This approach is the only one that will cause spiritual growth. What's not growing is dying or dead.

I can see the strength of always making choices with the right goals in mind. I do see how this can help one persevere and can definitely cause growth.

(By way of truth and also hopefully not offending anyone of the Orthodox faith or outside of it, I would have to be honest and say that I do believe one can grow spiritually by keeping one's focus on God - I wasn't sure if you were defining a narrow path for growth but I just don't want my agreement to say something I don't mean to say - for the sake of honesty. Again, I don't mean to offend, and thank you so much for your reply.)

 

[Gxg (G²)]

The strength of the Orthodox view is in its emphasis on personal responsibility for making the right choices in the present and extending into the future. This approach is the only one that will cause spiritual growth. What's not growing is dying or dead.

Indeed

 

[Kristos]

FORGIVENESS SUNDAY PROKEIMENON IN TONE EIGHT
Deacon: The Evening Prokeimenon!

Choir: Turn not away Thy face from Thy servant; for I am in trouble: hear me speedily.
Attend to my soul, and deliver it. (TWICE)

Verse 1. Let Thy salvation, O God, help me. (Refrain)

Verse 2. Let the poor see it and be glad. (Refrain)

Verse 3. Seek God, and thy soul shall live. (Refrain)

 

[Gxg (G²)]

In Orthodoxy, the answers aren't just different, we don't even ask the same questions

 

[ArmyMatt]

But I just can't see God as one who is watching and waiting for a slip-up so that He can blot one's name out of the Book of Life, as though that were His highest goal.

that's good, cause we don't either. we see Him as the Father of the Prodigal Son, always waiting for His children to return.

 

[~Anastasia~]

I appreciate so much everyone's answers here.

I had misunderstood somewhere along the way, and I'm glad the mistake was mine. I thank you all for your kindness in explaining.

Be blessed, dear brothers and sisters!

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

So when are you going to convert to Holy Orthodoxy then?

I appreciate so much everyone's answers here.

I had misunderstood somewhere along the way, and I'm glad the mistake was mine. I thank you all for your kindness in explaining.

Be blessed, dear brothers and sisters!

 

[~Anastasia~]

So when are you going to convert to Holy Orthodoxy then?

LOL, direct, huh?

Actually I will say, my intentions were to re-examine doctrine in general, because I've come to the conclusion that much of what I've been taught was wrong. I can't "wipe the slate" to consider things honestly, so my idea was to get lots of viewpoints.

Orthodoxy said some things that I didn't understand, in some ways, at first. It was so radically different. But I started examining things, and some of those actually make a lot of sense to me. Other things I hear, they just drop right inside me as being in alignment with what I've come to believe already.

I do still have some really major "roadblocks" that I'm honestly not sure could be overcome. Theology-wise. And in that, I'm probably in the same boat as my husband, who would be another major problem. I want us to be together in church, and I want us to be in agreement.

Of course, I'm actually going to believe what I'm going to believe. I can't compromise what I see as truth for anyone. But I'm not sure I could join a church if he doesn't agree, and I likely couldn't attend regularly.

He was taught strongly against RC, and I'm afraid the Orthodox church will "look too Catholic" to him.

Not only that, but I have problems from the same place. Except theologically, I actually have some disagreement of my own. I've been searching Scripture, and have some ideas.

I'll be honest - my problems are with placing Mary in too prominent a position, praying to Mary and Saints, and I'm not sure about icons. The thing is, depending on where the heart is and what is going on in the thoughts, icons could be ok. But it would depend.

If those remain an obstacle for me, I'm not sure where that would leave me. I don't honestly find another church like the Orthodox church, so I can't really find a church that embraces the rest.

I'm starting to feel like a spiritual orphan. And I've been visiting churches looking for a home church for 4 years now. I'm beyond ready to have a "home" and be involved again. I used to be in church 5-6 times a week, and always very involved. I'm not so good out here by myself - I feel like I'm in a desert.

Now ... should I be honest and leave all that, or just make a joking comment as I first considered about staying away until the Lenten fasts are over?

 

[Dorothea]

I hope you will all bear with me if I ask a question here? I'm sure I'm not going to use the right words, but I hope I can make myself understood.

I know the Orthodox do not view salvation as a one-time event, for all time. I understand (somewhat) the concept of "I have been saved, I am being saved, I will one day be saved".

And I agree that we need to persevere in our faith. I'm in the process of re-examing all the things I have been taught and trying to find what is true, and one thing I most definitely have "tossed out" is the idea that we can say a prayer then go on to live whatever kind of sinful life we like if we want, and nothing is going to keep us out of heaven even if we decide we don't want to go there.

Paul talks entirely too much about running the race, staying in the faith, and so on. I do believe we need to persevere.

But I wonder what the Orthodox concept is of how you view your salvation today?

If one were to die soon after coming to faith and being baptized, will they be saved? What determines if they are or not?

Are a certain amount of good deeds necessary? Does unconfessed sin get in the way of salvation? If so, any kind of sin, or just certain ones? Is it something else that means one is saved, or not? Is having saving faith enough?

I guess it's "assurance" I'm wondering about, but not in the usual theological sense. I feel a certain confidence because that's what I've been taught, but also because I know my heart is toward God, I know the Holy Spirit is working in me. I suppose that's all I really base it on. I am driven to study out His truth, and walking in the Spirit helps me to resist the desires of the flesh, but I don't rely on those in my present way of thinking. But doesn't the Holy Spirit testify with our spirit as well that we are His?

I am wondering what the Orthodox view is on this, because I have not yet been able to understand it.

Thanks for any answers.

(I thought I'd put this one here instead of in GT, because my recent inquiries about Orthodox theology stirred up more debate even than asking about Catholic beliefs did.)

Welcome. I'm just going to respond with one thing that popped into my mind that I am assured of.... God's mercy.

 

[Joseph Hazen]

Now ... should I be honest and leave all that, or just make a joking comment as I first considered about staying away until the Lenten fasts are over?

Don't stay away if you're just worried about the forums slowing down. They do, but you'll still get questions answered. It'll just take longer.

Maybe don't expect anything on Clean Monday, Good Friday, or the first two days of Pascha...

 

[Knee V]

LOL, direct, huh?

Actually I will say, my intentions were to re-examine doctrine in general, because I've come to the conclusion that much of what I've been taught was wrong. I can't "wipe the slate" to consider things honestly, so my idea was to get lots of viewpoints.

Orthodoxy said some things that I didn't understand, in some ways, at first. It was so radically different. But I started examining things, and some of those actually make a lot of sense to me. Other things I hear, they just drop right inside me as being in alignment with what I've come to believe already.

I do still have some really major "roadblocks" that I'm honestly not sure could be overcome. Theology-wise. And in that, I'm probably in the same boat as my husband, who would be another major problem. I want us to be together in church, and I want us to be in agreement.

Of course, I'm actually going to believe what I'm going to believe. I can't compromise what I see as truth for anyone. But I'm not sure I could join a church if he doesn't agree, and I likely couldn't attend regularly.

He was taught strongly against RC, and I'm afraid the Orthodox church will "look too Catholic" to him.

Not only that, but I have problems from the same place. Except theologically, I actually have some disagreement of my own. I've been searching Scripture, and have some ideas.

I'll be honest - my problems are with placing Mary in too prominent a position, praying to Mary and Saints, and I'm not sure about icons. The thing is, depending on where the heart is and what is going on in the thoughts, icons could be ok. But it would depend.

If those remain an obstacle for me, I'm not sure where that would leave me. I don't honestly find another church like the Orthodox church, so I can't really find a church that embraces the rest.

I'm starting to feel like a spiritual orphan. And I've been visiting churches looking for a home church for 4 years now. I'm beyond ready to have a "home" and be involved again. I used to be in church 5-6 times a week, and always very involved. I'm not so good out here by myself - I feel like I'm in a desert.

Now ... should I be honest and leave all that, or just make a joking comment as I first considered about staying away until the Lenten fasts are over?

Everything you described is almost exactly like a friend of mine, so much that I had to check your "location" to see if you were her (she, actually, but hardly anyone ever does that correctly to such an extent that the correct word sounds incorrect) or not... and you're not.

 

[Ignatius21]

To Kylissa:

Sorry to have jumped in late, and I'm happy to see your questions being answered.

Just keep one analogy in mind...in fact it's more than analogy, it's sacramental reality...and that would be marriage.

In a marriage...are you married today? Were you married on your wedding day? Will you be married tomorrow? The answer to all of these is "yes." Are you "more" married today, than you were on your honeymoon? No! I mean, yes! I mean...both? Marriage was an event for you, right? You were declared to be married, and it was so. It's an accomplished, objective fact. And yet, the whole goal of marriage is to truly become what you've already been made to be. The subjective experience of marriage must come into alignment with the objective truth that God has declared to be true. You and your husband are two, but are journeying toward becoming one. Not one person, but one union.

This is a perfect parallel to salvation in Christ in the Church, so perfect, in fact, that Paul says that marriage is the mystery of Christ and the Church.

So in your marriage, do you make mistakes? Do you act selfishly? Do you need to humble yourself and ask forgiveness? Of course. Do you take your husband for granted and simply abuse his trust? (Let's say no ). But on the other hand, do you despair of being cast out every time you slip up? No. The bond of marriage is stronger than that. The reality that God has pronounced upon you, is greater than your individual sins. Marriage is very much a matter of holding things in tension--never taking the other person for granted and presuming upon his or her love and trust, but on the other hand, never despairing and living in slavish fear.

If my wife did something hurtful, yes, I'd be hurt. Yes, I'd want her to ask forgiveness. But if she came crawling and fearing that I would throw her out, I'd have to ask "Don't you know me better than that?"

I think this is the best way to look at things, or at least helpful, in regard to our salvation. We have assurance that we are saved, because we are in the Church, and the Church is married to Christ. Can we fall away? Yes. Will God receive us back, as he received the Prodigal? Yes. Should we despair that God is waiting to smack us down into the pit of hell? No. Should we act like we can walk all over him because he's just so gosh-darned nice, he'll never get mad? No (read the Old Testament!)

Does that help?

And with regards to your actual marriage, and the possibility of conversion, I have seen people convert after a spouse who I never expected would actually convert...including some who were almost rabidly anti-Catholic (usually because they'd been taught a false, monstrous caricature of the actual Catholic faith). I've also seen people who've been Orthodox for 30 years and their spouse still attends some separate church. It's not ideal, but it happens, and works for some.

Do not rush things, and do not put strain on your marriage. I'm sure you already know that, but take things slowly and try to do it together. If he would be willing to read something with you, I'd recommend the book by Daniel Clendenin here:

Eastern Orthodox Christianity: A Western Perspective: Daniel B. Clendenin: 9780801026522: Amazon.com: Books

The book by Met. Kallistos (Timothy) Ware is very good also, "The Orthodox Church," but the earlier one is written by an evangelical who gives about the most fair, even and charitable explanation of Orthodoxy I've read to date. And he knows exactly what to address for the sake of people totally unfamiliar with Orthodoxy. You can always tell your husband that if we really wants to stay away from Rome, he needs to quit being a Protestant, and come over to Orthodoxy

(Honestly, though, there are tremendous similarities between Rome and her Protestant children.)

 

[~Anastasia~]

Everything you described is almost exactly like a friend of mine, so much that I had to check your "location" to see if you were her (she, actually, but hardly anyone ever does that correctly to such an extent that the correct word sounds incorrect) or not... and you're not.

No, I couldn't be. Since I never heard of Orthodoxy until I came here, so I don't know anyone here outside.

But hopefully we're both in good company, and I will pray that your friend finds the answers she is seeking as well.

 

[~Anastasia~]

To Kylissa:

Sorry to have jumped in late, and I'm happy to see your questions being answered.

Just keep one analogy in mind...in fact it's more than analogy, it's sacramental reality...and that would be marriage.

In a marriage...are you married today? Were you married on your wedding day? Will you be married tomorrow? The answer to all of these is "yes." Are you "more" married today, than you were on your honeymoon? No! I mean, yes! I mean...both? Marriage was an event for you, right? You were declared to be married, and it was so. It's an accomplished, objective fact. And yet, the whole goal of marriage is to truly become what you've already been made to be. The subjective experience of marriage must come into alignment with the objective truth that God has declared to be true. You and your husband are two, but are journeying toward becoming one. Not one person, but one union.

This is a perfect parallel to salvation in Christ in the Church, so perfect, in fact, that Paul says that marriage is the mystery of Christ and the Church.

So in your marriage, do you make mistakes? Do you act selfishly? Do you need to humble yourself and ask forgiveness? Of course. Do you take your husband for granted and simply abuse his trust? (Let's say no ). But on the other hand, do you despair of being cast out every time you slip up? No. The bond of marriage is stronger than that. The reality that God has pronounced upon you, is greater than your individual sins. Marriage is very much a matter of holding things in tension--never taking the other person for granted and presuming upon his or her love and trust, but on the other hand, never despairing and living in slavish fear.

If my wife did something hurtful, yes, I'd be hurt. Yes, I'd want her to ask forgiveness. But if she came crawling and fearing that I would throw her out, I'd have to ask "Don't you know me better than that?"

I think this is the best way to look at things, or at least helpful, in regard to our salvation. We have assurance that we are saved, because we are in the Church, and the Church is married to Christ. Can we fall away? Yes. Will God receive us back, as he received the Prodigal? Yes. Should we despair that God is waiting to smack us down into the pit of hell? No. Should we act like we can walk all over him because he's just so gosh-darned nice, he'll never get mad? No (read the Old Testament!)

Does that help?

And with regards to your actual marriage, and the possibility of conversion, I have seen people convert after a spouse who I never expected would actually convert...including some who were almost rabidly anti-Catholic (usually because they'd been taught a false, monstrous caricature of the actual Catholic faith). I've also seen people who've been Orthodox for 30 years and their spouse still attends some separate church. It's not ideal, but it happens, and works for some.

Do not rush things, and do not put strain on your marriage. I'm sure you already know that, but take things slowly and try to do it together. If he would be willing to read something with you, I'd recommend the book by Daniel Clendenin here:

Eastern Orthodox Christianity: A Western Perspective: Daniel B. Clendenin: 9780801026522: Amazon.com: Books

The book by Met. Kallistos (Timothy) Ware is very good also, "The Orthodox Church," but the earlier one is written by an evangelical who gives about the most fair, even and charitable explanation of Orthodoxy I've read to date. And he knows exactly what to address for the sake of people totally unfamiliar with Orthodoxy. You can always tell your husband that if we really wants to stay away from Rome, he needs to quit being a Protestant, and come over to Orthodoxy

(Honestly, though, there are tremendous similarities between Rome and her Protestant children.)

Thanks for the explanation, and for the encouragement. I will look into the book. I have things to consider and learn yet myself, but the subject of this thread was a big one. I'm thankful to all for helping with it.

I think he and I both need to look at some church history. I'm starting to question not only what I believe but why some of it was taught, and I'm not liking what I find. (Very little of this so far though. But the desire to be unlike someone else or to fit with prevailing political thought is a bad reason to establish doctrine, IMO)

Our marriage has been a bit stressed for a while, for unrelated reasons. I need to pay primary attention there as well. We've been married less than 5 years and are still both learning how to be married and overcoming some obstacles. So I don't want to cause problems.

Thanks again for your post. It was especially helpful.

 

[Ignatius21]

Thanks for the explanation, and for the encouragement. I will look into the book. I have things to consider and learn yet myself, but the subject of this thread was a big one. I'm thankful to all for helping with it.

I think he and I both need to look at some church history. I'm starting to question not only what I believe but why some of it was taught, and I'm not liking what I find. (Very little of this so far though. But the desire to be unlike someone else or to fit with prevailing political thought is a bad reason to establish doctrine, IMO)

Our marriage has been a bit stressed for a while, for unrelated reasons. I need to pay primary attention there as well. We've been married less than 5 years and are still both learning how to be married and overcoming some obstacles. So I don't want to cause problems.

Thanks again for your post. It was especially helpful.

You're welcome. And if it helps, I was recently talking to a couple at our parish who was celebrating their 30th wedding anniversary. When I asked them what the "secret" is to a long, happy marriage, they said "I don't know, we're still learning!"