Anyone here familiar or studied Theomatics?

[BukiRob]

I stumbled across this website and was initially HIGHLY skeptical. However, the more I read the more I became convinced the guy has made a huge, earth shaking discovery.

http://angelfall.com/map.php

I would encourage you to take time to examine it in depth and resist the urge to come to a knee jerk reaction.

His research and mathematical claims seem to be on rather solid footing. But then, I am not a mathematician or statistician. I can say he is CLEARLY very bright. The amount of data he provides seems to me as a lay person to pretty much prove his theory.

Anyway, I was wondering if anyone is deeply familiar with this stuff and what your views are regarding his conclusions

 

[visionary]

It is the conclusion... while I see the numbers keep popping up within a given subject, it is the conclusion as to why and what does it mean, besides "God did it"... I mean the reason, what insight, what revelation, what value, what purpose,????? That is lacking.

 

[BukiRob]

It is the conclusion... while I see the numbers keep popping up within a given subject, it is the conclusion as to why and what does it mean, besides "God did it"... I mean the reason, what insight, what revelation, what value, what purpose,????? That is lacking.

You have to do quite a bit of reading to get to that.... this is being presented in a manner to stand up to the standards of scientific scrutiny.

One of the conclusions that is made is pretty easy to see if you read about the prodigal son parable. It is also readily apparent what it is saying when you look at genesis.

His thesis and I personally am not sure he is wrong, is that mankind are those in the host of heaven who rebelled against G-d and were swept out of heaven. It does address some very foundational questions.... like, why was man created? Man was created as a means by which those who rebelled have a path back. It answers the question of why man's nature is one of rebellion. Why we are born at enmity with G-d.

G-d is perfect. He is the very personification of Love. So how could a loving G-d allow an innocent baby be born into this world grow up and if he or she does nothing is damned to hell? How is that just? That baby did not have a say in if it was born. He or she did not make the choice to be born. G-d gave those fallen rebellious of the heavenly host over to their rebellion but with a means by which they could repent and be redeemed. The word itself Redeemed implies prior ownership....

He makes the argument that Eden is both Literal and symbolic of the events that took place in heaven and the math states that this is true. The number associated with the fallen angeles and man is the same.....

Its why I asked if anyone else has examined this more closely because the more I read on this the more I am coming to the realization that he is probably on to something

 

[visionary]

Nothing you stated can not be read clearly in the text itself. So what else does it reveal?

 

[pat34lee]

G-d is perfect. He is the very personification of Love. So how could a loving G-d allow an innocent baby be born into this world grow up and if he or she does nothing is damned to hell? How is that just? That baby did not have a say in if it was born.

You are looking at the wrong side. How could a loving God not
give you life and the ability to choose what to believe?

 

[BukiRob]

You are looking at the wrong side. How could a loving God not
give you life and the ability to choose what to believe?

You and I dont have much choice. The idea of a "free will" is problematic. Scripture tells us in both the old and new that man is at enmity with G-d. We told who can know the heart for it is deceitfully wicked.

I would think by now Pat you would know what I believe. How can you take what I said regarding a loving G-d as my personal position on this? I laid out the argument that many people have about G-d.


Not only that but you dont even answer the question posed.


WHY is man here? The fact that angels rebelled means they have some capacity for free will. Man does not have free will.

In order to have a true free will you have to be neither for, nor against. If one is predisposed to be at war with G-d then you do not have true free will. Man is born with a rebellious heart. From the moment a baby is born its world entirely revolves around what it wants and needs are. As it grows to become a child if the child has good parenting it learns to be a little less self centered. A rebellious nature is the NATURAL condition of man. Scripture tells a parent to use the rod to drive foolishness (rebellion) out of the heart of the son or daughter.

In fact scripture tells us that it is the Holy Spirit that brings one to salvation. Apart from that, we can not even be saved!

When you ask why is man even here most answers I have heard are either inherently flawed or just dont make much sense. Some of what is parroted is just flatly not true.

You assert that you have a choice in what you believe that is not really true. what you think YOU chose to believe? That G-d played no role? No Pat, G-d played the MAJORITY of the role in you and I becoming saved. It wasn't that you made a decision it is you yielded to the Holy Spirit. Had the HS NOT wooed you, YOU WOULD HAVE NEVER BELIEVED.

Repeatedly, we are shown how utterly dependent we are on G-d for EVERYTHING. No there is more going on here.

 

[BukiRob]

Nothing you stated can not be read clearly in the text itself. So what else does it reveal?

Read. Those questions are answered

 

[BukiRob]

Nothing you stated can not be read clearly in the text itself. So what else does it reveal?

Please show me where the text makes clear that man exists because he was that portion of angelic beings that rebelled in Heaven. And that the entire existence of mankind is a display of G-d perfect love, mercy and justice.

Love in that he did not just immediately destroy but rather provided a means by which reconciliation was possible. Perfect love by sending his only begotten son to redeem. Redeem is an interesting word because the scriptural application means to regain something owned or possessed.

Mercy and Justice are shown in the parable of the prodigal son... G-d gave them(us) what they (we) wanted. It shows why we are born with a rebellious nature and heart.

That said where would you point to show that the text says that mankind is the result of the war in Heaven

 

[visionary]

Man was never part of the angels, and never will return to being angels. We are created in the image of God, made from dust, and dust we shall return.

 

[Hoshiyya]

"I would encourage you to take time to examine it in depth and resist the urge to come to a knee jerk reaction."

What is the website about ?
What is the basic theory ?

 

[Hoshiyya]

You are looking at the wrong side. How could a loving God not
give you life and the ability to choose what to believe?

Well if eternal hell is on the table, why would he allow his children any chance of going there?
Would you allow your children to go into eternal hell if you could prevent it ?

Would you even allow your children to go into something much less worse than hell, say heroin or prostitution, if you could prevent ?

 

[BukiRob]

Man was never part of the angels, and never will return to being angels. We are created in the image of God, made from dust, and dust we shall return.

Where in scripture does it indicate that Angles are not made in the image of G-d?

The Bible speaks about mankind's current condition.

I will concede he does bring up some points that DO make sense.

How much choice did you have concerning when you were born? Your name? What family you were born too? What race you are... how tall or short you are? Your physical appearance your health? What country you were born in.... I could go on but you get the point... why is one person born into a loving family raised in the fear and admonition of the Lord and yet another is born in horrific circumstances... how is that "fair" or "just?"

Part of the problem intellectually is that we are being judged as fallen because of the sin SOMEONE ELSE COMMITTED. How is it just that you and I are guilty by birth because of the sin of Adam and Eve? This is TRULY problematic when scripture does not judge a family member for the sin of another. In essence you are advocating for the concept that my cousin 50 times removed and as a result, I am guilty. I did not personally in this existence eat from the forbidden tree. Adam and Eve did.... that is a problem is it not?

"Remember now thy Creator in the days of thy youth, while the evil days come not" (Eccl 12:1)

Note: The words, "the days of thy youth" carries the 141 theomatic pattern of the fallen angels at the time of their original creation of innocence in heaven. That is days of youth that this verse is talking about (not little children on this earth who are five to ten years old). The angels forgot and forsook their Creator, and that is why they fell. It all centers around the issue of faith. (from angelfall.com)

You correctly cite that man was formed from the ground by Adonai and breathed the breath of life.... however, you are not taking into account that Genesis is deeper than just the literal surface truth that we all can read. Genesis and creation, this physical world we live in is a type a shadow of a spiritual reality that is a reflection of what happened in the heavenly realm.

To any student of scripture the idea that the physical is a type of things that are heavenly is not a new idea or concept but rather a reality.

He poses another question that is highly problematic... that is:
IT IS ABSOLUTELY STUNNING AND MIND-BOGGLING, THAT
THOUSANDS OF CHRISTIANS AND STUDENTS OF THE BIBLE, HAVE
READ THESE CHAPTERS IN REVELATION ABOUT THE ANGELS
WARRING IN HEAVEN, ALL ENTERTWINED WITH A WOMAN AND A
SERPENT, AND NEVER QUITE SEEN THE SYMBOLIC CONNECTION TO
MANKIND AND THE GARDEN OF EDEN—ALL OF THESE THINGS IN
REVELATION ARE THE EXPANDED VIEW OF THE SAME EXACT
EVENT THAT TOOK PLACE IN GENESIS.

http://angelfall.com/viewpdf.php?file=5a.pdf

Read this portion (about 30 pages) and I think it will perhaps clarify the point trying to be made here...
I am happy to engage in discussion but in order to do so, doesn't it at least require an open minded examination of what he is presenting??????

 

[Hoshiyya]

Where in scripture does it indicate that Angles are not made in the image of G-d?

Actually the scripture says that the Elohim spoke one to another, and made man in their image.

Then elohim said, "Let us make mankind in OUR image, in OUR likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground." (Ge. 1:26)

Basically it means the Creator's representative, Yeshua, and all the supernatural beings, which are also called elohim, were intelligent beings similar (but superior) to humans, who petitioned the Creator to create intelligent beings similar to them. In other words, the angels petitioned God to make lesser angels, and not just animals.

 

[pat34lee]

Well if eternal hell is on the table, why would he allow his children any chance of going there?
Would you allow your children to go into eternal hell if you could prevent it ?

Would you even allow your children to go into something much less worse than hell, say heroin or prostitution, if you could prevent ?

First, I don't believe in eternal punishment for man. The following is in
both Matthew and Luke.

"And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul.
Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell."

Why give eternal life, which is a gift, to those being judged? They go
'phzzt' and are no more. Like dropping a leaf in a hot fire.

God can't prevent us from choosing hell without destroying our ability
to choose. Would you lobotomize your child to keep him from whatever?

 

[pat34lee]

You and I dont have much choice. The idea of a "free will" is problematic. Scripture tells us in both the old and new that man is at enmity with G-d. We told who can know the heart for it is deceitfully wicked.

I would think by now Pat you would know what I believe. How can you take what I said regarding a loving G-d as my personal position on this? I laid out the argument that many people have about G-d.

I was answering the argument, not attributing it to you or anyone,
though it may look that way.

As for free will vs predestination, sometimes it seems the bible
answers both ways. Job, Ecclesiastes, Jeremiah 18, Proverbs, etc.

I think what it comes down to, is Yahweh wants us all to be saved
and gives us all the choice. Even those who follow him for a time
can turn away and be lost, but no one can take us away from him.

 

[visionary]

Actually the scripture says that the Elohim spoke one to another, and made man in their image.

Then elohim said, "Let us make mankind in OUR image, in OUR likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground." (Ge. 1:26)

Basically it means the Creator's representative, Yeshua, and all the supernatural beings, which are also called elohim, were intelligent beings similar (but superior) to humans, who petitioned the Creator to create intelligent beings similar to them. In other words, the angels petitioned God to make lesser angels, and not just animals.

Maybe that is why Satan has a pet peeve about us and this planet..

 

[Hoshiyya]

Maybe that is why Satan has a pet peeve about us and this planet..

True.

Tradition specifically says that all the angels were called to bow before Adam, and Michael led them.
But Hasatan would not bow, due to his adherence to hierarchical thinking.
He thought it a contradiction that the mighty should bow before those less mighty.

Since God was willing to degrade angels by having them bow before those less mighty than them, he decided to degrade God by making humans exalt themselves not only above angels, but also above God.

 

[Hoghead1]

Well if eternal hell is on the table, why would he allow his children any chance of going there?
Would you allow your children to go into eternal hell if you could prevent it ?

Would you even allow your children to go into something much less worse than hell, say heroin or prostitution, if you could prevent ?

Good questions. But who says God is omnipotent? I sure don't. I think omnipotence is a major theological mistake. If we have genuine freedom, then no, God does not have complete and total monopolistic control over the universe.

 

[AllanV]

I stumbled across this website and was initially HIGHLY skeptical. However, the more I read the more I became convinced the guy has made a huge, earth shaking discovery.

http://angelfall.com/map.php

I would encourage you to take time to examine it in depth and resist the urge to come to a knee jerk reaction.

His research and mathematical claims seem to be on rather solid footing. But then, I am not a mathematician or statistician. I can say he is CLEARLY very bright. The amount of data he provides seems to me as a lay person to pretty much prove his theory.

Anyway, I was wondering if anyone is deeply familiar with this stuff and what your views are regarding his conclusions

What was noticed is that there was no clarity as to where and who Satan is. This is significant.

The only one who gains from this is Satan and his demons.

 

[BukiRob]

First, I don't believe in eternal punishment for man. The following is in
both Matthew and Luke.

"And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul.
Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell."

Why give eternal life, which is a gift, to those being judged? They go
'phzzt' and are no more. Like dropping a leaf in a hot fire.

God can't prevent us from choosing hell without destroying our ability
to choose. Would you lobotomize your child to keep him from whatever?

We dont have nearly as much a free will to choose as many would lead you to believe.

You did not have any choice as to what sex you were born. What color your skin, hair and eyes are. Didnt chose to be short or tall, fat or skinny... didnt have a choice to what place you were born, what your station in life you were born to ... didnt have a choice as to what kind of family and parents you have.... NONE of those things did you choose.... not even your given name did you choose.

Mankind is born in rebellion at enmity with G-d... it is ONLY by the power of the Holy Spirit that we can even come to repentance.