Are images (icons and statues) forbidden by the gospel?

RandyPNW

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I prefer to think of it as realism. I've seen too much of the phony stuff. Faith healers who cure every undiagnosed disease in the congregation, purveyors of "words from the Lord" which are patently untrue, people who interpret their like or dislike for people to be the product of spiritual discernment, people who hold forth with "prophecies" that are a recitation of religious platitudes (often in mangled Elizabethan English), on and on. I have little time for that sort of thing now.

Hey, afaik you're a paragon of virtue. And I'd be the last to prevent you discerning away to your heart's content. But I'd be unlikely to put much stock in it, however sincere you may be. Cynicism? Sure, why not, it's as good a word as any. But I don't do the "spiritual" thing anymore.

In a line I stole from Via Crucis, "I'm not spiritual, I'm religious". I place little importance on feels, and find them untrustworthy. It's an atitude that has served me well in causing me to steer clear of "spiritual" flapdoodle that caused many others a lot of grief.

Missing the point rather pointedly, looks like. The lady I spoke of legitimately thought I was an excellent Christian because she liked me. The reason for liking me could have been anything, being nice to her kids just happened to be her reason. It could as easily been my singing voice (on second thought, no). my vaguely exotic appearance (although that usually makes people ask me if I'm a Buddhist), or some other completely irrelevant "reason". But she was fully persuaded that it was her spiritual spider sense allowing her to discern me as being uncommonly spiritual.

So yeah, when people start talking about "spiritual discernment" I generally don't put much, if any, stock in it.


Hey, you may be the most insightful guy in the continental US, but I'm content to leave that possibility untested.
I don't think it's a virtue to be cynical, though I do admire your exercising critical-thinking. And that requires a certain amount of skepticism. The best thing about you may be your sense of humor. Enjoy.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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I don't think it's a virtue to be cynical, though I do admire your exercising critical-thinking. And that requires a certain amount of skepticism. The best thing about you may be your sense of humor. Enjoy.
I have doubts about alleged prophets and apostles among Charismatic and Pentecostal denominations; do you not have doubts about these claims too?
 
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RandyPNW

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I have doubts about alleged prophets and apostles among Charismatic and Pentecostal denominations; do you not have doubts about these claims too?
I've been associated with Charismatic and Pentecostal circles since the 70s. Many of my friends in these movements do not wish to discuss doctrine with me because they are not great "critical thinkers." They engage in "group think." I do not.

I refused membership in my most recent church for many years because I didn't agree with some of their doctrines. I was asked to become a member with recognition that I don't agree with all of their beliefs. So I did become a member. I told the local superintendent of the AoG that I didn't agree with everything the denomination supports, and he said he had his own opinions, as well.

We have to work with what we have. If we're looking for the perfect denomination, we'll end up on an island. I appreciate your unwillingness to accept things uncritically.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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And yes, I appreciate your sense of humor. The moment you lose it, I won't trust you anymore. ;)
One moment, I am @Xeno.of.athens rather than @Jipsah, it is @Jipsah who has the rapier wit and fluency to write very good and quite humorous as well as accurate posts. My humble efforts are less humorous. :)
 
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RandyPNW

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One moment, I am @Xeno.of.athens rather than @Jipsah, it is @Jipsah who has the rapier wit and fluency to write very good and quite humorous as well as accurate posts. My humble efforts are less humorous. :)
Yes, I suppose I need to slow down and get who I'm talking to right. Thanks for the correction. Sounds like you have a certain amount of "flexibility" yourself? I appreciate it. (I tried to fix it I'll write you a new response, since you may deserve more detail.)
 
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RandyPNW

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I have doubts about alleged prophets and apostles among Charismatic and Pentecostal denominations; do you not have doubts about these claims too?
Where I disagree with Charismatics and Pentecostals is on their belief that "all have all gifts" potentially. That means any Christian should try to be a prophet, and that just encourages all kinds of false tongues and false prophecies. If we're so geared to working miracles we will forget that it is God who produces the miracles. And if miracles are the exception, and not the rule, why are we advocating for the exception? Let's just let God do what He wants?

I'm also not Pretrib any-moment Rapture. I'm Postrib. I could go on.....

What I like about the modern "spiritual" movements is the emphasis on direct experience with the Holy Spirit. Every major revival movement in history had this. The Pentecostals just have their own version of that, citing the Baptism of the Spirit with speaking in tongues. So they have the doctrine wrong, but the experience at least partly right.

The early monastic movements emphasized personal spirituality, but obviously were wrong about *required celibacy.* The Reformers applied "Faith Alone" as a means of Salvation by direct experience with God. Baptists emphasized personal relationship with adult baptism, and independence from church organization. Methodists emphasized personal holiness via a direct relationship with God. Pentecostalism came out of Methodism.
 
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The Liturgist

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Do you believe that icons and statues are idols and should be disposed of?

No, I believe that the Christian church has never had idols, and to claim otherwise is a violation of the canons of the Second Council of Nicaea. Furthermore, I believe that the use of iconography is required: at the barest minimum, every church should have a cross, but much more desirable are stained glass windows or painted icons depicting our Lord, and ideally also his mother the Theotokos and the Holy Apostles and other saints, and it is entirely proper to venerate these.

Now, concerning statues, I do not have a problem with these, but they are not venerated like icons, and I am not sure I would regard them in general as icons, with a few possible exceptions. For example, I love the three dimensional wooden sculptures of the Baby Jesus used in the Traditional Latin Mass from Christmas until a few weeks following, I think at least Epiphany (perhaps one of my Catholic friends such as @Michie @chevyontheriver @concretecamper @Valletta would know). I myself, attending a TLM, saw a young girl asking about it and wanting to see it, and I realized what a superb means of evangelization that icon is.

The Roman Catholics also have another splendid icon in the form of Our Lady of Guadalupe, which is very interesting from an Orthodox perspective, because it generally complies with Orthodox iconographic principles (perhaps not in every detail, but to a very large extent), and that particular icon managed to, by its mere existence, convert the majority of the people of Mexico from their various heathen religions, particularly the barbaric human sacrifice religions such as those practiced by the Aztecs in Tenochitlan (now Mexico City), and in prior centuries by the Mayans in Yucatan, to Christianity.

The Eastern and Oriental Orthodox have some of the most splendid icons, including the sixth century icon of Christ Pantocrator at St. Catharine’s Monastery in Sinai, and other icons such as The Ladder of Divine Ascent, Extreme Humility, The Hospitality of Abraham, and so on.

These icons we know are not a new thing, for the Jewish synagogue in Dura Europos, and the early Christian house church in the same city, both had icons, until the islamic State destroyed them a few years ago. Scripture also contains several examples of iconography, for example, the cherubim that adorned the Ark of the Covenant.

When we consider the amount of Christian cultural heritage destroyed as a result of Iconoclasm, both by Muslims and by Iconoclastic Christians, since the eighth century, when iconoclasm spread to the Byzantine Empire as a result of superstitious military and political leaders who credited the military successes of the Ummayid Caliphate on its extreme iconoclasm rather than recognizing the faults in their own defensive strategies and the other contributing factors to the defeat of the Byzantine Empire in contested regions, for example, the alienation of the Oriental Orthodox Christians, and also the Jews and Samaritans, as a result of incredibly severe and violent persecution. Had the Coptic, Maronite and Syriac Christians at least not been persecuted, but had been respected and given a sense of participation in the Byzantine Empire, it could likely have repulsed the attacks on its provinces in Egypt, Syria, Judaea and Palestina.

Likewise, in the case of Mesopotamia, the Persian Empire was defeated because the ruling Sassanians failed to give the Assyrian and Chaldean people who lived in Mesopotamia a compelling reason to fight for them; Mesopotamia was ruled by the Sassanian Empire but it was not a true part of Persia.
 
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The Liturgist

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Can you think of anybody that you know personally who does this?

I don’t know of anyone who does this, and I’ve only been a member of churches using iconography for … all my life? Even when I was in the UCC, a very large number of our parishes had beautiful stained glass windows and other forms of iconography. And certainly the Lutherans, Methodists, Anglicans and Orthodox have always had it.
 
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The Liturgist

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Some people do worship them ... it's much wiser just not to have them and then one don't have to be concerned about it.

Again, I know of no one who worships them, I have simply never seen it, and I don’t believe this phenomenon exists. As I see it, icons are absolutely vital for Christological reasons - they keep us focused on Christ our true God, and teach us to orient our prayers around His redemption of us from sin.

Worshipping an idol requires one to believe that the idol is actually a manifestation of a deity, as opposed to a depiction of the incarnate Christ and the Holy Apostles, Prophets and Martyrs who served Him.

What is more, the Seventh Ecumenical Council included canons intended to preclude any possibility of accidental idolatry. For example, it is forbidden to chip paint off of an icon and place that bit of paint in the chalice, an abuse that is thought to have occurred in response to the iconoclastic persecution.
 
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The Liturgist

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In one of my former Lutheran parishes, we had a crucifix on the wall behind the altar. In my current church we have a plain cross. I am not bothered by only having a plain cross, but I am partial to a crucifix because it's an unabashed declaration of Gospel: Christ died for us.

-CryptoLutheran

Splendid. I myself like to see both the crucifix and the empty cross. The Coptic and Syriac Orthodox Christians use Jerusalem Crosses as decorations in the woodcarvings. Also some churches have crucifixes where the icon depicting our Lord is taken down on Good Friday and placed in a flowery tomb before being removed to symbolize the resurrection. It is extremely beautiful.
 
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The Liturgist

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and attribute to Him the ability to reside in material reality

God did reside in material reality. See John 1:1-18, Matthew ch. 1-2 and Luke ch. 1-2

The name of Christ, Emmanuel, literally means “God with us.” And in the Nicene Creed we confess that Jesus Christ is fully God.

This Christological doctrine is shared by Protestants, Catholics and Orthodox Christians alike, as my Lutheran and Anglican friends @MarkRohfrietsch @Jipsah @ViaCrucis and @Shane R can confirm.
 
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The Liturgist

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Why does that follow? Plenty of things were happening in the OT that aren't happening today.

Indeed. I can think of at least a dozen vile things which were eradicated as a result of the ascendance of Christianity in the fourth, fifth and sixth centuries and the collapse of Greco/Roman, Egyptian, Levantine and Mesopotamian polytheism.
 
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RandyPNW

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God did reside in material reality. See John 1:1-18, Matthew ch. 1-2 and Luke ch. 1-2

The name of Christ, Emmanuel, literally means “God with us.” And in the Nicene Creed we confess that Jesus Christ is fully God.

This Christological doctrine is shared by Protestants, Catholics and Orthodox Christians alike, as my Lutheran and Anglican friends @MarkRohfrietsch @Jipsah @ViaCrucis and @Shane R can confirm.
Yes, I know, and I, of course, agree. God resided in Christ, who is a material reality.

However, my words must be understood in context, and not strictly at face value. That is the problem with so many of these discussions--words have to be understood as *flexibly applied,* and not rigidly applied.

Seeing words frozen, as such, leads to interpretive fallacies. If X = 1 in this text, then X = 1 in all texts. But that is not true with underlying nuances that take place in communication, eg context. If X = 1 in this text, then X2 = 2 in another text. X2 is X with a different context.

Everybody understands that belief that Christ living in Jesus was not Pantheism. Since I expressly defined "God in material existence" as Pantheism, you should not conflate that with the Incarnation.
 
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The Liturgist

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Yes, I know, and I, of course, agree. God resided in Christ, who is a material reality.

However, my words must be understood in context, and not strictly at face value. That is the problem with so many of these discussions--words have to be understood as *flexibly applied,* and not rigidly applied.

Seeing words frozen, as such, leads to interpretive fallacies. If X = 1 in this text, then X = 1 in all texts. But that is not true with underlying nuances that take place in communication, eg context. If X = 1 in this text, then X2 = 2 in another text. X2 is X with a different context.

Everybody understands that belief that Christ living in Jesus was not Pantheism. Since I expressly defined "God in material existence" as Pantheism, you should not conflate that with the Incarnation.

Christ was Jesus, not merely in Jesus. My concern about your prior post, and this post also, is Nestorianism. God did exist in material reality and this did not constitute pantheism. Also, it is the case that God is everywhere present, and fills all things (divine omnipresence). This does not constitute pantheism. However, there are some credible schools of thought which regard the relationship between God and creation to be one of panentheism (which is different from pantheism).

The doctrine of the Incarnation, as spelled out in John 1, is that God became man. Specifically, the second person of the Trinity, the Only Begotten Son and Word of God, for our sakes became man and was crucified, and rose again according to the Scriptures.

As the great fourth century Church Father St. Athanasius (who helped develop the Nicene Creed, who defended the Apostolic faith against Arianism at the Council of Nicaea, who wrote the important work of early theology, On The Incarnation, and who also developed our 27 book New Testament canon) expressed it, God became man so that man could become god. That is to say, through faith in Christ, we can become by grace what He is by nature, sons of God by adoption as the Pauline epistles express it.
 
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The Liturgist

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I've been associated with Charismatic and Pentecostal circles since the 70s. Many of my friends in these movements do not wish to discuss doctrine with me because they are not great "critical thinkers." They engage in "group think." I do not.

I refused membership in my most recent church for many years because I didn't agree with some of their doctrines. I was asked to become a member with recognition that I don't agree with all of their beliefs. So I did become a member. I told the local superintendent of the AoG that I didn't agree with everything the denomination supports, and he said he had his own opinions, as well.

We have to work with what we have. If we're looking for the perfect denomination, we'll end up on an island. I appreciate your unwillingness to accept things uncritically.

I disagree with this - I believe what we should do is study what the early Church Fathers taught and then submit ourselves to one of those denominations whose doctrines are in alignment with Patristic perspectives. And there are a number of denominations which meet this criteria to varying extents.
 
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Do you believe that icons and statues are idols and should be disposed of?
Exodus 20
4 “You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath, or in the water under the earth. 5 You shall not worship them nor serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, inflicting the punishment of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me, 6 but showing favor to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.
 
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The Liturgist

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Exodus 20
4 “You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath, or in the water under the earth. 5 You shall not worship them nor serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, inflicting the punishment of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me, 6 but showing favor to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

A good thing then that icons are not idols, and that no Christian denomination has ever had idols or engaged in idolatry.

Speaking of which, I recall an Adventist Hospital I visited in the 1990s had a poster that was a photograph of a model depicting our Lord, God and Savior Jesus Christ, which is clearly iconography (albeit an unusual and modern form of iconography).

Oh, one other thing I would note: @Xeno.of.athens did not ask if images were prohibited by the Bible (as a matter of fact they are not, since elsewhere in the Pentateuch God commanded that the Ark be decorated with icons of the Cherubim; the commandment in question clearly applies only to idols and not to iconography), but rather specifically asked about the Gospel.

The Law is distinct from the Gospel and serves a different purpose; indeed one of the hallmarks of Protestant theology as taught by Martin Luther and his successors is an emphasis of the Law/Gospel dichotomy, as our Lutheran friends @MarkRohfrietsch @ViaCrucis and @JM can attest.
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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Exodus 20
4 “You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath, or in the water under the earth. 5 You shall not worship them nor serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, inflicting the punishment of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me, 6 but showing favor to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.
The Angels on the Ark of the Covenant, and the decorations of the temple... Just saying.

Iconoclasm and legalism are both idols in and of themselves in that they takes mans attention away from Christ and the act becomes about how pious the individual is for what they do.
 
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The Liturgist

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Exodus 20
4 “You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath, or in the water under the earth. 5 You shall not worship them nor serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, inflicting the punishment of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me, 6 but showing favor to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

A good thing then that icons are not idols, and that no Christian denomination has ever had idols or engaged in idolatry.

Speaking of which, I recall an Adventist Hospital I visited in the 1990s had a poster that was a photograph of a model depicting our Lord, God and Savior Jesus Christ, which is clearly iconography (albeit an unusual and modern form of iconography).

Oh, one other thing I would note: @Xeno.of.athens did not ask if images were prohibited by the Bible (as a matter of fact they are not, since elsewhere in the Pentateuch God commanded that the Ark be decorated with icons of the Cherubim; the commandment in question clearly applies only to idols and not to iconography), but rather specifically asked about the Gospel.

The Law is distinct from the Gospel and serves a different purpose; indeed one of the hallmarks of Protestant theology as taught by Martin Luther and his successors is an emphasis of the Law/Gospel dichotomy, as our Lutheran friends @MarkRohfrietsch @ViaCrucis and @JM can attest.

The Angels on the Ark of the Covenant, and the decorations of the temple... Just saying.

Iconoclasm and legalism are both idols in and of themselves in that they takes mans attention away from Christ and the act becomes about how pious the individual is for what they do.

Exactly. Iconoclasm, like Nestorianism, with which it is often co-morbid, also compromises the theology of the Incarnation.

Jesus Christ is God incarnate, and therefore He can be depicted owing to His humanity, which is united with His divinity, and because of the Incarnation, God is made visible through the person of the Only Begotten Son and Word of God, our Lord, God and Savior Jesus Christ, who is the likeness of the Father.
 
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