Arizona tribes show outpouring of support in pipeline battle

Fish and Bread

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I wonder how many people are out of work because this pipe line is being held up?

I feel so bad for all those families that have kids who are going to go hungry because work can not get done

How about these oil companies finance the construction and maintenance of solar farms, wind farms, and water turbines on lands that aren't claimed by Native American tribes (and don't effect their lands), or with the permission of the tribes? I'm sure that would require them to hire a lot of people to construct and maintain those things- and it would be clean energy that doesn't contribute to global climate change or infringe on the rights of a people we've spent hundreds of years trampling on the rights of. Because those projects are in harmony with the land, some tribes might even welcome them on their lands, and the companies could give them a cut of the revenue as part of the bargain, but, if not, the companies could find somewhere else to put them.

Heck, even if you still think there should be an actual oil pipeline (And I don't, either way), the company involved in this could suck it up and pay the extra money it takes to build the pipeline on land they own or could buy that is not in the same water basin as Native American tribes. In fact, it looks like they tried to do that, and the white government said "Not in our backyard", and they both conspired to sock it to Native Americans, because they didn't think Native Americans could fight back. That's what bullies do, victimize people who they don't think can fight back. They never pick fights with people who they think could win against them or who they think could inflict enough damage to force them to come to a negotiating table and come up with a fair compromise agreed to by both sides. I see this in my everyday life all the time.

For that matter, why do we allow families to go hungry in general in a country who's GDP was *twenty times* as large in 2000 as it was in 1900, even adjusted for inflation? Why don't we have a national minimum income that covers all the basic necessities of life? Why don't we have universal health care?

Those are all rhetorical questions. They aren't meant to be answered. I don't really care if people think they aren't good ideas, or why they think they aren't good ideas if they think so. The only point I'm really trying to make is that one can't reasonably act as though a big corporation building an oil pipeline through sacred Native American land is the only way to employ people or make sure people have enough to eat. There are plenty of ways we can create more jobs and increase people's access to food that don't involve this specific project. Saying something like "It's this or people go unemployed and their children have to survive on bread and water" is narrowing the choices very significantly without good reason. I'm sure even the conservatives could come up with other ways to make money and employ and feed people. It doesn't all hang on this one oil pipeline in this one area.

What does the oil company plan to tell the people who are jobless and going hungry because their cities flood and they are climate refugees because of projects like this? What do they tell all the young Native Americans who commit suicide at a much higher rate than the general population because they made to feel inferior because their people are pushed around by people who want to do things like build oil pipelines and don't care what the religious and cultural beliefs of the people in the area are or what they have to say about it in general?

Why haven't we learned any moral lessons from past mistreatment of Native Americans and decided to stop abusing them going forward? It's one thing to say we can't change the past and maybe not be for reparations or something, but this isn't about changing the past or reparations for past actions, this is a current action that's happening *right now*. I'm sure we'll all acknowledge it was wrong in thirty years, but by then we won't be able to change the past that is now the present, and will have likely moved on to committing some other horrible act against Native peoples.
 
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Fish and Bread

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This song from the 80s was written about Australian aboriginal tribes and the oil companies that exploited their land against their will in a situation that has significant parallels with the current situation in and around Standing Rock:

 
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Shiloh Raven

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How about these oil companies finance the construction and maintenance of solar farms, wind farms, and water turbines on lands that aren't claimed by Native American tribes (and don't effect their lands), or with the permission of the tribes? I'm sure that would require them to hire a lot of people to construct and maintain those things- and it would be clean energy that doesn't contribute to global climate change or infringe on the rights of a people we've spent hundreds of years trampling on the rights of. Because those projects are in harmony with the land, some tribes might even welcome them on their lands, and the companies could give them a cut of the revenue as part of the bargain, but, if not, the companies could find somewhere else to put them.

Heck, even if you still think there should be an actual oil pipeline (And I don't, either way), the company involved in this could suck it up and pay the extra money it takes to build the pipeline on land they own or could buy that is not in the same water basin as Native American tribes. In fact, it looks like they tried to do that, and the white government said "Not in our backyard", and they both conspired to sock it to Native Americans, because they didn't think Native Americans could fight back. That's what bullies do, victimize people who they don't think can fight back. They never pick fights with people who they think could win against them or who they think could inflict enough damage to force them to come to a negotiating table and come up with a fair compromise agreed to by both sides. I see this in my everyday life all the time.

For that matter, why do we allow families to go hungry in general in a country who's GDP was *twenty times* as large in 2000 as it was in 1900, even adjusted for inflation? Why don't we have a national minimum income that covers all the basic necessities of life? Why don't we have universal health care?

Those are all rhetorical questions. They aren't meant to be answered. I don't really care if people think they aren't good ideas, or why they think they aren't good ideas if they think so. The only point I'm really trying to make is that one can't reasonably act as though a big corporation building an oil pipeline through sacred Native American land is the only way to employ people or make sure people have enough to eat. There are plenty of ways we can create more jobs and increase people's access to food that don't involve this specific project. Saying something like "It's this or people go unemployed and their children have to survive on bread and water" is narrowing the choices very significantly without good reason. I'm sure even the conservatives could come up with other ways to make money and employ and feed people. It doesn't all hang on this one oil pipeline in this one area.

What does the oil company plan to tell the people who are jobless and going hungry because their cities flood and they are climate refugees because of projects like this? What do they tell all the young Native Americans who commit suicide at a much higher rate than the general population because they made to feel inferior because their people are pushed around by people who want to do things like build oil pipelines and don't care what the religious and culture beliefs of the people in the area are or what they have to say about it in general?

Why haven't we learned any moral lessons from past mistreatment of Native Americans and decided to stop abusing them going forward? It's one thing to say we can't change the past and maybe not be for reparations or something, but this isn't about changing the past or reparations for past actions, this is a current action that's happening *right now*. I'm sure we'll all acknowledge it was wrong in thirty years, but by then we won't be able to change the past that is now the present, and will have likely moved on to committing some other horrible act against Native peoples.

QFT. Well said. Thank you very much my friend.
 
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Fish and Bread

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Neil Young apparently put a new song and video up on Youtube in support of the protesters, but then took it down (Maybe he was supposed to wait for the record label to officially release it first or something.).

Anyway, the video link in this article is broken, but the article does still include the full lyrics of the song in written form:

http://www.stereogum.com/1899592/neil-young-indian-givers-video/video/?
 
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tadoflamb

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@Fish and Bread

Neil Young is now sharing his song Indian Giver. I like the song except for one word he uses, which is offensive to use. I hope he edits that word out.


I heard that. I'm surprised he didn't know any better. It's not in the lyrics in the link Fish posted.

I liked the lyrics and the video, but the song was a little flat.
 
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Shiloh Raven

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I heard that. I'm surprised he didn't know any better. It's not in the lyrics in the link Fish posted.

I liked the lyrics and the video, but the song was a little flat.

I thought he would know better too. He apologized and he said he would change it to beautiful as soon as he can get to the studio.
 
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tadoflamb

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70 Tohono O'odham and Pascua Yaqui are going to Standing Rock with donations and support.

As seen of Facebook
14344226_873349496099388_2263634323213384657_n.jpg


Awesome jus awesome. Cook donates her favorite pot. Her pot will feed many people beyond her humble sharing of her cuisine. Thank you for your donations, you will have fed many by way of your contributions. Hodai Kek. For the People. Note: getting between a cook and their cooking pot is a serious matter. All for the good of the people. Si has em elid.
 
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brinny

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I've been a little surprised how little I've heard about what's going on in North Dakota. Aside from some of my Facebook friends and my friend, Red Fox, there has been little news on what, to me, is a compelling story.

Finally, this morning, there were two very good articles on the protest. What I found most interesting is how the indigenous peoples of Arizona understand what it's like to have their water supplies threatened.

http://tucson.com/news/arizona-trib...cle_3602e69b-05f0-562b-9800-085dcab107ed.html

Perhaps the government should at least consider alternatives. This is a travesty when voices are not heard and entire peoples are rendered as it were, silent, "silenced".

Tragic.

God have mercy.

Praying that justice is done, and that God protects and defends each of them.
 
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brinny

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70 Tohono O'odham and Pascua Yaqui are going to Stand Rock with donations and support.

As seen of Facebook
14344226_873349496099388_2263634323213384657_n.jpg


Awesome jus awesome. Cook donates her favorite pot. Her pot will feed many people beyond her humble sharing of her cuisine. Thank you for your donations, you will have fed many by way of your contributions. Hodai Kek. For the People. Note: getting between a cook and their cooking pot is a serious matter. All for the good of the people. Si has em elid.

Precious (((hug)))
 
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I know only 2 well---you do not mess with the cooks favorite pot. Mess with my pots and pans and you will draw back a stump. I let my husband use them, and my knives, but only occasionally and he has to treat them well! It would take an awful lot for me to give away my pots--that would cause me physical pain. Maybe when this is over, they will give her pot back to her.
 
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Fish and Bread

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Admittedly, I have mixed feelings about the news stories you shared, Fish. I am not sure how much I can say without sounding disrespectful.

I don't always agree with 100% of what's in an article I post for discussion.

If you can come up with a way to say it without seeming disrespectful, what's bothering you?

If not, and you want to just let it drop instead, no big deal. :) We are definitely on the same side of this thing overall, which is that this oil pipeline should not be built.

It'd be nice to see the protesters win for once. The way the Occupy movement seemed not to really lead ton in terms of lasting political change bothered me- I think it had an important message. Certainly the Civil Rights protests of the 1960s did have an impact, though, so its not always for naught.
 
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tadoflamb

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I don't always agree with 100% of what's in an article I post for discussion.

If you can come up with a way to say it without seeming disrespectful, what's bothering you?

If not, and you want to just let it drop instead, no big deal. :) We are definitely on the same side of this thing overall, which is that this oil pipeline should not be built.

It'd be nice to see the protesters win for once. The way the Occupy movement seemed not to really lead ton in terms of lasting political change bothered me- I think it had an important message. Certainly the Civil Rights protests of the 1960s did have an impact, though, so its not always for naught.

We don't need to be worried about any of the pipeline workers children going hungry, because as I understand it, construction is still going on at uncontested sections of the pipeline. My concern is that Dakota Access is just biding their time, anticipating the forced removal of the protectors and a return to the status quo.

From my limited knowledge it appears that there is still an attempt at a media blackout and protectors are getting arrested and their FB accounts removed. Vehicles are getting pulled over by police simply for having people in them. As you alluded to above, there is so much more going on here than a tribe fighting for it's water rights. As a nation, what's happening in North Dakota should have us questioning our energy policy, how we treat indigenous peoples and how money controls the media.
 
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