prodromos

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You might consider a vocation at Meteora. They require more monastics and at the same time lack enough to have any more than two or three cantors at the still-operational monasteries, unlike the vast forces available on Mount Athos.
The monks at Simonopetra on Mount Athos were originally from Meteora. They left because the constant flow of tourists prevented them from being able to follow the liturgical calendar or to have sufficient peace and quite to pray. The few who have remained at Meteora are truly martyrs.
 
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HenryM

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...an interesting example of the Orthodox phenomena. Not only can we not innovate (which is good in that it means there will never be a Praise and Worship band in the Orthodox Church), but our main internal trajectory is retrograde.

A small comment on this. I don't see a problem in non-innovativeness per se, while at the same time it seems shame to me that non-innovativeness as principle is forced upon all Orthodox Christians.
 
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Paul Yohannan

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A small comment on this. I don't see a problem in non-innovativeness per se, while at the same time it seems shame to me that non-innovativeness as principle is forced upon all Orthodox Christians.

Why does that strike you as a shame? Part of the pleasure of being Orthodox derives from a certainty that the faith will not be lightly altered in accord woth the caprices of secular society.
 
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HenryM

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Why does that strike you as a shame? Part of the pleasure of being Orthodox derives from a certainty that the faith will not be lightly altered in accord woth the caprices of secular society.

Maybe innovativeness/non-innovativeness is not the best term. Variety seems more appropriate. Meaning, more freedom in variety to worship within the Church.

As was mentioned in this thread, New Testament gives very little in terms of rules on how to worship. And that's great, because it's focused on what's most important - our souls. So, if there is narrowly defined set of rules to follow within the worship service, combined with the strictness in following that ruleset, that's not the question of stopping inovation, but stopping different forms of worship expressions to exist. Some people might feel left out. Again, not because they are "innovators", but because their souls yearn for something maybe even slightly different. In that sense it seems shame.
 
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Paul Yohannan

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Maybe innovativeness/non-innovativeness is not the best term. Variety seems more appropriate. Meaning, more freedom in variety to worship within the Church.

As was mentioned in this thread, New Testament gives very little in terms of rules on how to worship. And that's great, because it's focused on what's most important - our souls. So, if there is narrowly defined set of rules to follow within the worship service, combined with the strictness in following that ruleset, that's not the question of stopping inovation, but stopping different forms of worship expressions to exist. Some people might feel left out. Again, not because they are "innovators", but because their souls yearn for something maybe even slightly different. In that sense it seems shame.

The word "Orthodox" means "correct glorification/worship." To us, the worship we have represents the continuation of what we consider to be the New Testament model. Correct worship is of vital importance to our salvation, which is understood as being of body as well as soul. If one disagrees with the Orthodox on any of this, one should join a different church.
 
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HenryM

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The word "Orthodox" means "correct glorification/worship." To us, the worship we have represents the continuation of what we consider to be the New Testament model.

And yet, in New Testament almost nothing is given in terms of physical rules for glorification/worship. Are you speaking of non-existent model?

And who is "us"? Rules of worship are defined or set to be followed by very small circle of people. Is that the "us"? Or are all Orthodox Christians "us"? If all are "us" where is everybody's say, to the last voice? Are "commons" just to follow what's forced? Is the rule of force what Christ commanded?

Anyway, to not meander, this issue is just the simptom of THE issue: there are divided Churches which represent God, who is love. Love cannot be represented through division. As a result, all Churches are on their knees as long as they are divided. Going from one such Church to the other doesn't solve anything.

Jesus told us to love our enemies, yet we are divided amongst each other. But, that's the world we live in. As Jesus says, the last will be first, and the first will be last.
 
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Paul Yohannan

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And yet, in New Testament almost nothing is given in terms of physical rules for glorification/worship.

Obviously we disagree.

Are you speaking of non-existent model?

No.

And who is "us"?

The Orthodox Church.

Rules of worship are defined or set to be followed by very small circle of people.

In our case, the Typikon and various OO equivalents incorporate the liturgical work of such illustrious Christians as Sts. John Chrysostom, Basil, Ephrem, Romanos the Melodist, Gregory Diologos, Gregory of Nazianzus, Cyril of Jerusalem, Cyril of Alexandria, in the OO case Jacob of Sarugh, and so on. Separated by centuries.

Is that the "us"? Or are all Orthodox Christians "us"? If all are "us" where is everybody's say, to the last voice? Are "commons" just to follow what's forced? Is the rule of force what Christ commanded?

The Orthodox Church is not a democracy, and there is no scriptural proof of a congregational-democratic polity being in any sense prescribed.

Anyway, to not meander, this issue is just the simptom of THE issue: there are divided Churches which represent God, who is love. Love cannot be represented through division. As a result, all Churches are on their knees as long as they are divided. Going from one such Church to the other doesn't solve anything.

I agree, but I also support religious freedom. In any case, to be Orthodox one has to agree with Orthodoxy.

Jesus told us to love our enemies, yet we are divided amongst each other. But, that's the world we live in. As Jesus says, the last will be first, and the first will be last.

None of this offers us any compelling reason to embrace pietism.
 
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GreekOrthodox

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Dear Henry,
We Orthodox can modify the liturgy, prayers and such if needed. Changes do come from clergy and laity working together. For example, until the 20th century, we prayed for "travelers by land and sea". Now that we fly, we've changed that to "land, sea and air". It might be a hymn for a new saint, or a response to some event. We're still arguing 100 years after we shifted some of our feasts to match the Gregorian calendar. The Russian Orthodox (and most of Orthodoxy) never changed so they just celebrated New Years / The Feast of the Circumcision. We just don't have a need to follow the latest church growth trend. I recall one anecdote of a Soviet official challenging a priest that only old women came to church and what would happen in 50 years when they were all dead. The priest replied that we would have a new generation of old women continuing to worship.
 
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buzuxi02

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You might consider a vocation at Meteora. They require more monastics and at the same time lack enough to have any more than two or three cantors at the still-operational monasteries, unlike the vast forces available on Mount Athos.
Music has never been my strong point. The monks of Meteora would toss me over the side of the cliff. Heck I don't even know what your writing about 8th tone, 4 harmonies, blah blah. It's all Greek to me.
I'd be happy with the greek-Americans getting rid of those God-awful organs. Outside of use in a horror movie the organ must be the most useless instrument ever invented. One of the reasons I like the Holy Thursday Liturgy of the Reading of the 12 gospels is that it's all chanting. No choirs, no musical conductor, just a pair of good chanters.
 
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HenryM

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Dear Henry,
We Orthodox can modify the liturgy, prayers and such if needed...

Thank you for input.

Accidentally we end up talking about Orthodox Church. But Orthodox Church is not called out here. We are all sinners.

"But I say to you that you must not oppose those who want to hurt you. If people slap you on your right cheek, you must turn the left cheek to them as well." When other Church shoved their demands to our faces, we reciprocated. We have sinned.

"When they wish to haul you to court and take your shirt, let them have your coat too." When other Church wanted to take what's ours, we didn't let them. We have sinned.

"When they force you to go one mile, go with them two." When other Church wanted for us to bow to their demands, we stood tall. We have sinned.

On a brighter note, I do know Orthodox music for a long time and like it very much. Just these days I was listening to Cherubym Hymn (Petros Peloponnesios' version) quite frequently throughout the day. I have to say, though, in the last couple of hours I started to listen to a form of music I didn't even know existed - one poster mentioned sacred harp singing, I looked it up and found it marvelous. Our God is great to us sinners.
 
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Paul Yohannan

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They would make sure it was in the net they use to hoist up supplies ;)

That sounds like fun.

Also, why can't bungee jumping be a valid monastic obedience? ;)
 
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throughfiierytrial

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Some opponents on using instruments say that instruments are "devilish". Well, they can be. But when it comes to communicating, nothing can be more "devilish" than human tongue. It's not about the tool, but how it's used. Pure heart speaks with pure tongue and plays instrument with pure touch. And, instrumental music can't lie. It's always naked before the listener. What you hear is what it is. If what is played on an instrument sounds divine, it is divine.

Some say that instruments are only mentioned in Old Testament (even though they are not, since use of psalms is instructed in New Testament, and with it, use of instruments is instructed too), and ask if we should also sacrifice animals, as sacrifices were instructed in Old Testament too. Somehow, playing an instrument from your heart, gracefully to God, is the same as slaughtering an animal over altar.

Anyway, there are a lot of arguments that show that instruments are allowed in worship. But it's tiring to even think about them. It tells us something that this is an issue in the first place.

By the way, basically all great composers are instrumentalists. If you want to write choral music for four voices, for example, you sit at keyboard instrument or take stringed instrument in your hand, and compose on it, so you can hear it - and shape it - immediately. Sergei Rachmaninov, one of the great Russian composers from the last century, who wrote Russian Orthodox Liturgy (for choir), was virtuoso pianist. If instruments are good to create God worshipping music, they are probably good to perform it too. Bach believed that, thankfully. I have searched for information about famous Byzantine composers from earlier times, and couldn't find if they did or didn't use instruments for composing their choral works. But it's safe to say that if they didn't compose layered choral music with the help of an instrument, they probably didn't compose the best music they could. At the very least, you need some instrument to get the intonation right, unless you have perfect pitch (which is a rare physical talent, and God worship doesn't depend on a rare physical talent). So, just a quick glance finds instrument as seed for singing worship. As such, it's significant part of worship from the beginning.

Finally, a word about performing. In my view, if instruments are played for communal worship, players shouldn't be at the center stage, for everybody to see them. Worship is not about the players, so they should be, preferably, out of sight. On balcony or obscured in some other way. They are there to serve worship, gracefully, not to be worshipped themselves.

One can identify worship-music (with various instruments) in the Psalms. Why would that have changed w/o noting it in the text of the N.T.??
 
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throughfiierytrial

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Yes. Furthermore, more than 20 psalms instruct use of instruments. If it's hated by God, why is it not in New Testament as a command or expression?
Say before Jesus was arrested they sang a hymn...music??? Why wouldn't one be allowed to assume they had musical accompaniment??
Jesus says to a crowd...
Jesus went on to say, “To what, then, can I compare the people of this generation? What are they like? They are like children sitting in the marketplace and calling out to each other:

“‘We played the pipe for you,
and you did not dance;
we sang a dirge,
and you did not cry.’
---Luke 7:31-32

This was to emphasize the somberness or seriousness of the decisions Jesus was calling upon them to make...the people didn't get it; He would not be an earthly King as they presumed, but rather a Heavenly King judging the good and the bad according to their faith and deeds.
(But anyway, He/Jesus mentions music)
 
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throughfiierytrial

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Say before Jesus was arrested they sang a hymn...music??? Why wouldn't one be allowed to assume they had musical accompaniment??
Jesus says to a crowd...
Jesus went on to say, “To what, then, can I compare the people of this generation? What are they like? They are like children sitting in the marketplace and calling out to each other:

“‘We played the pipe for you,
and you did not dance;
we sang a dirge,
and you did not cry.’
---Luke 7:31-32

This was to emphasize the somberness or seriousness of the decisions Jesus was calling upon them to make...the people didn't get it; He would not be an earthly King as they presumed, but rather a Heavenly King judging the good and the bad according to their faith and deeds.
(But anyway, He/Jesus mentions music)
Addition...
Now, brothers and sisters, if I come to you and speak in tongues, what good will I be to you, unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or word of instruction? Even in the case of lifeless things that make sounds, such as the pipe or harp, how will anyone know what tune is being played unless there is a distinction in the notes? Again, if the trumpet does not sound a clear call, who will get ready for battle?
--I Corinthians 14:6-8
(so music in church is still alluded to.)
 
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Blade

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When Jesus road in.. if they tried to keep the people quite then even the ROCKS would cry out. Creation is ALIVE! Everything GOD makes is LIFE. And when it comes to worship...why are people still concerned what MAN thinks or wants or likes? True worshipers will worship HIm in spirit and truth. <------this is what SO MANY believers have no clue what it means. Pray always and in the spirit. Again.. so many have no clue what it means.

HAHA.. Israel did not just sit and sing when they worshiped GOD! They new how to get down! Jump, shout dance.. you name it. And if you dont like that.. Praise GOD! Its HIM not man you are pleasing.
 
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Dave-W

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Again, I am not saying, "You are certainly wrong" and know that you cannot say "I am certainly right": as such, you would be making a terrible decision in doing something that may well be leading to "rule-breaking" and condemnation in the end. In other words, are you willing to bet your soul that you are certainly right?
Indeed I am. It is certainly clear to me and many others that the biblical narrative lends itself to a singular ongoing unfolding story with no hard break.
 
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Ken Rank

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You mean to tell me that there are actually sects the forbid the playing of musical instruments? Seems sects really go out of their way, fabricating regulations like the Pharisees, to make their sect distinct from other sects and to justify unnecessarily creating divisions among Christians.
The Church of Christ (most of them) do not use instruments.

From what I have gathered, the practice came from the notion that first century Christians did not play music when they gathered. This might have been true, there is enough evidence in places like the Talmud to suggest this is correct. But why the Talmud? What context is missing here? By and large, first century Christians were Jews, and according to Acts 21:20, as many as 20,000+ Jews believed Yeshua was messiah AND continued to remain zealous for the Law. (The word for "many thousands in that verse is murias, which is the word for 10,000 and it is in plural) The reason they did not play instruments is because Jewish interpretation at that time would have sided with the playing of an instrument to be "work." Therefore, since they continued to meet on Sabbath (most of them did, few kept Sunday after the resurrection, the Sunday practice wouldn't become widespread until after the Bar Kokhba Revolt of 132-135AD) they then refrained from playing music on that day.
 
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