Are the dead conscious and do the continue to exist?

[Thekla]

Here is an interesting passage, Hebrews 12:22-24:

But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

It seems Heaven, along with Jesus, is full of angels and the spirits of just men made perfect. Is it your contention that the spirits of just men made perfect know nothing? That hardly sounds "perfect" to me.

if it hasn't been said here, see also Thessalonians on the return of Christ with these ...

 

[Philothei]

The faithful that have departed this life are with Christ and know lots more than we do in our limited space and time.

That ^^

 

[RibI]

The faithful that have departed this life are with Christ and know lots more than we do in our limited space and time.

Actually even you know more than the dead do. Have you never read?

Gen. 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his or nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being. (NKJV) Notice man became a living soul or being, he is one he does not have one.
Much of the misunderstanding comes from not knowing what the word translated soul really means. The word is translated from the Hebrew, Nephesh: “Strong’s #5315: properly a breathing creature.” This word is first used to refer to animals in Gen. 1:21,24. Other examples can be found in Gen. 2:19, 9:10,12,15,16 these are all translated creature.
So now that we understand what a soul is and what it is not we can begin to understand Ezk.18:4 “ Behold, all souls are Mine; The soul of the father As well as the soul of the son is Mine; The soul who sins shall die. And again in verse 20 The soul who sins shall die.
God told the truth, like He always does, when He said in Gen. 2:17 that Adam would die.
[“but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”]
Satan, in Gen. 3:4, lied like he always does, when he said they would not die; [“Then the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die”]
Again God says in Gen. 3:19 “In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread Till you return to the ground, For out of it you were taken; For you are dust, And to dust you shall return.” Note there is no indication that we, or a part of us, goes any where else.
Ecc. 3:19-20 For what happens to the sons of men also happens to animals; one thing befalls them both: as one dies, so dies the other. Surely, they all have one breath; man has no advantage over animals, for all is vanity. 20 All go to one place: all are from the dust, and all return to dust. While we’re in Ecc. let’s read Ecc. 9:4,5 But for him who is joined to all the living there is hope, for a living dog is better than a dead lion.
5 For the living know that they will die; But the dead know nothing, And they have no more reward, For the memory of them is forgotten. And again in chapter 9 verse10
Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might; for there is no work or device or knowledge or wisdom in the grave where you are going. Two things here are plainly stated, 1. the grave is where we are going and 2. nothing will be going on there. There simply is no consciousness after death until the resurrection.
In Job 14:14 God inspires Job to ask “If a man dies, shall he live again? All the days of my hard service I will wait, Till my change comes.” Then God inspires the answer in verse 15 “You shall call, and I will answer You; You shall desire the work of Your hands.”
We simply do not have an immortal soul. 1 Cor. 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.” 55 “O Death, where is your sting? O Grave, where is your victory?”

 

[Der Alte]

Actually even you know more than the dead do. Have you never read?[ . . . ]

This is a discussion forum not a place to see who can copy/paste the most stuff. This exact argument was posted in a thread called "Could Christ have lost his Salvation" here two years ago. Could Christ have lost His Salvation? - Page 8 - Christian Forums

 

[Mikecpking]

Which facts exactly do you rely on? In Isaiah 14 there is a long passage about the king of Babylon dying, and according to many the dead know nothing. They are supposedly annihilated, destroyed, gone! God, Himself, speaking, these dead people in שאול/sheol, know something, they move, meet the dead coming to sheol, stir up, raise up, speak and say, etc.

Isa 14:9-11 (KJV)
​

9) Hell [שאול] from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
10) All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
11) Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, [שאול] and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.
[ . . . ]
22) For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD.
​

In this passage God, himself is speaking, and I see a whole lot of shaking going on, moving, rising up, and speaking in . These dead people seem to know something, about something. We know that verses 11 through 14 describe actual historical events, the death of Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babble-on.

Here is another passage where God himself is speaking and people who are dead in sheol, speaking, being ashamed, comforted, etc.

Ezek 32:18-22, 30-31 (KJV)
18) Son of man, [Ezekiel] wail for the multitude of Egypt, and cast them down, even her, and the daughters of the famous nations, unto the nether parts of the earth, with them that go down into the pit.
19) Whom dost thou pass in beauty? go down, and be thou laid with the uncircumcised.
20) They shall fall in the midst of them that are slain by the sword: she is delivered to the sword: draw her and all her multitudes.
21) The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell [שאול] with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.
22) Asshur is there and all her company: his graves are about him: all of them slain, fallen by the sword::[ . . . ]
Eze 32:30-31
(30) There be the princes of the north, all of them, and all the Zidonians, which are gone down with the slain; with their terror they are ashamed of their might; and they lie uncircumcised with them that be slain by the sword, and bear their shame with them that go down to the pit.
(31)Pharaoh shall see them, and shall be comforted over all his multitude, even Pharaoh and all his army slain by the sword, saith the Lord GOD.
​

I quoted scripture that makes it biblical, and very true. God himself is speaking in both passages!

So if you like to quote scripture without contest, here is what I posted earlier so obviously on face value, there is contradiction..so a solution needs to be found. So in Isiah 14:8, we see that trees talk so therefore figurative:

From my post #54
Well lets clear up some biblical facts.

1. The nature of man: Man does not have a 'soul' he is a soul and Genesis 2:7 backs this up:

Genesis 2:7 (King James Version)


7And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

The rbreath of life is given by God and this breath is returned to God on physical death:

Ecclesiastes 12:7 (King James Version)


7Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.





The corpse goes back to its former sate and man is no longer a 'soul'.

He does NOT cease to exist, he becomes a 'rephaim' and his dwelling place is Sheol. This is a change of status away from being a nephesh soul.
Here are the texts and explanation taken from the Jewish encyclopaedia:

Here the dead meet (Ezek. xxxii.; Isa. xiv.; Job xxx. 23) without distinction of rank or condition—the rich and the poor, the pious and the wicked, the old and the young, the master and the slave—if the description in Job iii. refers, as most likely it does, to Sheol. The dead continue after a fashion their earthly life. Jacob would mourn there (Gen. xxxvii. 35, xlii. 38); David abides there in peace (I Kings ii. 6); the warriors have their weapons with them (Ezek. xxxii. 27), yet they are mere shadows ("rephaim"; Isa. xiv. 9, xxvi. 14; Ps. lxxxviii. 5, A. V. "a man that hath no strength"). The dead merely exist without knowledge or feeling (Job xiv. 13; Eccl. ix. 5). Silence reigns supreme; and oblivion is the lot of them that enter therein (Ps. lxxxviii. 13, xciv. 17; Eccl. ix. 10). Hence it is known also as "Dumah," the abode of silence (Ps. vi. 6, xxx. 10, xciv. 17, cxv. 17); and there God is not praised (ib. cxv. 17; Isa. xxxviii. 15). Still, on certain extraordinary occasions the dwellers in Sheol are credited with the gift of making knowntheir feelings of rejoicing at the downfall of the enemy (Isa. xiv. 9, 10). Sleep is their usual lot (Jer. li. 39; Isa. xxvi. 14; Job xiv. 12). Sheol is a horrible, dreary, dark, disorderly land (Job x. 21, 22); yet it is the appointed house for all the living (ib. xxx. 23). Return from Sheol is not expected (II Sam. xii. 23; Job vii. 9, 10; x. 21; xiv. 7 et seq.; xvi. 22; Ecclus. [Sirach] xxxviii. 21); it is described as man's eternal house (Eccl. xii. 5). It is "dust" (Ps. xxx. 10; hence in the Shemoneh 'Esreh, in benediction No. ii., the dead are described as "sleepers in the dust").​

Read more: JewishEncyclopedia.com - SHEOL​

I would also mention that at physical death, scripture is plain when it comes whether the dead are unconcious or not. Lets see what the bible states:​

Psalm 146:4 (King James Version)​

4His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.​

Psalm 115:17 (King James Version)​

17The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.​

Ecclesiastes 9:5-6 (King James Version)​

5For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. 6Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.​

Job 14:10-12 (New International Version - UK)​

10 But man dies and is laid low; he breathes his last and is no more.
11 As water disappears from the sea or a river bed becomes parched and dry, 12 so man lies down and does not rise; till the heavens are no more, men will not awake or be roused from their sleep.​

So its clear that people who have died are unconcious in the grave.​

They also continue to exist.​

So, what next? The resurrection on the last day when Christ comes back.​

Daniel 12:2 (New International Version - UK)​

2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.​

Where is man? In the dust of the earth!​

John 5:28-29 (New International Version - UK)​

28 Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out— those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned.​

Where is man? Not in heaven..in their graves!​

John 3:13 (New International Version - UK)​

13 No-one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven— the Son of Man.​

When does Jesus raise us?​

John 6:
39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.
40 For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.​

Note, Jesus did not promise taht we would go to heaven on death; rather, he would raise us up..on the last day.​

Acts 2:29-34 (New International Version - UK)​

29Brothers, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day.
30 But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that he would place one of his descendants on his throne.
31 Seeing what was ahead, he spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to the grave, nor did his body see decay.
32 God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of the fact.
33 Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear. 34 For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said,​

Peter confirms this!​

Now what does Paul say? He states nothing about the 'asleep in Christ being in heaven, otherwise he would have directly contradicted Jesus in John 5:28-29
1 Thess 4:​

13 Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. ​

14 We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.
15 According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord for ever​

1 cor 15​

51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed—​

52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.​

So guys, speculate all you want. The bottom line there is no such thing as an immortal soul..the bible is clear there is no immaterial, diembodied state called a soul..because its not in scripture. We look to the resurrection of the dead...on the last day​

 

[Rocky1960]

The bottom line there is no such thing as an immortal soul

Rubbish.

 

[Dorothea]

Actually even you know more than the dead do. Have you never read?

Gen. 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his or nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being. (NKJV) Notice man became a living soul or being, he is one he does not have one.
Much of the misunderstanding comes from not knowing what the word translated soul really means. The word is translated from the Hebrew, Nephesh: “Strong’s #5315: properly a breathing creature.” This word is first used to refer to animals in Gen. 1:21,24. Other examples can be found in Gen. 2:19, 9:10,12,15,16 these are all translated creature.
So now that we understand what a soul is and what it is not we can begin to understand Ezk.18:4 “ Behold, all souls are Mine; The soul of the father As well as the soul of the son is Mine; The soul who sins shall die. And again in verse 20 The soul who sins shall die.
God told the truth, like He always does, when He said in Gen. 2:17 that Adam would die.
[“but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”]
Satan, in Gen. 3:4, lied like he always does, when he said they would not die; [“Then the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die”]
Again God says in Gen. 3:19 “In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread Till you return to the ground, For out of it you were taken; For you are dust, And to dust you shall return.” Note there is no indication that we, or a part of us, goes any where else.
Ecc. 3:19-20 For what happens to the sons of men also happens to animals; one thing befalls them both: as one dies, so dies the other. Surely, they all have one breath; man has no advantage over animals, for all is vanity. 20 All go to one place: all are from the dust, and all return to dust. While we’re in Ecc. let’s read Ecc. 9:4,5 But for him who is joined to all the living there is hope, for a living dog is better than a dead lion.
5 For the living know that they will die; But the dead know nothing, And they have no more reward, For the memory of them is forgotten. And again in chapter 9 verse10
Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might; for there is no work or device or knowledge or wisdom in the grave where you are going. Two things here are plainly stated, 1. the grave is where we are going and 2. nothing will be going on there. There simply is no consciousness after death until the resurrection.
In Job 14:14 God inspires Job to ask “If a man dies, shall he live again? All the days of my hard service I will wait, Till my change comes.” Then God inspires the answer in verse 15 “You shall call, and I will answer You; You shall desire the work of Your hands.”
We simply do not have an immortal soul. 1 Cor. 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.” 55 “O Death, where is your sting? O Grave, where is your victory?”

Wow. So you don't believe in Christ's Incarnation, dying on the Cross, and Ressurecting and conquering death by His death? So, you don't believe our souls cannot die as we are alive in Christ (which is in the Scriptures). You do not believe our souls live on after we physically die here? Why do you believe in Christ? What makes you a follower of Him?

 

[Mikecpking]

Rubbish.

Hi Rocky,
Rather than say 'rubbish' where does it state the soul is immortal in the bible?

On the contrary, as the word 'soul' is translated from the Hebrew word 'nephesh', the nephesh clearly dies in these scriptures so there cannot be an immortal soul

Numbers 23:10
Judges 16:30
Ezekiel 18:4

Or you can do your own research:

Google

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

If we believe that God breathed into Adam, then we believe in an immortal soul.

Forgive me...

 

[Dorothea]

Here is an interesting passage, Hebrews 12:22-24:

But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

It seems Heaven, along with Jesus, is full of angels and the spirits of just men made perfect. Is it your contention that the spirits of just men made perfect know nothing? That hardly sounds "perfect" to me.

You might find the translation and interpretation of these verses from my OSB footnotes interesting:

Heb 12:22-24 We are encouraged to approach and touch the heavenly mountain, for we already participate in the Kingdom and dwell there. It is more like Mount Zion and Jerusalem (v. 22) than Sinai (popular Jewish images at that time), for Jerusalem was a habitable place and Zion a place of God's holy presence. This Kingdom is not earthly but heavenly, inhabited by angels (v. 22) as well as men. There is an unending assembly (v. 23), the divinely instituted gathering of God's people of all ages where they know themselves as church. There all are collectively firstborn (v. 23) and have inherited all. There blood (v. 24) cries not for vengeance and further death--as did Abel's (see 11:4; Gen. 4:10)--but for mercy, forgiveness, atonement and unending life. This is the blood of Christ given to us in the Eucharist.

Heaven is not a place of the separation of soul from the body. There, soul and body together are transformed into a better (v. 24) humanity. For the spirits of just men made perfect (v. 23; see 11:40) are in unity with their bodies made perfect: glorified, divinely energized, without the limitations we now experience. This passage is quoted in hymns for both the Trisagion and Funeral services of the Orthodox Church. The blood of sprinkling (v. 24) is that of Christ which effects the New Covenant--real blood, effective for people with a physical nature.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

You might find the translation and interpretation of these verses from my OSB footnotes interesting:

Heb 12:22-24 We are encouraged to approach and touch the heavenly mountain, for we already participate in the Kingdom and dwell there. It is more like Mount Zion and Jerusalem (v. 22) than Sinai (popular Jewish images at that time), for Jerusalem was a habitable place and Zion a place of God's holy presence. This Kingdom is not earthly but heavenly, inhabited by angels (v. 22) as well as men. There is an unending assembly (v. 23), the divinely instituted gathering of God's people of all ages where they know themselves as church. There all are collectively firstborn (v. 23) and have inherited all. There blood (v. 24) cries not for vengeance and further death--as did Abel's (see 11:4; Gen. 4:10)--but for mercy, forgiveness, atonement and unending life. This is the blood of Christ given to us in the Eucharist.

Heaven is not a place of the separation of soul from the body. There, soul and body together are transformed into a better (v. 24) humanity. For the spirits of just men made perfect (v. 23; see 11:40) are in unity with their bodies made perfect: glorified, divinely energized, without the limitations we now experience. This passage is quoted in hymns for both the Trisagion and Funeral services of the Orthodox Church. The blood of sprinkling (v. 24) is that of Christ which effects the New Covenant--real blood, effective for people with a physical nature.

Thank you so much for taking the time to type that out. I know how much time that takes.

I do not know of a source online that contains the footnotes of The Orthodox Study Bible. Do you?

Forgive me...

 

[Mikecpking]

Wow. So you don't believe in Christ's Incarnation, dying on the Cross, and Ressurecting and conquering death by His death? So, you don't believe our souls cannot die as we are alive in Christ (which is in the Scriptures). You do not believe our souls live on after we physically die here? Why do you believe in Christ? What makes you a follower of Him?

Hi Dorothea,
The idea of a soul that is the immaterial essence of a person is simply not biblical. Its nothing against you, but that teaching came with contact to the Jews with pagan Greek philospohy from Plato.
Our hope is the resurrection of the dead. We will be resurrected on the last day, if you look at my previous post explains everything.

 

[Mikecpking]

If we believe that God breathed into Adam, then we believe in an immortal soul.

Forgive me...

<H2 id=passage_heading>Genesis 2:7 (King James Version)


7And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

He bacame a soul, he did not get one!

Ezekiel 18:4 (King James Version)


4Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.




Self explanitory..souls die!

</H2>

 

[Dorothea]

Thank you so much for taking the time to type that out. I know how much time that takes.

I do not know of a source online that contains the footnotes of The Orthodox Study Bible. Do you?

Forgive me...

Thank you. Um, no I don't know, but maybe Thekla does.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Hi Dorothea,
The idea of a soul that is the immaterial essence of a person is simply not biblical. Its nothing against you, but that teaching came with contact to the Jews with pagan Greek philospohy from Plato.
Our hope is the resurrection of the dead. We will be resurrected on the last day, if you look at my previous post explains everything.

So... are you saying that there are physical bodies under the altar of heaven?

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

Forgive me...

 

[Dorothea]

Hi Dorothea,
The idea of a soul that is the immaterial essence of a person is simply not biblical. Its nothing against you, but that teaching came with contact to the Jews with pagan Greek philospohy from Plato.
Our hope is the resurrection of the dead. We will be resurrected on the last day, if you look at my previous post explains everything.

Oh, my long-term memory is coming back to me (because my short-term memory is shot ), but I think I might've had this convo with you in another thread similar to this one.

Yes, I remember your comparing the soul leaving the body with Greek pagan beliefs. I explained your understandings to my priest, and he said (Paraphrasing) basically that yes, the pagans believed in separation of the soul from the body, but the difference here is that the soul/spirit is where the life is. Once it leaves the body, the body is physically "dead," lying in the tomb, while the soul/spirit is with God. In the pagan belief, BOTH the body and soul are alive separately. We don't believe that.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

<H2 id=passage_heading>Genesis 2:7 (King James Version)


7And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

He bacame a soul, he did not get one!

Ezekiel 18:4 (King James Version)


4Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.




Self explanitory..souls die!

</H2>

Lol! That's it? That's you're argument?

Forgive me...

 

[RibI]

Wow. So you don't believe in Christ's Incarnation, dying on the Cross, and Ressurecting and conquering death by His death? So, you don't believe our souls cannot die as we are alive in Christ (which is in the Scriptures). You do not believe our souls live on after we physically die here? Why do you believe in Christ? What makes you a follower of Him?

You have to be kidding!
This has to be some kind of a joke.

 

[Fotina]

Apparently, you rely on indications. That is why you are mistaken. Scripture is quite plain that that the dead are not conscious. I rely on facts.

What do you say to this Scripture?
1 Peter 3:18-21 (New International Version, ©2010)

18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. 19 After being made alive,[a] he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— 20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God.[b] It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

 

[Dorothea]

You have to be kidding!
This has to be some kind of a joke.

I'm sorry, but that's the impression you gave me in your post. You don't believe in the immortal soul that God gave us. What was I to think?