An Overview of the Tribulation.

[Marilyn C]

The scroll gives the main tribulation points - beginning, middle and end.

I have set out the details of the chapters according to where they come - beginning, middle, end.

(NOTE: all the Gt. Earthquakes line up for the end of the tribulation.)

What are your thoughts?

 

[Douggg]

Marilyn, regarding Revelation 6 and 7 - you are calling "Time Frame of Judgments" - there are no timeframes given in either Revelation 6, nor Revelation 7.

And why do those chapters have to be called "a judgment scroll" and "a legal document" ? Why does God need a legal document? Legal document is not used anywhere in Revelation.

What does 1-4 World Federations mean ? What is 1-4 ? And what World Federations ?

imo, I would eliminate the scroll graphic. And just summarize chapter 6 and 7.
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Marilyn, people can't understand what you are talking about. That is why you are not getting any feedback, nor comments.

 

[Marilyn C]

View attachment 335964

Marilyn, regarding Revelation 6 and 7 - you are calling "Time Frame of Judgments" - there are no timeframes given in either Revelation 6, nor Revelation 7.

And why do those chapters have to be called "a judgment scroll" and "a legal document" ? Why does God need a legal document? Legal document is not used anywhere in Revelation.

What does 1-4 World Federations mean ? What is 1-4 ? And what World Federations ?

imo, I would eliminate the scroll graphic. And just summarize chapter 6 and 7.
-----------------------------------------------------

Marilyn, people can't understand what you are talking about. That is why you are not getting any feedback, nor comments.

Hi Dougg,

Thank you for your feedback. I appreciate it. I`m not so concerned if people don`t reply as long as others are reading. To me it is straight forward and makes sense, however I do hear what you are saying and will think about it.

1. Rev. 6 & 7 refer to the scroll given to the Lord. It is from the Father who has placed all judgments in His hand. (John 5: 26 & 27)
The 4 Federations are the nations that the Father is bringing to His Son`s footstool for judgment. (Ps. 110: 1)
The martyrs are those who will be killed by the A/C starting about halfway through the trib. (Rev. 13: 5 & 15)
Finally, the Great earthquake comes just before the Lord returns in power and great glory. (Rev. 16: 16 - 18, Joel 3: 16)

2. It is called a judgment scroll as it comes in the second vision of the Lord `Christ the Heir,` (Rev. 4 - 8) Christ is the worthy one, the Heir who is made Heir of all things. We are shown pictorially the transaction of the Father to the Son, authorizing Him to begin the judgments upon the rebellious nations. The `scroll with the 7 seals` is just symbolic of this transaction, (7 meaning completion and seals as to what we call a legal document).

3. 1- 4 Federations are those the Father has herded to His Son`s footstool, (Ps. 110: 1) revealed in Zech. 6: 5 as Judgments and also in Dan. 7 as the 4 kingdoms/Federations at the time of the Lord setting up His millennial rule through Israel.

 

[RandyPNW]

View attachment 335956

What are your thoughts?

I believe the 144,000 is a symbolic number representing the Jewish remnant of Christians in the NT Age. And I think the Great Multitude represents the entirety of Christianity, dead and living, throughout the NT Era. I think that because I believe the "Tribulation" represents the Tribulation of the entire NT Era.

That's really how Jesus applied the term "the Great Tribulation" or "the Great Distress" in the Olivet Discourse. At that time Jesus applied this term to the "Punishment of unbelieving Jews," though the term came to encompass the situation for Christians among all nations, Christian and non-Christian.

The Jews initially entered into the "Tribulation," or "the time of Jewish Punishment," when the Romans came against Jerusalem in 70 AD, as a result of their rejecting Jesus as their Messiah. Jesus said this general unbelief would continue among the majority of Jews throughout the NT Age, until he came back in judgment.

But there would always be a Jewish remnant with faith in Christ according to Paul. And John described these, I believe, in the language of the 144,000--a number indicating a representation of Jews from all tribes.

As we know, tribal distinctions passed away a long, long time ago. But John is indicating that these are real Jews, descended without partiality from all 12 tribes of the past. As such, they represent the ideal future of Israel, to consist of believers in Jesus, their Messiah.

Until that time comes, the Jewish People cannot be extinguished. That is the lesson of the 144,000 of Israel.

 

[Douggg]

1. Rev. 6 & 7 refer to the scroll given to the Lord. It is from the Father who has placed all judgments in His hand. (John 5: 26 & 27)
The 4 Federations are the nations that the Father is bringing to His Son`s footstool for judgment. (Ps. 110: 1)
The martyrs are those who will be killed by the A/C starting about halfway through the trib. (Rev. 13: 5 & 15)
Finally, the Great earthquake comes just before the Lord returns in power and great glory. (Rev. 16: 16 - 18, Joel 3: 16)

Hi Marilyn, I think you should include what translation you are using.

In the kjv, the word federation(s) never appears. And federation is an unfamiliar term to most Christians as referring to kingdoms or nations. The word used in Revelation is kingdom(s). Therefore, I would not use the word federation(s).

FEDERATION IN THE BIBLE

See 'federation' instances in the King James Version (KJV).

www.kingjamesbibleonline.org

Psalms 110:1 does not mention specifically four kingdoms.

"1-4", why are you saying "1-4" instead of just "4" ? What specific verse in Revelation are you reading 4 kingdoms ? Are you doing an overview of Revelation or an overview of how you interpret other parts of the bible (Daniel 7) ?

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Marilyn, you have the overview concept of Revelation wrong. Mostly what Revelation and the entire Bible represents is the conflict between God and Satan. Revelation represents the end of the age.

In Revelation 11, the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of God and His Christ. The kingdoms of this world are taken from the control of Satan and his mystical kingdom of Babylon the Great, at that time.

2. It is called a judgment scroll as it comes in the second vision of the Lord `Christ the Heir,` (Rev. 4 - 8) Christ is the worthy one, the Heir who is made Heir of all things. We are shown pictorially the transaction of the Father to the Son, authorizing Him to begin the judgments upon the rebellious nations. The `scroll with the 7 seals` is just symbolic of this transaction, (7 meaning completion and seals as to what we call a legal document).

Why wouldn't it, by that logic be called "the inheritance scroll". Does the term "judgement scroll" appear in the translation you are using? It is not called a scroll in the kjv, but a book. What that book is about is the end of the age.

The book, or scroll if you want to call it that, is "the end of the age" book.

I think, if I were you, have the scroll as a background to encapsulate the entire overview, and title it the end of the age scroll. But actually I would prefer end of the age book, as opposed to scroll, imo. Put the translation you are using in the upper right corner. "kjv" for example.

Revelation 6 overview, should be specific to Revelation 6. Same for Revelation 7, the overview should be specific to Revelation 7.

An overview of Revelation 6 is six of the seals to the end of the age book are removed by Jesus and the book opened. Revealing, the four horsemen riding through the apocalypse of the first four seals. During which time, many martyrs faithful to the testimony of Jesus, will be slain, as revealed by the fifth seal as it is removed.

The sixth seal of Revelation, reveals the sign of the Son of man appearing in Heaven, ready to execute judgement on the evil men of the world who had martyred the great tribulation saints of the apocalypse.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Marilyn, from the appearance of your presentation - it appears to me that you are doing a "grouping" of Revelation chapters, not what I would consider an overview, imo.

 

[Douggg]

I believe the 144,000 is a symbolic number representing the Jewish remnant of Christians in the NT Age. And I think the Great Multitude represents the entirety of Christianity, dead and living, throughout the NT Era. I think that because I believe the "Tribulation" represents the Tribulation of the entire NT Era.

That's really how Jesus applied the term "the Great Tribulation" or "the Great Distress" in the Olivet Discourse. At that time Jesus applied this term to the "Punishment of unbelieving Jews," though the term came to encompass the situation for Christians among all nations, Christian and non-Christian.

The Jews initially entered into the "Tribulation," or "the time of Jewish Punishment," when the Romans came against Jerusalem in 70 AD, as a result of their rejecting Jesus as their Messiah. Jesus said this general unbelief would continue among the majority of Jews throughout the NT Age, until he came back in judgment.

But there would always be a Jewish remnant with faith in Christ according to Paul. And John described these, I believe, in the language of the 144,000--a number indicating a representation of Jews from all tribes.

As we know, tribal distinctions passed away a long, long time ago. But John is indicating that these are real Jews, descended without partiality from all 12 tribes of the past. As such, they represent the ideal future of Israel, to consist of believers in Jesus, their Messiah.

Until that time comes, the Jewish People cannot be extinguished. That is the lesson of the 144,000 of Israel.

How can Marilyn, or anyone, put all of that into a concise overview of Revelation 7 ? Marilyn is doing an overview, not a dissertation or essay.

 

[RandyPNW]

How can Marilyn, or anyone, put all of that into a concise overview of Revelation 7 ? Marilyn is doing an overview, not a dissertation or essay.

She, in her chart, places Israel in a tribulation at a special time at the end of the age, with 144,000 priests. I simply point out that Israel has been going through "great tribulation" since the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD and that the 144,000 represent the Christian portion of Israel, which is preserving the nation until Christ comes back to restore the nation.

If I'm right, she should remove "144,000 priests," and remove any sense that Israel's tribulation or the appearance of the Great Multitude begins in the endtimes, since this has been going on since 70 AD. I was commenting on her chart, which is what she asked feedback for.

Actually, I was unclear about the timing that she was assigning these events to, whether the entire NT Period or just the very last times? So I made clear my own position. There are, I believe, things that happen in the last 1260 days of the age and following, as she notes in her diagram.

 

[Douggg]

If I'm right, she should remove "144,000 priests," and remove any sense that Israel's tribulation or the appearance of the Great Multitude begins in the endtimes, since this has been going on since 70 AD. I was commenting on her chart, which is what she asked feedback for.

Under her chapter 6 and 7 "grouping" she has "144,000 Israeli's and Great Multitude". The text though has 144,000 of the twelve tribes of Israel. Israeli's is not the proper term. Marilyn should annotate 144,000 of the twelve tribes - 12,000 from each of twelves tribes, sealed. Before any of the trumpet and vial judgements begin.

And the great multitude from all peoples coming out of the great tribulation.

............................................................................................

In her chapter 14-16 "grouping" shall 144,000 priests of Israel - first fruits. I think she should add the word "heavenly", i.e. 144,000 heavenly priests of Israel - first fruits.

I would not call them priests, but "144,000 souls of the twelve tribes in heaven - the first fruits of men redeemed from the earth."

3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

 

[John839]

It talks about the same group only from different point of view. 144000 because they are perfect and uncountable because they are great.

So the 144000 are all Christians, from every nation, including Christians from carnal Israel.

In the Bible, the same things are sometimes described from a different point of view. For example, the metals in Daniel 2 and the beasts in Daniel 7 both refer to the same kingdoms but from different perspectives.

 

[Douggg]

@Marilyn C

Marilyn, take a look at this version of your chart, that I came up with.... Your chart inspired me to come up with my own overview chart.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

This verse is repeated exactly 4 times in Revelations.

From the throne came flashes of lightning, and rumblings, and peals of thunder. Revelation 4:5 (BSB)

When the Lamb opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour. Then the angel took the censer, filled it with fire from the altar, and hurled it to the earth; and there were peals of thunder, and rumblings, and flashes of lightning, and an earthquake. Revelation 8:1,5 (BSB)

Then the seventh angel sounded his trumpet,... Then the temple of God in heaven was opened, and the ark of His covenant appeared in His temple. And there were flashes of lightning, and rumblings, and peals of thunder, and an earthquake, and a great hailstorm. Revelation 11:15, 19 (BSB)

Then the seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and a loud voice came from the throne in the temple, saying, “It is done!”
And there were flashes of lightning, and rumblings, and peals of thunder, and a great earthquake the likes of which had not occurred since men were upon the earth—so mighty was the great quake. The great city was split into three parts, and the cities of the nations collapsed. And God remembered Babylon the great and gave her the cup of the wine of the fury of His wrath.
Then every island fled, and no mountain could be found. And great hailstones weighing almost a hundred pounds each rained down on them from above. And men cursed God for the plague of hail, because it was so horrendous. Revelation 16:17-21 (BSB)

I've recently started to see all three of these events as happening at the same time. I've read lots of theories about Revelation being a series of chronological events where one proceeds the next and so forth. I no longer agree with that. I think that statement, repeated only 4 times, three of which happen at exactly the 7th marker of the scroll, trumpets, and bowls of wrath, indicate God's divine judgement (Revelation 4:5)

I'm not sure where I fall in the whole, 144,000 being a literal number, or if they are even literal Jews. The tribes listed there match no other listed set of tribes in all of scripture.

Neither Levi nor Joseph is ever listed as a tribe in terms of like a census. The tribes are usually referred to as:

Reuben
Simeon
Judah
Isaachar
Zebulun
Dan
Naphtali
Gad
Asher
Benjamin
Manasseh
Ephraim

So the inclusion of Levi and the "tribe of Jospeh" in Revelation, is sort of a red flag that perhaps this list is more symbolic of maybe spiritual Israel than literal.

Either way, fun to discuss

 

[RandyPNW]

Under her chapter 6 and 7 "grouping" she has "144,000 Israeli's and Great Multitude". The text though has 144,000 of the twelve tribes of Israel. Israeli's is not the proper term. Marilyn should annotate 144,000 of the twelve tribes - 12,000 from each of twelves tribes, sealed. Before any of the trumpet and vial judgements begin.

And the great multitude from all peoples coming out of the great tribulation.

............................................................................................

In her chapter 14-16 "grouping" shall 144,000 priests of Israel - first fruits. I think she should add the word "heavenly", i.e. 144,000 heavenly priests of Israel - first fruits.

I would not call them priests, but "144,000 souls of the twelve tribes in heaven - the first fruits of men redeemed from the earth."

3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

Well, you should address that to her perhaps, since it is your own view--not mine necessarily. But I do like how you try to be specific about what the Scriptures actually *say.* Since "priests" are not used, it would be best to use "first fruits." I do not, however, see any need to omit "Israel" in favor of the 12 tribes of Israel. It goes without saying that the 12 tribes represent all Israel. My opinion only....

 

[Marilyn C]

This verse is repeated exactly 4 times in Revelations.

From the throne came flashes of lightning, and rumblings, and peals of thunder. Revelation 4:5 (BSB)

When the Lamb opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour. Then the angel took the censer, filled it with fire from the altar, and hurled it to the earth; and there were peals of thunder, and rumblings, and flashes of lightning, and an earthquake. Revelation 8:1,5 (BSB)

Then the seventh angel sounded his trumpet,... Then the temple of God in heaven was opened, and the ark of His covenant appeared in His temple. And there were flashes of lightning, and rumblings, and peals of thunder, and an earthquake, and a great hailstorm. Revelation 11:15, 19 (BSB)

Then the seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and a loud voice came from the throne in the temple, saying, “It is done!”
And there were flashes of lightning, and rumblings, and peals of thunder, and a great earthquake the likes of which had not occurred since men were upon the earth—so mighty was the great quake. The great city was split into three parts, and the cities of the nations collapsed. And God remembered Babylon the great and gave her the cup of the wine of the fury of His wrath.
Then every island fled, and no mountain could be found. And great hailstones weighing almost a hundred pounds each rained down on them from above. And men cursed God for the plague of hail, because it was so horrendous. Revelation 16:17-21 (BSB)

I've recently started to see all three of these events as happening at the same time. I've read lots of theories about Revelation being a series of chronological events where one proceeds the next and so forth. I no longer agree with that. I think that statement, repeated only 4 times, three of which happen at exactly the 7th marker of the scroll, trumpets, and bowls of wrath, indicate God's divine judgement (Revelation 4:5)

I'm not sure where I fall in the whole, 144,000 being a literal number, or if they are even literal Jews. The tribes listed there match no other listed set of tribes in all of scripture.

Neither Levi nor Joseph is ever listed as a tribe in terms of like a census. The tribes are usually referred to as:

Reuben
Simeon
Judah
Isaachar
Zebulun
Dan
Naphtali
Gad
Asher
Benjamin
Manasseh
Ephraim

So the inclusion of Levi and the "tribe of Jospeh" in Revelation, is sort of a red flag that perhaps this list is more symbolic of maybe spiritual Israel than literal.

Either way, fun to discuss

Hi ByTheSpirit,

Thanks for that information. I have added it to the diagram. The Gt. Earthquakes help give us the end of the tribulation.

 

[Marilyn C]

I believe the 144,000 is a symbolic number representing the Jewish remnant of Christians in the NT Age. And I think the Great Multitude represents the entirety of Christianity, dead and living, throughout the NT Era. I think that because I believe the "Tribulation" represents the Tribulation of the entire NT Era.

That's really how Jesus applied the term "the Great Tribulation" or "the Great Distress" in the Olivet Discourse. At that time Jesus applied this term to the "Punishment of unbelieving Jews," though the term came to encompass the situation for Christians among all nations, Christian and non-Christian.

The Jews initially entered into the "Tribulation," or "the time of Jewish Punishment," when the Romans came against Jerusalem in 70 AD, as a result of their rejecting Jesus as their Messiah. Jesus said this general unbelief would continue among the majority of Jews throughout the NT Age, until he came back in judgment.

But there would always be a Jewish remnant with faith in Christ according to Paul. And John described these, I believe, in the language of the 144,000--a number indicating a representation of Jews from all tribes.

As we know, tribal distinctions passed away a long, long time ago. But John is indicating that these are real Jews, descended without partiality from all 12 tribes of the past. As such, they represent the ideal future of Israel, to consist of believers in Jesus, their Messiah.

Until that time comes, the Jewish People cannot be extinguished. That is the lesson of the 144,000 of Israel.

Hi Randy,

Thank you for your thoughts. For them to be Biblical we would need to see scriptures confirming your thoughts.

 

[Marilyn C]

Hi Marilyn, I think you should include what translation you are using.

In the kjv, the word federation(s) never appears. And federation is an unfamiliar term to most Christians as referring to kingdoms or nations. The word used in Revelation is kingdom(s). Therefore, I would not use the word federation(s).

FEDERATION IN THE BIBLE

See 'federation' instances in the King James Version (KJV).

www.kingjamesbibleonline.org

Psalms 110:1 does not mention specifically four kingdoms.

"1-4", why are you saying "1-4" instead of just "4" ? What specific verse in Revelation are you reading 4 kingdoms ?

Hi Douggg,

it seems you have created some interest, thanks. Now the word `kingdoms` is the English word, while the Hebrew is `malkuw` meaning dominion, rule. Today we use the terms Commonwealth, Union or super powers. I use Federation for it gives the thought of nations coming together for a similar purpose.

Ps. 110: 1 reveals that the Father is bringing the Lord`s enemies to His footstool for judgment and Ps. 2: 1 - 3 shows that it is the nations that are coming together against the Lord. Dan. 7 describes 4 beastly superpowers in the time of the Lord setting up His rulership through Israel over the nations. These 4 are shown as coming together for the final Gentile Global Government. (Rev. 13)

I wrote 1 - 4 instead of just 4 as that is the order they arise in. (see Dan. 7)

 

[Marilyn C]

Are you doing an overview of Revelation or an overview of how you interpret other parts of the bible (Daniel 7) ?

-------------------------------------------------------------

Marilyn, you have the overview concept of Revelation wrong. Mostly what Revelation and the entire Bible represents is the conflict between God and Satan. Revelation represents the end of the age.



Marilyn, from the appearance of your presentation - it appears to me that you are doing a "grouping" of Revelation chapters, not what I would consider an overview, imo.

This is my understanding of the overview of revelation in relation to the `unveiling of Jesus,` as He is known in the heavenly realms. Note I have placed those titles on the diagram in my op. I read that in one of C.J.Rolls` (International Bible teacher) books. It has helped me understand revelation much better.

 

[Marilyn C]

Why wouldn't it, by that logic be called "the inheritance scroll". Does the term "judgement scroll" appear in the translation you are using? It is not called a scroll in the kjv, but a book. What that book is about is the end of the age.

The book, or scroll if you want to call it that, is "the end of the age" book.

I think, if I were you, have the scroll as a background to encapsulate the entire overview, and title it the end of the age scroll. But actually I would prefer end of the age book, as opposed to scroll, imo. Put the translation you are using in the upper right corner. "kjv" for example.

Revelation 6 overview, should be specific to Revelation 6. Same for Revelation 7, the overview should be specific to Revelation 7.

An overview of Revelation 6 is six of the seals to the end of the age book are removed by Jesus and the book opened. Revealing, the four horsemen riding through the apocalypse of the first four seals. During which time, many martyrs faithful to the testimony of Jesus, will be slain, as revealed by the fifth seal as it is removed.

The sixth seal of Revelation, reveals the sign of the Son of man appearing in Heaven, ready to execute judgement on the evil men of the world who had martyred the great tribulation saints of the apocalypse.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Greek word for the English `book,` is `biblion,` a roll, scroll, book, writing. So either can be used. I like the scroll as it gives a historical look.

And yes, the scroll or book could have been in the background for all the trib, however I was just showing the - beginning, middle and end points.

As to separating each I don`t see that as you do. I was concentrating on what was occurring at the beginning, middle and end points.

 

[Marilyn C]

Marilyn, from the appearance of your presentation - it appears to me that you are doing a "grouping" of Revelation chapters, not what I would consider an overview, imo.

Yes, grouping of what is happening in each section (groupings of chapters) in relation to the beginning, middle and end points of the trib.

 

[Marilyn C]

It talks about the same group only from different point of view. 144000 because they are perfect and uncountable because they are great.

So the 144000 are all Christians, from every nation, including Christians from carnal Israel.

In the Bible, the same things are sometimes described from a different point of view. For example, the metals in Daniel 2 and the beasts in Daniel 7 both refer to the same kingdoms but from different perspectives.

Hi John,

Thank you for contributing. For what you say to be true we would need scriptures.

 

[Marilyn C]

@Marilyn C

Marilyn, take a look at this version of your chart, that I came up with.... Your chart inspired me to come up with my own overview chart.


View attachment 335983

Hi Dougg,

yes, that is very helpful. However, as I said previously, I was showing how what is happening in those chapters relate to the - beginning, middle and end points of the trib.