Are images (icons and statues) forbidden by the gospel?

[RandyPNW]

Can you think of anybody that you know personally who does this?

I don't hang out with idolaters! But there are, in the world, all kinds of people who don't know God personally, and attribute to Him the ability to reside in material reality. I'm sure there are many, many nominal Christians who likewise have a strange view of who God is.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

I'm sure there are many, many nominal Christians who likewise have a strange view of who God is.

But here you speculate rather than know.

 

[dzheremi]

...and attribute to Him the ability to reside in material reality...

Hmmm... ​

 

[RandyPNW]

Hmmm... ​

Could you translate that for me? Thanks.

 

[RandyPNW]

But here you speculate rather than know.

No, this isn't speculation. I've been a Christian life-long, and have seen many self-proclaimed Christians with the weirdest of views. One man visited with me in my home for a time, claiming to be a Christian. He carried, I think, both a Bible an a Bhagavad Gita. He didn't know the difference between a Christian and a Hindu.

Have you read the latest polls on what so-called "Christians" actually believe with respect to conventional Christian doctrine? Here is an example survey of American "Evangelicals": CLICK

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Have you read the latest polls on what so-called "Christians" actually believe with respect to conventional Christian doctrine? Here is an example survey of American "Evangelicals": CLICK

I have read such surveys, but that is just data not knowledge. Knowing who is saved and who is not is not our calling in life, so I refrain, as much as I can allowing for my own sins, from attempting to decide who is and who is not a "real Christian"

 

[RandyPNW]

I have read such surveys, but that is just data not knowledge. Knowing who is saved and who is not is not our calling in life, so I refrain, as much as I can allowing for my own sins, from attempting to decide who is and who is not a "real Christian"

Actually, sometimes we can indeed tell if someone is Saved or Lost. Jesus identified certain individuals as a "child of Satan," and so did Paul. People come to a place, at times, where they become so blasphemous that they actually choose to reject the Holy Spirit for all time. Nothing remains to convince them otherwise--they have contempt for God Himself. Who then can reach them?

But it is not our job to decide, whoever they may be, when they will die, or what punishment they should suffer. This judgment should be left in the hands of God.

On the other hand, we should in fact know whether we are Saved ourselves or not. And we should be able to discern others who are truly Saved.

Granted, some people are sort of in the middle, it being that the most wretched can be saved, and the most noble be lost. We sometimes have to wait because judgment comes quick to some, and later to others.

The Church was given the gift of discernment. We should use it.

 

[Jan001]

Some people do worship them ... it's much wiser just not to have them and then one don't have to be concerned about it.

Deuteronomy 4:16 Don’t ruin everything and make an idol for yourself: a form of any image, any likeness—male or female—

"Photos" of family members, whether these people are dead or alive, are modern day "images". An image can only become an idol if people believe that the photo is a god and so they worship the photo as their god.

I don't personally know anyone who worships the family members who are depicted in his photo or who worships the photo itself. Our photos (images) are simply used by us to remind us of family members that we care about so that we can bring to mind how much they mean to us and to reminisce about the good times we shared.

A photo becomes an idol to a person only if he worships it because he believes it is a god.

 

[RandyPNW]

Deuteronomy 4:16 Don’t ruin everything and make an idol for yourself: a form of any image, any likeness—male or female—

"Photos" of family members, whether these people are dead or alive, are modern day "images". An image can only become an idol if people believe that the photo is a god and so they worship the photo as their god.

I don't personally know anyone who worships the family members who are depicted in his photo or who worships the photo itself. Our photos (images) are simply used by us to remind us of family members that we care about so that we can bring to mind how much they mean to us and to reminisce about the good times we shared.

A photo becomes an idol to a person only if he worships it because he believes it is a god.

That's true. However, images of family members are a reminder of how important these people are to us. We should indeed love our family members. But we should not love them more than God. When we place people ahead of God we make an "idol" of them.

I, a few years back, had a former board member of my church attempt to destroy our pastor and remake the church according to his wishes. I supported the pastor, though flawed, and this member, along with a group of rebels showed me a laptop full of "evidence" on how bad the pastor was.

There was really nothing there! In his mind, mild flaws, which we all have, are unforgiveable. He wanted to chuck the whole church leadership, which is eventually what happened.

But before that happened he got in my face, pointed straight at me, and said, "My kids and my family can do no wrong!" The church, he thought, was challenging his family's leadership in the church, which to some degree was accurate. But in putting his own family above peaceable negotiations, it became impossible for our denomination to suport him. And he was officially ejected.

We dare not put people, whether family members, friends, or ourselves, ahead of obeying God, even if it "hurts." If Jesus died on the cross to forgive us, we should be able to tolerate a little mischief before trying to blow the whole thing up!

In other words, idolatry goes deeper than mere "images." It has to do with putting those images ahead of obedience to God, or not.

 

[JulieB67]

Do you believe that icons and statues are idols and should be disposed of?

If one is praying to or worshipping them, yes.

 

[Jan001]

All good points. Thanks.

Thank you for commenting.

 

[Jan001]

That's true. However, images of family members are a reminder of how important these people are to us. We should indeed love our family members. But we should not love them more than God. When we place people ahead of God we make an "idol" of them.

I, a few years back, had a former board member of my church attempt to destroy our pastor and remake the church according to his wishes. I supported the pastor, though flawed, and this member, along with a group of rebels showed me a laptop full of "evidence" on how bad the pastor was.

There was really nothing there! In his mind, mild flaws, which we all have, are unforgiveable. He wanted to chuck the whole church leadership, which is eventually what happened.

But before that happened he got in my face, pointed straight at me, and said, "My kids and my family can do no wrong!" The church, he thought, was challenging his family's leadership in the church, which to some degree was accurate. But in putting his own family above peaceable negotiations, it became impossible for our denomination to suport him. And he was officially ejected.

We dare not put people, whether family members, friends, or ourselves, ahead of obeying God, even if it "hurts." If Jesus died on the cross to forgive us, we should be able to tolerate a little mischief before trying to blow the whole thing up!

In other words, idolatry goes deeper than mere "images." It has to do with putting those images ahead of obedience to God, or not.

The following Semitic hyperbole supports your last three sentences:

Luke 14:26 “If any one comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple.

 

[honey badger]

Do you believe that icons and statues are idols and should be disposed of?

as with all things scriptural, all judgement must be turned within ... any truth held to becomes a lie ...

 

[Jan001]

Here is an example of an object that was first created and used for a good purpose but later this same object was used for an evil purpose and therefore it had to be destroyed:

Good use of bronze serpent

Numbers 21:8-10 And the Lord said to Moses, “Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and every one who is bitten, when he sees it, shall live.” 9 So Moses made a bronze serpent, and set it on a pole; and if a serpent bit any man, he would look at the bronze serpent and live.


Evil use of this same bronze serpent

Later on, the Israelites believed this same bronze serpent was a god and they named it Nehushtan and they burned incense to it.

2 Kings 18:3-5 He (Hezekiah) did what was right in the Lord’s sight, just as David his father had done. 4 It was he who removed the high places, shattered the pillars, cut down the asherah, and smashed the bronze serpent Moses had made, because up to that time the Israelites were burning incense to it. (It was called Nehushtan.) 5 He put his trust in the Lord, the God of Israel; and neither before nor after him was there anyone like him among all the kings of Judah.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Could you translate that for me? Thanks.

John 1:14.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[RandyPNW]

John 1:14.

-CryptoLutheran

That from post #23. I'm trying to determine what the poster meant by "Hmmmmm?" There is no reason to hide behind obscure writing--we're among brothers in the Lord. If he is just asserting that Jesus is God become flesh, I certainly agree with that. I don't think that was the point. I just can't discuss it or explain it with the obscure speech.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Actually, sometimes we can indeed tell if someone is Saved or Lost. Jesus identified certain individuals as a "child of Satan," and so did Paul. People come to a place, at times, where they become so blasphemous that they actually choose to reject the Holy Spirit for all time. Nothing remains to convince them otherwise--they have contempt for God Himself. Who then can reach them?

But it is not our job to decide, whoever they may be, when they will die, or what punishment they should suffer. This judgment should be left in the hands of God.

On the other hand, we should in fact know whether we are Saved ourselves or not. And we should be able to discern others who are truly Saved.

Granted, some people are sort of in the middle, it being that the most wretched can be saved, and the most noble be lost. We sometimes have to wait because judgment comes quick to some, and later to others.

The Church was given the gift of discernment. We should use it.

At the last judgement I am confident there will be many surprises.

 

[ViaCrucis]

That from post #23. I'm trying to determine what the poster meant by "Hmmmmm?" There is no reason to hide behind obscure writing--we're among brothers in the Lord. If he is just asserting that Jesus is God become flesh, I certainly agree with that. I don't think that was the point. I just can't discuss it or explain it with the obscure speech.

The comment you made was

But there are, in the world, all kinds of people who don't know God personally, and attribute to Him the ability to reside in material reality. I'm sure there are many, many nominal Christians who likewise have a strange view of who God is.

From this it appeared that you believe that to say God has "the ability to reside in material things" is a "strange view of who God is", that this is a wrong view of God, that it is not a Christian belief that God can reside in material things.

But that's the opposite of the case: The Christian view is that God can "reside in material things". The Incarnation is evidence of that: God became human.

Colossians 2:9 explicitly tells us "in Christ the fullness of deity dwelt bodily".

To quote one of my favorite Christmas songs,

"Mary, did you know that your baby boy
Will give sight to a blind man?
Mary, did you know that your baby boy
Would calm a storm with His hand?
Did you know that your baby boy
Has walked where angels trod,
And when you kiss your little baby
You’ve kissed the face of God?
Mary, did you know?"

The Incarnation means that God united Himself with His creation--with "material things".

All of this without even getting into other aspects of ordinary Christian doctrine: Jesus took bread, broke it, and said, "This is My body", He took the cup of wine and said, "This is My blood of the new covenant"; Paul further saying to the Corinthians, "Is not the cup of blessing which we bless partaking of the blood of Christ? Is not the bread which we break partaking of the body of Christ?" (1 Corinthians 10:16).

In the Eucharist there is God, our Lord Jesus Christ Himself, "residing in material things" because He says it is His own flesh and blood.

That's normative, ordinary, standard Christian teaching.

The "strange view of God" would be to say that God does not or cannot reside in material things, because it is abundantly clear that God does, has, and commonly uses material reality to communicate and give us His grace and life.

Through ordinary water God washes us clean of our sins and clothes us with Jesus Christ (Romans 6:3-4, Galatians 3:27, Acts 2:38, etc)
Through bread and wine God feeds us the flesh and blood of Jesus Christ (again, 1 Corinthians 10:16)

God became flesh by means of the Virgin Mary and her womb.

That's just Christianity. Ordinary, regular, plain and simple, biblical Christianity.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Hammster]

Do you believe that icons and statues are idols and should be disposed of?

Yes

 

[RandyPNW]

The comment you made was



From this it appeared that you believe that to say God has "the ability to reside in material things" is a "strange view of who God is", that this is a wrong view of God, that it is not a Christian belief that God can reside in material things.

But that's the opposite of the case: The Christian view is that God can "reside in material things". The Incarnation is evidence of that: God became human.

Colossians 2:9 explicitly tells us "in Christ the fullness of deity dwelt bodily".

To quote one of my Christmas songs,

"Mary, did you know that your baby boy
Will give sight to a blind man?
Mary, did you know that your baby boy
Would calm a storm with His hand?
Did you know that your baby boy
Has walked where angels trod,
And when you kiss your little baby
You’ve kissed the face of God?
Mary, did you know?"

The Incarnation means that God united Himself with His creation--with "material things".

All of this without even getting into other aspects of ordinary Christian doctrine: Jesus took bread, broke it, and said, "This is My body", He took the cup of wine and said, "This is My blood of the new covenant"; Paul further saying to the Corinthians, "Is not the cup of blessing which we bless partaking of the blood of Christ? Is not the bread which we break partaking of the body of Christ?" (1 Corinthians 10:16).

In the Eucharist there is God, our Lord Jesus Christ Himself, "residing in material things" because He says it is His own flesh and blood.

That's normative, ordinary, standard Christian teaching.

The "strange view of God" would be to say that God does not or cannot reside in material things, because it is abundantly clear that God does, has, and commonly uses material reality to communicate and give us His grace and life.

Through ordinary water God washes us clean of our sins and clothes us with Jesus Christ (Romans 6:3-4, Galatians 3:27, Acts 2:38, etc)
Through bread and wine God feeds us the flesh and blood of Jesus Christ (again, 1 Corinthians 10:16)

God became flesh by means of the Virgin Mary and her womb.

That's just Christianity. Ordinary, regular, plain and simple, biblical Christianity.

-CryptoLutheran

Well, thank you--that was a very thorough answer--something that I can actually respond to. I can't respond to gibberish. Very easy to reply to this.

My point was not that it's strange that God can exist within material reality--obviously there is the Incarnation. Rather, the point was that all kinds of unbelievers have strange views about God, such as Pantheism. They don't know God and so attribute to His existence within the universe in strange ways, denying His personal connection to us. They may see Him in the form of "all gods are equal" or as in the form of syncretism. He may be your brother, sister, uncle, or aunt, or parts of each.

The unbelieving world, despite their denials, are able to see God in the material universe, though they suffer blindness or myopia, having been lied to by the ungodly world in which we live. But in their inability to see, they choose to disbelieve in Jesus, and make God into whatever they want Him to be. When the unbelieving world confuses God *with the material world,* they have become Pantheists.

This is why God warned Israel not to associate Himself with any material object, such as an idol. God is not to be confused with material objects, though He can appear as a spirit within a material object. The idea is to retain who God is, and not to confuse who He is with something strictly created.