Are there Christians today who minimize the consequences of sin and ignore morality on some level?

[ToBeLoved]

Well, I am not saying the two covenants are identical (but they are similar). Obviously it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that the Old and New are different Covenants. They each have different Laws or Commands to them. They are also of different priesthoods, too. Also, the New Covenant merely gives us grace whereby under the Old Covenant, the Law could kill us physically for disobeying His Commands. But at the heart they both point to Jesus Christ and in having faith in God or the Messiah. Most believers now know who our Savior is in more detail, etc and His ultimate plan of salvation. But even Abraham had seen Jesus' s day and was glad. But does God's goodness and fair judgments change? No. That is a part of who God is always. God does not put on a mask of behaving totally different or contrary to the way He acted before when it comes to His behavior or good character. For when God says He will forsake His people for going after other gods, that is speaking about how God views faithfulness (which is eternal).


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There is no one in the Melchezedek priesthood but Jesus and Melchezedek. And since Melchezedek seemed to be divine, I think we can just cut to the chase and call the Melchezeek priesthood the High Priest, which is ONLY Jesus Christ.

So the priesthood in actuality went from Levitical, to Christ.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Well, I am not saying the two covenants are identical (but they are similar). Obviously it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that the Old and New are different Covenants. They each have different Laws or Commands to them. They are also of different priesthoods, too. Also, the New Covenant merely gives us grace whereby under the Old Covenant, the Law could kill us physically for disobeying His Commands. But at the heart they both point to Jesus Christ and in having faith in God or the Messiah. Most believers now know who our Savior is in more detail, etc and His ultimate plan of salvation. But even Abraham had seen Jesus' s day and was glad. But does God's goodness and fair judgments change? No. That is a part of who God is always. God does not put on a mask of behaving totally different or contrary to the way He acted before when it comes to His behavior or good character. For when God says He will forsake His people for going after other gods, that is speaking about how God views faithfulness (which is eternal).


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They are NOT similiar at all.

One is held to perfection, in the other there is forgiveness.
One was to show what sin was and was not, and the other forgives that sin.
No one could keep the Old Covenant, we are forgiven in Christ.
One Covenant was upheld with the blood of animals, the other with the blood of God.
One had dietary laws and circumcision laws, the other does not.
One was for just one people group primarily (Hebrews), the other is for all (Jew and Gentile).

I think you need to think about this and pray about it some more.

 

[ToBeLoved]

No. The Lord our God does not change. If He operated that way in the Old Covenant, that means He operates in a similar way in the New Covenant. For even in the Old Covenant, they were justified by faith and looked to a Messiah to take away their sins.


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The common people were justified by faith? Where is that in the law?

I know Abraham, Issac, some of the Patriarchs were specifically given justification, but show me where that was done for everyone. Verses please.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I am not really interested in debating this with you back and forth. Please do not take this the wrong way, but I do not believe you are able to see it because you do not want to see it (for your own reasons). So I think it is best to agree to disagree.

May God bless you.


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[ToBeLoved]

God bless you too Jason. Pray about what I talked about. See what the Holy Spirit says to you.

 

[EmSw]

HE SAYS he kept the commandments. Jesus corrected him.

Where did Jesus correct him? Jesus never said, 'no, you didn't keep the commandments'. Unbelievable how you want to add to what the Word says.

Yes, Jesus did. Jesus pointed out that if the rich young man really wanted to find affirmation from God as a law-keeper, he had to sell everything he had and give it to the poor. The rich young ruler went away sad because he knew he had not kept the law. See Jesus sermon on the mount, the standards he has are quite high. He says, sell what you have, give to the poor. If you even look at a woman lustfully, you are an adulterer. Those are quite high standards. Nobody honestly keeps them. And if you break one law, you are guilty of the whole law.[/QUOTE]

Paul said he was blameless as to the law. How is that so? Have you also not read about Zacharias and Elizabeth?

Luke 1
5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the division of Abijah. His wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elizabeth.
6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

Those who have no desire to keep the commandments will never keep them. You better believe God set high standards. Only the holy will see Him and those who keep His commandments will enter life. Everybody wants if easy; they do not care to follow the standards Jesus set. They do want to go to heaven, but they don't care to live the life God commands.

Many Christians today aren't worthy of Jesus. They do not want to take up their cross and follow Him.

This is just a good example of how Biblicism doesn't work. You are reading the Bible looking for justification for your good works, and condemning other Christians who don't. That's no better than the Pharisee who says "I'm thankful that I am not like a sinner, that publican over there". And yet the sinner will go away justified.

It's called obedience FD, obedience to the Master. It sounds like obedience is not a vital part of your salvation. You need to read the parables of Jesus and see what disobedience does for a servant.

 

[High Fidelity]

Yes. They're the 'many'.

 

[EmSw]

That's a mixture of good news and bad news, actually. All calling this Good News does is muddy the waters of what real goodness is.

... the legal and juridical categories of Roman religion about desperately propitiating an angry God.

He loves us just as we are, not as we should be. In fact the only power we will find for transformation of our lives is found in that acceptance, and nowhere else.

More law.

So FD, are you a lawless person? Is lawlessness a trademark of which you are proud? You did know the Bible tells us about a lawless one, don't you? I don't think anything good is said about a lawless person.

 

[FireDragon76]

Christ has died for my sins. I don't worry about my obedience. It doesn't do any good good. I just pray to God to bring his healing presence into my life, my relationships and my vocation.

I really don't think you have the right to judge me. I've been through hell in my life. That's my point, many Christians on this forum don't evidence any of the mercy of Jesus Christ. That's just as much despised by God as not keeping the law. "Blessed are the merciful, for they shall be obtain mercy".

I go to an ELCA Lutheran church, but I'm just a mere Christian at the moment. I think the preaching there is a lot more solid than a lot of churches, because Lutherans distinguish between the Law and the Gospel. God gives us high ideals but he settles for much less, and he accepts as as we are, and not as we should be.

 

[Aldebaran]

So FD, are you a lawless person? Is lawlessness a trademark of which you are proud? You did know the Bible tells us about a lawless one, don't you? I don't think anything good is said about a lawless person.

I think we can admit to be lawless without it being a matter of pride, but rather as a confession of what we are. Just as someone admitting their individual sins isn't bragging, but confessing.
As for me, I'm convicted pretty much every time I read the bible, seeing that I'm guilty of so much, but with no way on my own to change what I am.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

God bless you too Jason.

Thank you.

Pray about what I talked about.

Sorry, I don't think that is going to happen. There is 0% chance I believe that you are right in any way. I read a couple of lines of what you said from your first post and just stopped (because I feel God is telling me not to reply to you at this time).

See what the Holy Spirit says to you.

I believe the understanding I currently have by God's Word is by the Spirit.


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[EmSw]

Christ has died for my sins. I don't worry about my obedience. It doesn't do any good good. I just pray to God to bring his healing presence into my life, my relationships and my vocation.

You don't worry about obedience, because it won't do any good? Really?

I plead with you to read and understand the following verses -

Acts 5:32
And we are His witnesses to these things, and so also is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey Him.

Romans 2:8
but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,

Romans 6:16
Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?

Romans 6:17
But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered.

Galatians 3:1
O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among you as crucified?

Galatians 5:7
You ran well. Who hindered you from obeying the truth?

2 Thessalonians 1:8
...in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 3:18
And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey?

Hebrews 5:9
And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,

1 Peter 1:22
Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart,

FD, obedience does matter, and it does do good.

The Holy Spirit is given to those who obey Him.
Obedience leads to righteousness.
Disobedience will bring God's vengeance, wrath and indignation.
Those who do not obey are fools who have been bewitched.
You enter God's rest through obedience.
You purify your soul through obedience.
You are saved through obedience.

FD, I entreat you to change your view of obedience. Without obedience, you do not receive the Holy Spirit, you will not be righteous, you cannot purify your soul, and most importantly, Jesus is not the author of your eternal salvation.

I really don't think you have the right to judge me. I've been through hell in my life. That's my point, many Christians on this forum don't evidence any of the mercy of Jesus Christ. That's just as much despised by God as not keeping the law. "Blessed are the merciful, for they shall be obtain mercy".

The Word judges you. The Word is abundant with mercy.

I go to an ELCA Lutheran church, but I'm just a mere Christian at the moment. I think the preaching there is a lot more solid than a lot of churches, because Lutherans distinguish between the Law and the Gospel. God gives us high ideals but he settles for much less, and he accepts as as we are, and not as we should be.

Whether the law or the Gospel, obedience is a very important of both.

Here is who God accepts -

Acts 10:35
But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.

Fearing God and working righteousness is obeying the Word.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Thank you.



Sorry, I don't think that is going to happen. There is 0% chance I believe that you are right in any way. I read a couple of lines of what you said from your first post and just stopped (because I feel God is telling me not to reply to you at this time).

I believe the understanding I currently have by God's Word is by the Spirit.

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That is sad you refuse to check with the Holy Spirit because you are so sure of your beliefs. He is God isn't He. Jesus said He brings truth to us.

I feel sorry for you. I will really pray for you. Seriously.




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[Bible Highlighter]

That is sad you refuse to check with the Holy Spirit because you are so sure of your beliefs. He is God isn't He. Jesus said He brings truth to us.

I feel sorry for you. I will really pray for you. Seriously.

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Not sure how you can get that out of what I said. Nowhere did I say I would refuse to pray to God the Father with the help of the Spirit so as to gain understanding of His Word. If you were to go back and read what I said, the understanding that I have now is by the Spirit. I was essentially saying that there was 0% chance of me hearing what you have to say in regards to God's Word. There is a difference.

Oh, and yes.
I will pray for you, too.
For you to see that what you believe in regards to Eternal Security is not true.


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[FireDragon76]

Whether the law or the Gospel, obedience is a very important of both.

The Gospel is the promise of forgiveness of sins and eternal life. The Law is a mirror of the reality of who we are. They do two separate things.

The Gospel is not something to obey, it is something to believe as a promise. The Law's function is to restrain evil, to show us our need for God's grace, and perhaps also to guide our behavior, though primarily what it does is judge and condemn. The law is fulfilled in Christ.

You don't even need to be a Lutheran to see these things, they are confirmed in human experience. A lover doesn't say to their beloved "Love me (obey), or else I'm going to throw you into a fiery pit". Doesn't the Bible say this, "this is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us"? God desires a loving relationship with us, the obedience follows from that, as we are able.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Not sure how you can get that out of what I said. Nowhere did I say I would refuse to pray to God the Father with the help of the Spirit so as to gain understanding of His Word. If you were to go back and read what I said, the understanding that I have now is by the Spirit. I was essentially saying that there was 0% chance of me hearing what you have to say in regards to God's Word. There is a difference.

Oh, and yes.
I will pray for you, too.
For you to see that what you believe in regards to Eternal Security is not true.


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I apologize. I misread what you said. After I went back and reread it. Although it could have been edited.

I am not here to persecute you.


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[EmSw]

The Gospel is the promise of forgiveness of sins and eternal life. The Law is a mirror of the reality of who we are. They do two separate things.

The Gospel is not something to obey, it is something to believe as a promise. The Law's function is to restrain evil, to show us our need for God's grace, and perhaps also to guide our behavior, though primarily what it does is judge and condemn. The law is fulfilled in Christ.

You don't even need to be a Lutheran to see these things, they are confirmed in human experience. A lover doesn't say to their beloved "Love me (obey), or else I'm going to throw you into a fiery pit". Doesn't the Bible say this, "this is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us"? God desires a loving relationship with us, the obedience follows from that, as we are able.

So all those passages I gave on obedience mean nothing to you. You perhaps would like to ignore the one that says Jesus is the author of salvation to those who obey Him. Yes sir, I see people will believer what pleases them, even when scripture says otherwise.

Perhaps you should do a study about obeying the Gospel, and see the future of those who don't. Let me give the passages.

Romans 10:16
But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?”

2 Thessalonians 1:8
in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Peter 4:17
For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God?

I find it amazing you say the Gospel is not something to obey.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I find it amazing you say the Gospel is not something to obey.

Remember Jesus ?
If Jesus visited , who would listen TODAY ?
Not those who refuse to obey Him.
Same as when He walked on earth.

I only mention this, as it is heartbreaking and sorrowful that most people refuse to listen to Jesus TODAY; and they refuse to OBEY HIM.

Jesus said even if someone comes back from the grave, they won't listen.

So don't be surprised/ amazed so many don't listen to Jesus TODAY.

Yhwh sorrows over the deaths of the wicked - there is no joy in death.
If one is saved, ALL the ANGELS REJOICE IN HEAVEN ! (OVER ONE SOUL SAVED ! )
Each soul that is saved eternally is so important - PURCHASED with the PRECIOUSNESS (BLOOD of the MESSIAH)....
Each soul that is lost is devastating loss, ... ... ...

 

[fhansen]

That's a mixture of good news and bad news, actually. All calling this Good News does is muddy the waters of what real goodness is.

Ok? It should be obvious what real goodness is to a Christian, if you care to define it.

... the legal and juridical categories of Roman religion about desperately propitiating an angry God.

Just the opposite, especially since the church doesn't hold to the penal substitution theory of the atonement which was introduced-or reintroduced-by Reformers, forensic concepts abounding.

He loves us just as we are, not as we should be. In fact the only power we will find for transformation of our lives is found in that acceptance, and nowhere else.

God loves man unconditionally-always has. But He didn't create us to sin; He wants us to be who He created us to be, no more, no less. Adam tried to be more than who he was, and ended up in a lie, in sin, less than who he was created to be even as he didn't recognize let alone admit that fact at first. We're here to come to learn that Adam was wrong, that God, alone, is God, and that man is created, an awesome being in his own right, indeed, worthy of profound dignity and respect, but so often not at all living up to it. God wants us to live up to it, He draws us, with love and never with force, into living up to it. But in the end no sinners enter His kingdom; it's impossible because sinners, by definition, are attracted to things other than Him first above all else. Ultimately it's a matter of the human will as it has been since Adam's fall-and God seeks to inform and correct that will.

More law.

As fallen creatures we tend towards revulsion against obedience, against authority, against obligation. But we will always be obliged to be righteous, for the sake of sheer justice. Adam rebelled against it to begin with but we're here to learn to choose life over death, good over evil, God over no God. We're here to learn to choose love, with the help of grace, with the help of God's love. Christianity is not an excuse to do what humans prefer to do anyway, without Christianity, which is to remain in their sin. As we come to grow in the knowledge of God, we come to grow in love of Him. As we grow in love of Him, our obedience follows suit naturally, the right way, the New Covenant way, the Rom 13:8 way. That's very Good News.

 

[Geralt]

issue only comes with arminians considering them as 'christians'..shame, such a low view of the work of the holy spirit.

Are there Christians today who minimize the consequences of sin and ignore morality on some level?

You know, are there believers today who treat serious sins (like murder, hate, adultery, theft, etc.) as if it was like we spilled a glass of milk before God?

I would have to answer both of these questions with a "yes."

Why? Well,, when I hear certain believers speak about sin: It makes it sound like God is saying this to them when they sin:

GOD:

"Aw, that's okay, my child. You just spilled a little milk. I can clean that up. It is not that big of a deal."​

To me, that is what it sounds like whenever hear certain Christians say that a believer can abide in unrepentant sin like (lusting after a woman or lying) and still be saved (as long as they have a belief on Jesus).

They say a believer will be chastised. But is that really a form of punishment? Do not even unbelievers go thru the same challenges as unbelievers?

Is not a "Sin and still be saved" type of belief minimizing sin and ignoring morality on some level?

Is not God good?

Why would God allow His people to get away with doing evil?

Does the work of Christ's death, burial, resurrection, and ascension really undo a person's current rebellion against God?

Why would God allow evil and rebellious people into God's Kingdom?
Why doesn't God just save everyone then?

Anyways, please answer the main question of the thread and cast your vote in the poll.

Thank you for reading.
And may God's love shine upon you.

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