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FenderElctrc

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I put this here, but it goes to every question and confusion about the Bible. Don't go with what you think and say to people that you're right. No, ask God for a clear understanding and he will give it to you. People fight and argue to say what they think is right. Ask God! He created the Earth, he knows what happened. Instead of having pride in yourself and telling everyone that you're right, ask God. No one can 100% understand the Bible except through speaking with God and having him bring you to a clear understanding.
 

jeffweeder

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If I told you: "God told me to be a TE", what would you reply then?

where in the bible did you get this inspiration would be my first qu.

Amen! It wasn't until I really went to God for answers that I realized that creationism is unbiblical.

Thats rather strange to me, I went to the bible for answers and saw creation as biblical...
 
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Assyrian

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Instead of having pride in yourself and telling everyone that you're right, ask God. No one can 100% understand the Bible except through speaking with God and having him bring you to a clear understanding.
Are you saying that having asked God you do 100% understand the bible?

1Cor 8:2 If anyone imagines that he knows something, he does not yet know as he ought to know.
 
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Assyrian

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where in the bible did you get this inspiration would be my first qu.
For me it was through becoming familiar with parables and prophetic scriptures. Our Lord spent three years trying to teach his disciples to understand metaphors and parables. I began to learn how God loves to communicate with us in figurative language and I began to get a feel for parables, figures and metaphor.
 
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chaoschristian

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I agree in that the Holy Spirit is the only means through which understanding is obtained about anything.

Now, the question is, if a person disagrees with you on something does that mean one or the other is without the Holy Spirit?

I sometimes wonder if in fact the tension that is caused by our clashes over these various pov's is wholly intentioned and that what we really need to be doing is examining this tension and drawing a different conclusion from that examination rather than fighting for rhetorical supremacy.

I put this here, but it goes to every question and confusion about the Bible. Don't go with what you think and say to people that you're right. No, ask God for a clear understanding and he will give it to you. People fight and argue to say what they think is right. Ask God! He created the Earth, he knows what happened. Instead of having pride in yourself and telling everyone that you're right, ask God. No one can 100% understand the Bible except through speaking with God and having him bring you to a clear understanding.
 
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lucaspa

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I put this here, but it goes to every question and confusion about the Bible. Don't go with what you think and say to people that you're right. No, ask God for a clear understanding and he will give it to you. ... Ask God! He created the Earth, he knows what happened.

And that is exactly what Christians did in the period 1700-1860. They realized that God created and went to God to find out how He created. And that is what modern science is: how God created.
 
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lucaspa

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I agree in that the Holy Spirit is the only means through which understanding is obtained about anything.

That's not true. After all, Thomas was not using the Holy Spirit when he put his hands in the wounds of the risen Jesus, was he?

The Holy Spirit is one way to gain understanding. It may be the only way in some things. But testing reveals that saying "the Holy Spirit is the only means through which understanding is obtained about anything" is over the top.

Now, the question is, if a person disagrees with you on something does that mean one or the other is without the Holy Spirit?

Not necessarily.

In some areas such as the ordination of women or "forgive us our trespasses" vs "forgive us our debts" in the Lord's Prayer, it may mean that honest people honestly disagree.

In dealing with an interpretation of scripture vs God's Creation, it may mean they have made a tragic logical mistake: tied the question of how God created to the issue of whether God created. Therefore the person fears that if God did not create by creationism, then God does not exist.

Or it may be something far more serious: that someone has mistakenly made a false idol out of a human interpretation of scripture.
 
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FenderElctrc

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Are you saying that having asked God you do 100% understand the bible?

1Cor 8:2 If anyone imagines that he knows something, he does not yet know as he ought to know.
I'm currently studying the Bible and I'm talking with God so I can get the right understanding of God's word and not have a "puffed up" head about what I think is true. I never said I 100% understand. I am currently asking God if evolution or creation is true. I'm waiting patiently for the answer.
 
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Melethiel

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Just don't be surprised if the answer doesn't come in the way you expect. For me, the answer came after several years of ground courses in the hard sciences ("indoctrination", I believe some around here would call it :p ), as well as prayer and studying Scripture.

I think that drawing a line between "evolution" and "creation" is not the correct way to go about things.
 
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FenderElctrc

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Just don't be surprised if the answer doesn't come in the way you expect. For me, the answer came after several years of ground courses in the hard sciences ("indoctrination", I believe some around here would call it :p ), as well as prayer and studying Scripture.

I think that drawing a line between "evolution" and "creation" is not the correct way to go about things.
If you think about it, it's not like this is all really important. It doesn't say in the Bible at all that it's sin to not know how Earth and species got here. Whatever. We'll see what God says.
 
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Deamiter

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If you think about it, it's not like this is all really important. It doesn't say in the Bible at all that it's sin to not know how Earth and species got here. Whatever. We'll see what God says.
Very well said, something that probably doesn't get said around her enough!

I have to admit, that I am not always sure when the Holy Spirit is speaking. This isn't supposed to be a blatantly obvious event according to the Bible as we are supposed to test every spirit and it's not as if I haven't experienced times when it WAS obvious.

I don't remember any one point when I was 'told' which is true. Unlike some other times in my life, the Holy Spirit didn't knock me over the head with this one! It was more like I was struggling to find answers in the conflicting writing of the many theologians out there and in the Bible which is rather difficult to interpret alone.

I think that i strongly questioned my understanding that the Bible only makes sense through an understanding of YEC. Then looking back on it, it seems that the Holy Spirit honored my requests to lead me to an understanding of scripture that fits with what I'd learned about the world.

It's not that I asked to have the Bible fit with evolution, it's more like it didn't really matter to the Holy Spirit whether I understood the factual/mythological basis of Genesis as long as I got the truth behind the text (that we've all sinned, how we must go to God for redemption etc...) It was only after it became a struggle for me that I started to be lead to the writing of people like C.S. Lewis who could show how as you said, it really doesn't matter whether Genesis is historical as long as we know it is true.

Part of the revelation that came out of this experience was that the Bible is hardly our sole source of God-given truth. The model IN the Bible is of a community of followers that constantly discuss their relationship with God and pass understanding among themselves. The Bible is a record of some of these communities that existed thousands of years ago (along with the events surrounding our savior, Jesus Christ) and it should be studied daily! However, I think the error of YEC (forgive me if you disagree, this here is my opinion) is in its focus on scripture only. The Bible is certainly our base upon which we can build through our relationship with other followers, but it's far from the only resource we're given.

Life was just a lot more confusing when I'd read the Bible and just wait for answers from the Holy Spirit. God has taught me over my few years that he expects me not only to read what he told the Bible's authors in the past, but to study what he's told other believers in the following two-thousand years. If something contradicts the Bible, it's clearly not from God, but it's very important to seperate one's interpretation of scripture (saying, for example, that Genesis 1 must be historical) from scripture itself (where the truth behind the account remains whether the account is factual or as C.S. Lewis put it, a True Myth).
 
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Just don't be surprised if the answer doesn't come in the way you expect.

Like the fellow who prayed God would save him from a flood and after he drowned asked God why he hadn't. "What did you expect?" God asked. "I sent a canoe, a motorboat and a helicopter, but you refused to use them."

Evidence can be a reply from the Holy Spirit just as surely as a vision. Here are a few excerpts from a blog by one former creationist who found that to be true.


Years ago I was fighting the good fight of creation on the Internet. I argued that evolution was impossible, for it required that the genetic code had to be changed to make new kinds of animals. It did not seem feasible to me that evolution could do this. I argued in the CompuServe debate forum, basing my arguments on Michael Denton's Evolution: A Theory in Crises. My favorite illustration was the difference between mammals and reptiles. The differences between living mammals and reptiles are substantial. Mammals all have hair, mammary glands, a four-chambered heart, and the distinct mammalian ear, with three little bones inside. These features are found in no living reptiles. I argued that this is because there is no viable intermediate between the two, that an animal could have either the reptile genetic code or the mammal code but could not be in the middle.

An evolutionist disagreed with me. He told me that in the past there had been many intermediates. He said that there were animals that, for instance, had jaw and ear bones that were intermediate between reptiles and mammals. How did he know this? He gave a reference to an essay in Stephen Gould's Ten Little Piggies . I wrote back that since the local library had a large collection of children's book, I should be able to find that book. (I thought I was so funny). I borrowed the book, and found an interesting account of how bones in the reptile jaw evolved and changed through millions of years to become the mammals' ear. That sounded like such a clever tale. How could Gould believe it? Perhaps he made it up. But there was one little footnote, a footnote that would change my life. It said simply, "Allin, E. F. 1975. Evolution of the Mammalian Middle Ear. Journal of Morphology 147:403-38." That's it. That's all it said. But it was soon to have a huge impact on me. You see, I had developed this habit of looking things up, and had been making regular trips to the University of Pennsylvania library. I was getting involved in some serious discussions on the Internet, and was finding the scientific journals to be a reliable source of information. Well, I couldn't believe that a real scientific journal would take such a tale seriously, but, before I would declare victory, I needed to check it out.

On my next trip to the university, I found my way to the biomedical library and located the journal archives. I retrieved the specified journal, and started to read. I could not believe my eyes. There were detailed descriptions of many intermediate fossils. The article described in detail how the bones evolved from reptiles to mammals through a long series of mammal-like reptiles. I paged through the volume in my hand. There were hundreds of pages, all loaded with information. I looked at other journals. I found page after page describing transitional fossils. More significantly, there were all of those troublesome dates. If one arranged the fossils according to date, he could see how the bones changed with time. Each fossil species was dated at a specific time range. It all fit together. I didn't know what to think. Could all of these fossil drawings be fakes? Could all of these dates be pulled out of a hat? Did these articles consist of thousands of lies? All seemed to indicate that life evolved over many millions of years. Were all of these thousands of "facts" actually guesses? I looked around me. The room was filled with many bookshelves; each was filled with hundreds of bound journals. Were all of these journals drenched with lies? ....

The impact of that day in the library was truly stunning. I didn't know what to say. I could not argue against the overwhelming evidence for mammal evolution. But neither could I imagine believing it. Something had happened to me. My mind had begun to think. And it was not about to be stopped. Oh no. There is no stopping the mind set free. I went to the library and borrowed a few books on evolution and creation--diligently studying both sides of the argument. I started to read the evolutionist books with amazement. I had thought that evolutionists taught that floating cows had somehow turned into whales; that hopeful monsters had suddenly evolved without transitions; that one must have blind faith since transitional fossils did not exist; that one must simply guess at the dates for the fossils; and that one must ignore all of the evidence for young-earth creation. I was surprised to learn what these scientist actually knew about the Creationist teachings of flood geology, of the proposed young-earth proofs, and of the reported problems of evolution. And I was surprised at the answers that they had for these Creationist arguments. And I was surprised to see all the clear, logical arguments for evolution. I read with enthusiasm. I learned about isochrons, intermediate fossils, the geologic column, and much more. ...

Within days, I had lost interest in fighting evolution. I began to read more and speak less. I could no longer ignore what I had learned.



http://www.geocities.com/questioningpage/Evolve2.html


I think that drawing a line between "evolution" and "creation" is not the correct way to go about things.

So true. Atheists often present evolution as an alternative to creation. And creationists present creation as an alternative to evolution as a way of equating evolution with atheism.

TEs see evolution as a mode of creation, not as an alternative to creation.
 
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FenderElctrc

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"Ask God" is the standard Mormon missionary line.
Great. I'm not a Mormon. I'm telling you to ask God about scripture and what is the Truth. He will give you a clear understanding.
 
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Deamiter

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Great. I'm not a Mormon. I'm telling you to ask God about scripture and what is the Truth. He will give you a clear understanding.
I think his point was that motive is very important. The Mormons are masters at showing you how similar their religion is to mainstream Christianity. They will tell you what you should believe, and then defend their beliefs by saying "ask God and he'll show you that we're right."

Due to the simple phenomenon of peer pressure, this actually works quite often. Since Mormons aren't allowed on these forums, I can pretty safely say that none of us actually believe that God leads people to belief in Mormonism. Yet thousands convert to Mormonism each year and each believes that when they asked God, they were told that Mormonism is true.

It's just important to avoid peer pressure when asking God. Many people (as I once did) make the mistake of hoping god will give one answer over another and doing everything in their power to help that (in this case perhaps by reading creationist sources and talking to creationist pastors or friends). It's just so appealing to be accepted and to have those you know as strong Christians to accept you and your beliefs fully. I should point out that I originally accepted evolution to fit in with my peers. It was because the basis of my belief was not based on evidence that I had such a crisis in faith when I encountered strong creationists, and I'm sure the opposite would be true for those who accept YEC due to social influences rather than evidence. I've also heard similar stories of people converting from accepting evolution which they'd previously only accepted to fit in in school. Of course, there are similar stories (on this board in fact) of those who accepted creationism due to influence by parents or Christian teachers rather than from a sincere search for the truth in God's creation and in the writing of those who followed God in the past.

The point is that the standard for what God tells you is not what makes you feel most comfortable or what gives you a feeling of peace. It's the result of an honest investigation toward finding truth in God's revelation. It's often said that God meets you half-way and I think it's totally true. God doesn't (usually) just give answers, he sends the means for you to find answers and grow in your faith at the same time.

Anyway, I just thoght I'd comment on the "ask God is a standard Mormon tactic" because one must be careful. If somebody tells you to ask God when you ask how they came to their beliefs, you should be careful not to ask God to help you agree with them for the sake of being accepted by them. I just noticed that you were suprised that I would honestly say that God lead me to the understanding of Genesis I have today as you seemed to think that YEC was the interpretation that God would lead you to if you asked. The simple fact of the matter is that God has designed us to be very social creatures and quite a lot of that includes our wanting to please him and others. We just need to constantly be aware of this in our search for truth so that we don't form what we believe in the image of those we want to fit in with!
 
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FenderElctrc

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I think his point was that motive is very important. The Mormons are masters at showing you how similar their religion is to mainstream Christianity. They will tell you what you should believe, and then defend their beliefs by saying "ask God and he'll show you that we're right."

Due to the simple phenomenon of peer pressure, this actually works quite often. Since Mormons aren't allowed on these forums, I can pretty safely say that none of us actually believe that God leads people to belief in Mormonism. Yet thousands convert to Mormonism each year and each believes that when they asked God, they were told that Mormonism is true.

It's just important to avoid peer pressure when asking God. Many people (as I once did) make the mistake of hoping god will give one answer over another and doing everything in their power to help that (in this case perhaps by reading creationist sources and talking to creationist pastors or friends). It's just so appealing to be accepted and to have those you know as strong Christians to accept you and your beliefs fully.

Make no mistake, this is by no means limited to creationists! I've heard similar stories of people converting from accepting evolution which they'd previously only done to fit in in school.

The point is that the standard for what God tells you is not what makes you feel most comfortable or what gives you a feeling of peace. It's the result of an honest investigation toward finding truth in God's revelation. It's often said that God meets you half-way and I think it's totally true. God doesn't (usually) just give answers, he sends the means for you to find answers and grow in your faith at the same time.

Anyway, I just thoght I'd comment on the "ask God is a standard Mormon tactic" because one must be careful. If somebody tells you to ask God when you ask how they came to their beliefs, you should be careful not to ask God to help you agree with them for the sake of being accepted by them. I just noticed that you were suprised that I would honestly say that God lead me to the understanding of Genesis I have today as you seemed to think that YEC was the interpretation that God would lead you to if you asked. The simple fact of the matter is that God has designed us to be very social creatures and quite a lot of that includes our wanting to please him and others. We just need to constantly be aware of this in our search for truth so that we don't form what we believe in the image of those we want to fit in with!
I saw one Mormon here. Also, if you wanted to know, I'm a creationist, (currently asking god if I'm correct) but the age of the Earth, I don't really know. How would we be able to know. It doesn't actually say it in the Bible. People will count generations. I don't know. Earlier this year, I had to write a paragraph on which one I believed for history and I wrote that it wasn't really important that we know. I wrote how I believed that Adam & Eve were the first people, but said that it didn't really matter. Unless God wants me to know, I don't see why we have to. I also wrote that we shouldn't care about it so much. We don't have to believe what we're taught, so what's the big deal? It doesn't say in the Bible that we don't go to Heaven if we don't know what happened. It's probably one of the least important things to be worrying about. We need to care more about our relationship with God more. That's how I think.
 
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