Antichrist/Beast/Man of Sin/Little Horn Separate and distinct or the Same?

[victorinus]

you can't identify the little horn without first identifying the ten horns of the fourth beast of daniel and the second beast of the apocalypse

I haven't spent a lot of time on this
-but-
in my thread on the apocalypse I have identified the ten horns as the ten islamic dynasties
-so-
I looked for a strong individual within this framework
-and-
saladin is the most likely suspect since there were at least four islamic dynasties before his time and he did end up starting what is considered the fifth one

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

I haven't spent a lot of time on this
-but-
in my thread on the apocalypse I have identified the ten horns as the ten islamic dynasties
-so-
I looked for a strong individual within this framework
-and-
saladin is the most likely suspect since there were at least four islamic dynasties before his time and he did end up starting what is considered the fifth one

Have you considered that the great and dreadful beast in Daniel that follows after the leopard beast, which we are told is Greece, is the Roman Empire? After the fall of the Empire, there were 10 tribes that came out of it...
Saxons
Franks
Suevi
Burgundians
Alemanni
Heruli
Lombards
Visigoths
Vandals
Ostrogoths

These last 3 were the ones plucked up by the roots... in other words, there is no trace of their people in the world today. It is also noteworthy that the beast of Revelation that comes up out of the sea (populated area), that it has 7 horns and 10 crowns, meaning that it was this entity that subdued 3 of the horns or kingdoms but retained their crowns, or the power over their territory.

The Mohommedens are mentioned in Rev. 9.

 

[John Hyperspace]

If you stick to the bible, there's only one kingdom that is divided into two (dominion and sanctuary) and has 10 horns and 2 horns, and conquered 7 mountains. Anyone know which it is? Anyone?

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

The ten kings rule with the beast for 42 months. Those 42 months and the ten kings are still future.

Please show me from scripture where 10 kings are to rule with the beast for 42 months... note the use of the words kings that have no kingdom yet. This not the case for the beast with 7 heads and ten crowns.

 

[victorinus]

Have you considered that the great and dreadful beast in Daniel that follows after the leopard beast, which we are told is Greece, is the Roman Empire?

I have the roman empire as the third beast that is followed by islam

 

[LastSeven]

I guess it depends on what is meant by "of God" in John 1. Are angels not "of God"?

Help me out here. Do you mean "John 1" or "1 John"?

Sorry, I meant 1 John.

1 John 4:3
And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

 

[LastSeven]

JW's are also against the belief in the trinity.

Well, there may be good reason not to believe in the Trinity but that doesn't necessarily mean one is anti-Christ.

 

[Douggg]

<staff edit>

Please show me from scripture where 10 kings are to rule with the beast for 42 months... note the use of the words kings that have no kingdom yet. This not the case for the beast with 7 heads and ten crowns.

In Revelation 17, concerning the the ten kings....12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

Now, look at the crowns on the heads/horns of the beast in Revelation 17, 12, 13.

The ten horns (kings) do not have crowns except in Revelation 13, which is with 42 months left in the 7 years.

The crowns/no crowns on the heads and horns are determined by the time period of each of those three chapters.

No crowns, Revelation 17, because that Chapter is the status of the beast in the first century.

Crowns only on the heads in Revelation 12, because that Chapter covers the entire 7 years, relevant to Israel, the woman in the first five verses introductory historic account to identify the woman as Israel. The crowns are on the 7 heads because king 7, the little horn has come to power right before the 7 years begin.... the prophecy of the 7 kings fulfilled then.

But there are no crowns on the ten horns because the beast, the unclean spirit in the bottomless pit, does not come out until right before the 42 months in Revelation 13.

In Revelation 13, one of the heads has been mortally wound, king 7, the little horn
person has been killed, ending the prophecy of the 7 kings - so there are no crowns on the heads with 42 months left.

The beast, the unclean spirit, will have ascended out of the bottomless pit to possess the person after he has come back to life to become the eighth king, that is possessed by the unclean spirit. So it is not until that last 42 months that the ten kings rule with beast.

 

[Douggg]

Well, there may be good reason not to believe in the Trinity but that doesn't necessarily mean one is anti-Christ.

For them who knock the trinity, it could be close, if they say that Jesus is not God. It may be a matter of not understanding the trinity.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

I think the fact that when Jesus said "this generation" and the apostles went on to believe him as their writings show , then I think we are always going to have problems in understanding any futuristic prophecies. Meaning that if for example Daniels prophecies were in mind then the apostles would have placed it into their generation at that time.
And the book of revelation where John is told that some things are past present and future (from his perspective and time) are made up by modern day Christians to make it fit their beliefs whether they be preterists or futurists .

We need to keep in mind that God is the Author of His Word and it is exactly as He wants it...it was written in a way to be understood by His last day peoples. Every book of the Bible has either prophesy for this time, object lessons for us at this time and instruction for God's people at this time. It is a wonderful exposition of wisdom, comfort and strength for those that can read the Divine synergy between recorded history and the Word of God... indeed, God is the Creator of history so to think it won't be revealed to us, when it was promised to be, is showing a lack of faith in the what God says.

The unsealing of the understanding of the book of Daniel, which then enabled Spirit lead Bible students to unlock Revelation, began over two hundred years ago and was prophesied to happen. After the unspiritual horror of the French Revolution, the Bible Societies began to be formed and because of the industrial revolution, Bibles were, for the first time, able to be printed in volume and distributed worldwide. Mission stations were set up around the world and for the first time in history, the 1st angels message of Rev 14 was able to start to be fulfilled.

The history of the past 2000 years is laid out in the book of Revelation, precisely. People say the SDA somehow manipulate history somehow to fit what we think the Bible says... consider that it would only be possible for the Adventist view to hold up unless it was 100% accurate to historical record. To most, this won't matter because they have an automatic disdain for Adventists, overtly or covertly, because we believe that we have the prophetic truth as given to a number faithful mean and women of God. The same way the Papacy considered Protestants heretics because of their claim to truth, so it is now against Seventh Day Adventists. This is fine... we do not matter in the final analysis as truth is truth and will be revealed for all to understand. Most Adventists won't stand and there will be from every denomination, creed and belief, God's people that will come out and be ye separate. The word remnant, indicates very few... ecumenism is not the path Christ called for us to be on. He said "I come not to bring peace, but a sword." That sword is absolute Truth, and it will result in only two groups at the end. Those that were faithful , obedient and surrendered... and everyone else.

 

[ebedmelech]

Sorry, I meant 1 John.

1 John 4:3
And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

When it comes to angels, they are CREATIONS of God, they are God's messengers. Not so with Jesus. He is God manifested, the Christ. Hence 1 John 1:1. and Proverbs 8:22-36 for starters.

To get the full understanding of what is said in 1 John 4:3 one cannot isolate this verse from verse 2 also. Even so that fact that Jesus is God is settled throughout scripture. Too many verses to list.

1 Timothy 3:16:
16 By common confession, great is the mystery of godliness: He who was revealed in the flesh, Was vindicated in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Proclaimed among the nations, Believed on in the world, Taken up in glory.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

I have the roman empire as the third beast that is followed by islam

In the statue that Nebuchadnezzar dreamed about, showing the empires of the world from his time til Christ comes, there are 5 different elements that make up the statue. Gold, silver, bronze, iron, and iron mixed with clay. We understand that each metal represent a different world power, so as Nebuchadnezzar was told by Daniel, Babylon was the head of gold, then we discover through the other prophesy of Daniels of the beasts, that Medo Persia was the next to ascend, the chest of silver, Alexander the Great was the next man on the scene, Greece being the 3rd world kingdom or the belly and thighs of bronze. After the Greeks, the Roman Empire came storming the stage of history and the iron legs aptly describe them. Then there were the feet and toes made of iron mixed with clay... this shows that part of the next empire was to be partly from Rome (iron) and partly of another entity, represented by the clay. We can ascertain from scripture that clay was symbolically used to describe God's people, His church in Isaiah 64:8 and Jeremiah 18:6. So the next empire was to be a mixture of Roman power with ecclesiastical power and that is exactly what we see coming up with the Roman Catholic church. The 10 toes represents the ten divisions of the former Roman Empire, at that time the world at large... which the Papacy has claimed as her jurisdiction ever since.

 

[Douggg]

Then there were the feet and toes made of iron mixed with clay... this shows that part of the next empire was to be partly from Rome (iron) and partly of another entity, represented by the clay. We can ascertain from scripture that clay was symbolically used to describe God's people, His church in Isaiah 64:8 and Jeremiah 18:6.

Jeremiah 18:6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.

the metaphor is that Israel - a nation - is likened to potter's clay.

In verse 42 below, of the final version of the fourth kingdom, some of those nations in it are like iron, strong. Other nations in that kingdom are weak like clay. The fulfillment is the present day EU, some nations are weak (broken as in the financial condition of some of the EU countries), some are strong.

The ten kings (the ten toes) are not in place yet....
as the kingdom of God (to be set up in their day) is not the ruling power here on earth yet (verse 44), to show that the Saxons....thru....Ostrogoths were not the fulfillment..

Daniel 2:
41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.

42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.

43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

 

[LostMarbels]

My opinion can be found here: My post

More than willing to discuss it, I just don't want to have to retype all of it again.

 

[LastSeven]

For them who knock the trinity, it could be close, if they say that Jesus is not God. It may be a matter of not understanding the trinity.

But even John did not say that if you don't believe Jesus is God you are anti-Christ. He said if you don't believe that Jesus came in the flesh, then you have the spirit of anti-Christ. He didn't say anything about Jesus being God.

1 John 4:3 (KJV)
Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

1 John 4:2-3 (NIV)
This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3 but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.

 

[LastSeven]

JWs and Mormons don't believe that Jesus Christ is of God?

Ebed, let me rephrase that, in light of the verses you quoted. Do JWs and Mormons not believe that Jesus Christ came in the flesh? Because that is what John said, is it not?

 

[Brian45]

We need to keep in mind that God is the Author of His Word and it is exactly as He wants it...it was written in a way to be understood by His last day peoples.

You mean like Peter 2000 yrs ago when he said this -
Then Peter stood up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and addressed the crowd: “Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and listen carefully to my words. These men are not drunk as you suppose. It is only the third hour of the day! No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:

In the last days, God says,

I will pour out My Spirit on all people;

your sons and daughters will prophesy,

your young men will see visions,

your old men will dream dreams.

Even on My servants, both men and women,

I will pour out My Spirit in those days,

and they will prophesy.

I will show wonders in the heavens above

and signs on the earth below,

blood and fire and clouds of smoke.

The sun will be turned to darkness,

and the moon to blood,

before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord.

And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.’b

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

You mean like Peter 2000 yrs ago when he said this -
Then Peter stood up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and addressed the crowd: “Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and listen carefully to my words. These men are not drunk as you suppose. It is only the third hour of the day! No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:

In the last days, God says,

I will pour out My Spirit on all people;

your sons and daughters will prophesy,

your young men will see visions,

your old men will dream dreams.

Even on My servants, both men and women,

I will pour out My Spirit in those days,

and they will prophesy.

I will show wonders in the heavens above

and signs on the earth below,

blood and fire and clouds of smoke.

The sun will be turned to darkness,

and the moon to blood,

before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord.

And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.’b

Do you think you would recognize or believe a prophet that God would use as He said for these times? The fulfillment of the sun being darkened and the moon turning as blood is already recorded in historical records as having happened... how much more has happened? Has there been a last day prophet for God's people?

 

[ebedmelech]

Two things to note in this passage concerning the man of sin, the son of perdition... he exalteth himself (speaks great things) above God and claims to be God.

In this next verse we see that to claim to be God is blasphemy..



Now we will look at the little horn of Daniel to see if he has similar attributes...



We know in the context of Daniel 8 that this little horn comes up after the 4th beast, Rome... the terrible beast with iron teeth that breaketh. Indeed, even Gibbons calls the Roman empire the iron kingdom.
So even though this power is spoken of in Daniel, it is placed in the same time frame as the beast of Revelation and the man of sin... future from the time of the Bible writers.

Here's more identifiers of the little horn...



Of note in this passage of scripture... we see that this little horn power is the same as the son of perdition, the man of sin as he also opposes God and His people. It also identifies it as being in power after the 4th beast on the earth, which we know is the Roman empire.

Lets now move on to the Beast of Revelation to see if we can see similar attributes...



As we see here, the portions in bold are almost word for word descriptions of of the little horn power of Daniel, the man of sin, son of perdition.

Also, the antichrist spoken of in the epistles of John identifies this power as one who is against God, who denies God by claiming to be God... it is the same entity as the others shown here.



My apologies for the somewhat disjointed study as I am putting it together on the fly.... if you have any questions or need clarification, please ask.

The "little horn" of Daniel was Antiochus IV Epiphanes. He's identified in Daniel 11

The "man of sin" was none other than Emperor Nero who killed Paul and Peter and mounted great persecution against the church.

 

[ebedmelech]

Ebed, let me rephrase that, in light of the verses you quoted. Do JWs and Mormons not believe that Jesus Christ came in the flesh? Because that is what John said, is it not?

Yes...but what do you do with John 1:1-4??? John wrote that also. The question is to be answered in light of all that John wrote.

You must take the whole of scripture to understand what John means.

Take Paul in Colossians 1:15-20...what do you do with that?