Are there Christians today who minimize the consequences of sin and ignore morality on some level?

Are there Christians today who minimize the consequences of sin and ignore morality on some level?


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FireDragon76

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Ok? It should be obvious what real goodness is to a Christian, if you care to define it.

In my experience some Catholics and Orthodox Christians focus too much on religiously proscribed good works. They will obsess about their prayer life or other pietistic externalities more than deeply contemplating the ethics of their actions. I can't say Protestants are immune to this, but one of the few positives of having less emphasis on tradition, is the freedom of the individual to respond differently to new circumstances.

In fact that is one thing I notice about mainline Protestants (Lutherans, Episcopalians, and Presbyterians) is how much they value both ethics and compassion. It sort of betrays the notion you seem to have that Protestants are antinomian.

Just the opposite, especially since the church doesn't hold to the penal substitution theory of the atonement which was introduced-or reintroduced-by Reformers, forensic concepts abounding.

Go read the Baltimore Catechism. At one time penal satisfaction was taught in Catholic churches.

Mainline Protestant churches don't teach penal substitution either as a rule. I've rarely heard it in a protestant church.

But in the end no sinners enter His kingdom; it's impossible because sinners, by definition, are attracted to things other than Him first above all else.

Please explain the Jesus Prayer, then. If sinners cannot be drawn to God, why even bother praying? I really think its more helpful to say we are simultaneously justified and a sinner. Trying to reduce this to some simplistic transformational explanation of salvation really undercuts the eschatological nature of the Gospel as unconditional promise. It leads to people to under-appreciate how deeply they are compromised by their sinfulness and how much they need a savior. Not just in the past, but in the now.

As fallen creatures we tend towards revulsion against obedience, against authority, against obligation. But we will always be obliged to be righteous, for the sake of sheer justice.

That's not good news. If you preach that sort of thing at people often enough, they will just become discouraged or hypocritical.

Christianity is not an excuse to do what humans prefer to do anyway, without Christianity, which is to remain in their sin.

Like I said, I've been around folks that preach that sort of stuff. It's toxic. I agree with Brennan Manning on this point, whenever people that fall short of our imposed ideals are excluded from the sacramental life and fellowship, it's a scandal against grace. But in Roman Catholicism this is de rigeur.

As we come to grow in the knowledge of God, we come to grow in love of Him. As we grow in love of Him, our obedience follows suit naturally, the right way, the New Covenant way, the Rom 13:8 way. That's very Good News.

I agree we can grow in love for God, but only by focusing on what God has done for us, not on what we can do for God.
 
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I apologize. I misread what you said. After I went back and reread it. Although it could have been edited.

I am not here to persecute you.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Thank you. I appreciate that.

May God bless you.


...
 
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issue only comes with arminians considering them as 'christians'..shame, such a low view of the work of the holy spirit.

Well, you do not have to answer the following questions publicly here: However, how is God working in your life today? How is your life truly different and transformed (born again) being a new creature in Christ? Are you doing all (or a good majority) of what Jesus commands of you within the New Testament? Do you realize there are over 1,050 + Commands in the New Testament?

https://www.cai.org/bible-studies/1050-new-testament-commands

For I have discovered more that are not on their list.

In other words, what I am trying to say that the Bible says we can have an assurance that we know the Lord. What is this assurance? It is if we find ourselves doing what He says. If not, we are self deceiving ourselves.

3 "And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him."
(1 John 2:3-4).

"But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves"
(James 1:22).


...
 
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Geralt

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our assurance is by faith in jesus christ and the work he has done.
the religious show of obedience comes after the fact.

Well, you do not have to answer the following questions pubiclaly here: However, how is God working in your life today? How is your life truly different and transformed (born again) being a new creature in Christ? Are you doing all (or a good majority) of what Jesus commands of you within the New Testament? Do you realize there are over 1,050 + Commands in the New Testament?

https://www.cai.org/bible-studies/1050-new-testament-commands

For I have discovered more that are not on their list.

In other words, what I am trying to say that the Bible says we can have an assurance that we know the Lord. What is this assurance? It is if we find ourselves doing what He says. If not, we are self deceiving ourselves.

3 "And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him."
(1 John 2:3-4).

"But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves"
(James 1:22).

...
 
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fhansen

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In my experience some Catholics and Orthodox Christians focus too much on religiously proscribed good works. They will obsess about their prayer life or other pietistic externalities more than deeply contemplating the ethics of their actions. I can't say Protestants are immune to this, but one of the few positives of having less emphasis on tradition, is the freedom of the individual to respond differently to new circumstances.

In fact that is one thing I notice about mainline Protestants (Lutherans, Episcopalians, and Presbyterians) is how much they value both ethics and compassion. It sort of betrays the notion you seem to have that Protestants are antinomian.



Go read the Baltimore Catechism. At one time penal satisfaction was taught in Catholic churches.

Mainline Protestant churches don't teach penal substitution either as a rule. I've rarely heard it in a protestant church.



Please explain the Jesus Prayer, then. If sinners cannot be drawn to God, why even bother praying? I really think its more helpful to say we are simultaneously justified and a sinner. Trying to reduce this to some simplistic transformational explanation of salvation really undercuts the eschatological nature of the Gospel as unconditional promise. It leads to people to under-appreciate how deeply they are compromised by their sinfulness and how much they need a savior. Not just in the past, but in the now.



That's not good news. If you preach that sort of thing at people often enough, they will just become discouraged or hypocritical.



Like I said, I've been around folks that preach that sort of stuff. It's toxic. I agree with Brennan Manning on this point, whenever people that fall short of our imposed ideals are excluded from the sacramental life and fellowship, it's a scandal against grace. But in Roman Catholicism this is de rigeur.



I agree we can grow in love for God, but only by focusing on what God has done for us, not on what we can do for God.
At the evening of our lives there will be some who had been relying solely on their self-assessed faith/trust, saying, “Didn’t we believe in you Lord; didn’t we even tell others about You? And He’ll say, “There will be many entering the Kingdom of heaven before you, some not even of our fold, who actually did for the least among you, feeding the poor, clothing the naked, loving people. Those are the ones doing my Father’s will, rather than making excuses for why they can’t and/or don’t have to do it.”

Transformation is everything in the Christian faith-it’s the very purpose of it. It’s why we come to believe in Jesus to begin with-because we finally realize we cannot do it on our own-we cannot begin to approach genuine righteous by our own efforts, apart from Him. And people know this generally, whether or not they agree with it theologically, which is a main reason why most Protestants “value both ethics and compassion.” We intuitively know that we’re expected to do the “right thing”.

But it involves our cooperating, our striving and persevering in attaining righteousness or holiness, without which no one will see the Lord (Heb 12:14). And of course this entails our continuing to view ourselves as sinners, our humility, our being people who appreciate “how deeply they are compromised by their sinfulness and how much they need a savior”-Catholics are perhaps accused of overemphasizing this truth in fact.

But that’s the whole beautiful point of it: it’s not either/or; it’s both/and. God will accomplish turning sinners into saints prior to heaven as scripture says they must be, because although sinners must begin to turn to Him now, while still in their sinfulness, His purpose isn’t to leave them there but rather to sanctify them unto salvation. In the end it’s a matter of the human will; once we’ve come to put God above all else, above lesser, created things, loving Him with our whole heart, soul, mind, and strength IOW; then we’ve arrived at the justice we were made for.

And how can we fault such a goal, to do the right thing, to simply be who God created us to be? This is completely impossible without grace, without God, and yet totally possible with Him. We cannot, we must not, deny humanity this purpose, this target. As long as we’re still attracted or captivated by lesser things than God, and by sin, we won’t even have the desire much less the capability of seeing God’s face, of contemplating Him in His immediate beauty and glory and be captivated/enthralled by that. Again it’s a matter of the will, God forming and refining it, we going along with the plan, stumbling at times, falling, getting back up, succeeding in fits and starts, working out our salvation with He who works in us, not without a degree of fear and trembling, until we fully come to truly value and reach the prize. And we can absolutely know and trust that He’s in and behind it all the way.


God’s purpose is to restore man to the heights from which he fell, not leave him wallowing in the mud. Otherwise there wouldn’t have been much reason to let man fall to begin with, let alone to experience all the pain and suffering he’s endured down through the centuries, only for God to rather arbitrarily stop concerning Himself with sin at some later date. God’s in the “business” of perfecting His creation, and all of human history is part of that plan. And when the time was ripe within that history Jesus taught, suffered, died, and rose again in order to bring light into the world, a light which has the purpose of reconciling man with God, of bringing man into that same light, so that he may be fully found, meaning ultimately to know and be fully known.

We can reduce Christianity to being a sort of get-out-of-hell-free-card, for those who believe, but we’ll gut a large part of the faith in the process. Again, God’s purpose wasn’t to create a bunch of sinners and then later save some of them and condemn the rest. His plan is larger than that; He made His universe in a “state of journeying to perfection” as theologians have put it, with creation, itself, participating, by playing it’s part, whatever that may be, in its own perfecting.
 
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FireDragon76

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You are talking about a spirituality of ascent. A spirituality of contemplating God apart from the world. Lutherans are more a spirituality of descent, of being reminded that God is right here in the midst of life, not totally transcending the world full of mundane tasks that need to be done. Taking out the garbage, cooking dinner, talking to a friend. We don't need to go anywhere or do anything to experience that reality. Maybe I'm bit a bit more mystical than most Lutherans take it, but it seems to me in the Lutheran tradition there is a great deal of truth in the emphasis on just finding your vocation in your ordinary life without trying to impose a self-styled spirituality onto it. And I see a lot of Roman Catholics doing that, pining away for the days of Catholics doing great works and heroic religious asceticism. I believe the Jesuits inspired a lot of this sort of spirituality with the denunciation of quietism, attacks on lay mysticism, and a resurgent religious rigorism during the Counter Reformation (not to say some Protestants didn't do that as well, but I really think Luther and Calvin were far more mystical than their followers give credit).
 
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