Are images (icons and statues) forbidden by the gospel?

[Xeno.of.athens]

This is why God warned Israel not to associate Himself with any material object, such as an idol. God is not to be confused with material objects, though He can appear as a spirit within a material object. The idea is to retain who God is, and not to confuse who He is with something strictly created.

In the Old Testament there was a prohibition on creating any images of God. That prohibition is summarised in the ten commandments. But God did not prohibit the use of images of angels because he commanded that the curtains in the tabernacle have angels on them and he commanded that the arc of the covenant have two angels on the mercy seat (lid) of the arc. And for the healing of serpent bites, he commanded that the Israelites look to the image of a serpent on a pole. So, what is prohibited in the Old Testament is images of God. But in the New Testament God has become a man, Jesus Christ, and there is no prohibition on making images of Christ.

(1 Corinthians 11:7 ESV) For a man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God, but woman is the glory of man.

(2 Corinthians 4:4 ESV) In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

(Colossians 1:15 ESV) He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.

 

[RandyPNW]

In the Old Testament there was a prohibition on creating any images of God. That prohibition is summarised in the ten commandments. But God did not prohibit the use of images of angels because he commanded that the curtains in the tabernacle have angels on them and he commanded that the arc of the covenant have two angels on the mercy seat (lid) of the arc. And for the healing of serpent bites, he commanded that the Israelites look to the image of a serpent on a pole. So, what is prohibited in the Old Testament is images of God. But in the New Testament God has become a man, Jesus Christ, and there is no prohibition on making images of Christ.

I agree. Works of art are not prohibited--not even religious works of art. It is trying to depict God as something strictly created that is prohibited. Christ was material, but he was also a revelation from God, portraying God Himself. He was the personal God in human flesh--not a material idol presenting God as a false god.

Israel, in their corruption, worshiped the stars and anything they wished God to represent. They didn't let God represent Himself in the forms He wished to assume. God had assumed the form of angels or men--theophanies. There was no prohibition on that. It was the corruption of who God was in the form of things *not God* that was prohibited. It was a confusion of God with created things.

 

[Jipsah]

Some people do worship them .

I can't see much of that happening. Hard to imagine someone looking at an icon of our Lord ansd saying "Icon of Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me a sinner." Or looking at a statue of the Blessed Virgin and saying "Holy statue of Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners."

It's real easy to say, "Yeah, them Catholics, they worship them statues" if you don't really think about what that might actually mean. "Little wooden bead on my rosary who art in Heaven, blessed be thy name...". Yeah.... no.

 

[Jipsah]

But there are, in the world, all kinds of people who don't know God personally, and attribute to Him the ability to reside in material reality.

Know any who aren't made of straw?

I'm sure there are many, many nominal Christians who likewise have a strange view of who God is.

Sure. You might even be one of them, quien sabe?

 

[Jipsah]

Hmmm... ​

IKR

 

[Jipsah]

The Church was given the gift of discernment.

Yeah, I've known people who had it, or so they claimed. Knew stuff about folks that those folks didn't know themselves. Sniff out someone else's sins in a New York minute.

 

[Jipsah]

Yes

If you haven't already chucked yours, now's the time.

 

[Hammster]

If you haven't already chucked yours, now's the time.

I’ve never had one.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

I can't see much of that happening. Hard to imagine someone looking at an icon of our Lord ansd saying "Icon of Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me a sinner." Or looking at a statue of the Blessed Virgin and saying "Holy statue of Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners."

It's real easy to say, "Yeah, them Catholics, they worship them statues" if you don't really think about what that might actually mean. "Little wooden bead on my rosary who art in Heaven, blessed be thy name...". Yeah.... no.

I agree. I haven't ever encountered anyone who worships an image be it a icon or a statue.

 

[Fervent]

Do you believe that icons and statues are idols and should be disposed of?

Not at all, and opposition to their use is often effectively a denial of the incarnation.

 

[eleos1954]

I can't see much of that happening. Hard to imagine someone looking at an icon of our Lord ansd saying "Icon of Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me a sinner." Or looking at a statue of the Blessed Virgin and saying "Holy statue of Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners."

It's real easy to say, "Yeah, them Catholics, they worship them statues" if you don't really think about what that might actually mean. "Little wooden bead on my rosary who art in Heaven, blessed be thy name...". Yeah.... no.

Well ... according to the OT it happened ... so why would we not think it's happening today?

 

[dzheremi]

Well ... according to the OT it happened ... so why would we not think it's happening today?

Why does that follow? Plenty of things were happening in the OT that aren't happening today.

 

[RandyPNW]

Know any who aren't made of straw?

Sure. You might even be one of them, quien sabe?

That was pretty rude! Do you lack discernment yourself? If we have faith there is a way we can let it be known in our words and actions. Sometimes it gets confusing because we don't always use wisdom, or perhaps we're just having a bad day and look bad?

Sarcasm can be useful, but only if it doesn't slam the door shut on edification.

 

[RandyPNW]

Yeah, I've known people who had it, or so they claimed. Knew stuff about folks that those folks didn't know themselves. Sniff out someone else's sins in a New York minute.

Are you trying to be sarcastic and accuse me of being judgmental? I do think we have to be careful not to judge people by appearances, but we are also given the gift of discernment. A spirit and an attitude can indeed be "sniffed out," if needed, and relegated to somewhere else to keep things peaceful.

 

[Jipsah]

Well ... according to the OT it happened ... so why would we not think it's happening today?

People said Crucifix, have mercy on me?? Really?

 

[Jipsah]

That was pretty rude! Do you lack discernment yourself?

Dunno. You're apparently an extraordinarily discerning kinda guy, you tell me.

Sarcasm can be useful, but only if it doesn't slam the door shut on edification.

Sarcasm is a very direct way of making a point.

 

[Jipsah]

Are you trying to be sarcastic and accuse me of being judgmental?

I simply stated facts from my own experience with people who were expert in finding specks in other people's eyes whether there were any there or not.

Works both ways sometimes. I remember a lady who said that she could discern that I was surpassingly spiritual, but it was primarily because the SS kids, and especially hers, all liked me.

I do think we have to be careful not to judge people by appearances, but we are also given the gift of discernment. A spirit and an attitude can indeed be "sniffed out," if needed, and relegated to somewhere else to keep things peaceful.

Yeah, the result of that "gift" usually seems to correspond almost 100% with how muich or little the discerner likes the person being discerned. Who'd a thunk it?

 

[RandyPNW]

I simply stated facts from my own experience with people who were expert in finding specks in other people's eyes whether there were any there or not.

Works both ways sometimes. I remember a lady who said that she could discern that I was surpassingly spiritual, but it was primarily because the SS kids, and especially hers, all liked me.

Yeah, the result of that "gift" usually seems to correspond almost 100% with how muich or little the discerner likes the person being discerned. Who'd a thunk it?

That's just pure cynicism, though I share your concerns. I just think it is equally bad to judge me from the start, as if you know I'm just like all the bad people you've experienced. I suppose if 99 out of 100 people you've experienced show favoritism towards their kids you would think I'm the same. But it doesn't start us out well in any conversation, does it? Give me some credit for being at least as insightful as you are? Thanks.

 

[Jipsah]

That's just pure cynicism

I prefer to think of it as realism. I've seen too much of the phony stuff. Faith healers who cure every undiagnosed disease in the congregation, purveyors of "words from the Lord" which are patently untrue, people who interpret their like or dislike for people to be the product of spiritual discernment, people who hold forth with "prophecies" that are a recitation of religious platitudes (often in mangled Elizabethan English), on and on. I have little time for that sort of thing now.

I just think it is equally bad to judge me from the start, as if you know I'm just like all the bad people you've experienced.

Hey, afaik you're a paragon of virtue. And I'd be the last to prevent you discerning away to your heart's content. But I'd be unlikely to put much stock in it, however sincere you may be. Cynicism? Sure, why not, it's as good a word as any. But I don't do the "spiritual" thing anymore.

In a line I stole from Via Crucis, "I'm not spiritual, I'm religious". I place little importance on feels, and find them untrustworthy. It's an atitude that has served me well in causing me to steer clear of "spiritual" flapdoodle that caused many others a lot of grief.

I suppose if 99 out of 100 people you've experienced show favoritism towards their kids you would think I'm the same. But it doesn't start us out well in any conversation, does it?

Missing the point rather pointedly, looks like. The lady I spoke of legitimately thought I was an excellent Christian because she liked me. The reason for liking me could have been anything, being nice to her kids just happened to be her reason. It could as easily been my singing voice (on second thought, no). my vaguely exotic appearance (although that usually makes people ask me if I'm a Buddhist), or some other completely irrelevant "reason". But she was fully persuaded that it was her spiritual spider sense allowing her to discern me as being uncommonly spiritual.

So yeah, when people start talking about "spiritual discernment" I generally don't put much, if any, stock in it.

Give me some credit for being at least as insightful as you are? Thanks.

Hey, you may be the most insightful guy in the continental US, but I'm content to leave that possibility untested.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Well ... according to the OT it happened ... so why would we not think it's happening today?

God spoke with a loud booming voice from Mount Sinai in the Old testament and that never happened again in the Old Testament. Matter of fact, the only time I can recall where God spoke with an audible voice from heaven after that was to Jesus. It hasn't happened since in my hearing, how about yours?