abstaining from sin not equal to good works?

cuja1

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Get saved ;)


As there is no real "test" it is simply a matter of faith. Trusting in God and His salvation. Submitting your life, all of your life to Christ. The Bible tells us "whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life"

Sorry, I'm not trying to be snarky or pin you to a wall, I'm actually interested in what you have to say.
When you say submitting all your life to Christ, it seems that you are saying that there is something needed for salvation apart from faith. How do you get saved? Can you stop trusting in Him? If so, then doesn't that mean you can lose your salvation?
 
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hedrick

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I think there’s a difference between abstaining from sin and doing good. However it depends upon what you mean by sin.a

Jesus expects us to love others, and to show it in our actions. Some kinds of sin aren’t all the relevant to this. Abstaining from what some think of as sin: drinking, dancing, certain types of sexual activity, isn’t going to make a difference to others.

But as you widen the concept of sin away from violations of purity to include things that abuse others, and even sins of omission, they do become relevant. Still, I think we need to think in broader terms that avoiding sin, and instead emphasize loving God and neighbor, even though there’s overlap between the two.
 
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sdowney717

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Sorry, I'm not trying to be snarky or pin you to a wall, I'm actually interested in what you have to say.
When you say submitting all your life to Christ, it seems that you are saying that there is something needed for salvation apart from faith. How do you get saved? Can you stop trusting in Him? If so, then doesn't that mean you can lose your salvation?

Romans 10, you are saved by calling on the Lord Jesus to save you. For everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.

8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach):
9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”
12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him.
13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

Sure it sounds very formula like, but scripture is truth, we have this promise from God as a firm
foundation. How many are willing to believe and confess their faith in Christ openly and make the good testimony?
Some people will refuse to say Jesus is LORD, they just can't say so. They remain silent. This is a spiritual matter between His Holy Spirit and our our own spirit.

The spirit of a new creation in Christ cries out to God as Father.
Romans 8:15
For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.”

Galatians 4:6
And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out, “Abba, Father!”

 
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hedrick

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There’s an interesting problem. Jesus says to be saved keep the commandments. Paul says if you have faith you’ll be saved. Is there a way to accept both?

I think there is. Salvation has several aspects. Jesus uses it both to refer to someone who makes the right decision now (Luke 19:9) and future salvation at the end (Mark 10:22). But there’s a connection. In Rom 6, Paul says that those who are in Christ die with him to sin and are raised to new life.

The Reformed tradition has normally used salvation to refer to an entire process, God’s call, our response of faith, and a Christian life based on justification and sanctification. After all, God’s purpose isn’t just to keep us out of hell, but to restore his image in us.

Rom 10:6, I would say, refers to the beginning of this process. Those who have faith will be saved, because faith places them in Christ, through whom they will be renewed. (Rom 6) Thus faith “leads to salvation” (10:10). But salvation is more than faith. Jesus is clear that our lives are based upon love of God and neighbor, and he emphasizes God's willingness to forgive, but still, his teaching about judgement makes it clear that God expects to see the love shown in action.
 
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brotherjerry

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Amen Sdowney

And Cuja I know your not trying to pin me to a wall. :)

But in essence what I said was true...submission. Being a follower of Christ is to be a slave to the righteousness...This is a willing relationship to be a bond servant of Christ. Bond servant is different from a slave in that in the Roman times and the original Hebrew concept this was a willing servitude, and it was also a permanent position. It is literally turning your entire life over to God.

The thing is, we will all still sin. I still sin. But I know that when I sin, God does not hold that against me, Christ is my advocate before God. It is like when you come to the gate of Heaven Peter is standing there ready to turn you away, and Jesus steps up and says "Hey Peter...he's good..he's with me."

I know when I was saved I could literally feel my conscious change. Things I was doing in my life immediately felt wrong. I was heading down a dark path, and by dark I mean occult. My friends and I played with Ouija boards, attempted spells, all sorts of stuff. When I got saved I immediately knew that was not what I should associate with. I did good for about a year, was in church, was active and building up my faith. I was 18-19 during this period. To old to be in the youth group, and the church did not have a ton of college students. So there was no one for me to really be discipled by, I kinda floundered in my studies, in my overall walk. Life interrupted me and I joined the Navy. I was a typical sailor...drunk and trying to hook up with the local women at every port (key word there is try :) LOL ). I did not have a great testimony for God during that time. And yeah if you looked at me you would probably would not think "there goes a Christian".

Well towards the end of my time in the Navy I met a girl, we got married and had my first son. That led me out of the service. We both started getting back into a church family, and building our faith back up. But we were going through the motions really. After a couple of years I ended up getting hooked on online gambling. This lost me my house as I was gambling the mortgage payment away. I was getting beat down.

I sat up one night just utterly defeated, they were going to put the notice on the door in just a few days, there was no hope of turning back now. Something inside of me had me open my Bible to the book of James.
James 1:6-8 "But he must ask in faith without doubting, for the one who doubts is like the surf of the sea, driven and tossed by the wind. For that man ought not to expect that he will receive anything from the Lord, being a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways".
WOW that was me...I was tossed and turned...and every time I got my paycheck I would pray to God. I would pray that He would get me a big pay out this time around so I can get the house payment caught up, and all the other bills caught up, and most importantly...so that my wife would not find out. See I had not told her what was going on.
I kept reading:
James 1:22 "But prove yourselves doers of the word, and not merely hearers of the word who delude themselves."
James 2:14 "What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?"
James 2:17 "Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself"
That was me. I had faith, I knew God had saved my soul already. But the works that I had were empty. I went to church, but I did it because that is what I told myself I needed to do, not because I wanted to go in order to please God, praise God, and to worship God with others. We did not practice our faith anywhere but at church, we did not participate in events other than church, or anything like that.
James 2:18 "But someone may well say, 'You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.' "
When I read that I was broken. Our works, what we do, should be an outward expression of what God has done to us on the inside. It was at that moment that I realized while I had trusted God with my soul, I had not trusted God with my life. I cried. God played some flashbacks in my mind, the many times He provided me an opportunity to tell my wife, come clean, and fix it. He showed me different opportunities where He offered me a hand up, and I refused it. I had not submitted to Him my life.

Needless to say my wife stuck with me, 22 years this year. We both realized that we had not really submitted our lives as individuals, nor our marriage as a couple to God. And since then our marriage has been smooth sailing.

See even though I was saved when I was 18, I was like the Hebrews that were saved from Egypt. They were saved but they had not yet submitted to God. God promised them a plentiful land. And 3 days after being saved they started to grumble and make demands and whine. It is because they had not submitted to God and trust God that God made them wander the wilderness for 40 years. Once the grumbling generation died off the new generation finally submitted to God's desire and God brought them to the land of milk and honey. So for that time after being saved, until that night reading James, I was like one of the Hebrews wandering in the wilderness. God was leading me but I was grumbling. I thought I could do things on my own, and just use God as a safety net. But that is not what God wants.

While there is no strait formula for salvation, as in anyone that says 4 hail Mary's while standing on one leg will get salvation. We must work out our own salvation as the Bible says...we each have our own hurdles to overcome. But for each of us, salvation is obtained the same way, by having faith. What it would take for you, or for the next guy to make that step of faith is what may be different for each of them. But it is all about faith.
 
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ZacharyB

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I am not understanding you here Zach...are you really saying that obeying God is not doing good works?
If that is truly what you meant to say, could you then enlighten us as to what you would classify as good works?
IMO, the classic example of good works (deeds) is Matthew 25.
Even though it is about judging nations ...
I have used it as pertaining to individuals (to my shame).
No more.
 
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ZacharyB

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Jesus says to be saved keep the commandments.
Paul says if you have faith you’ll be saved.
In Rom 6, Paul says that those who are in Christ
die with him to sin and are raised to new life.
Thou has a much better grasp on spiritual Truth than do most.
However, it seems you may have missed one of the major things
that Paul keeps stressing in Romans 6 ...
True believers ...
(1) received the new nature
(2) received the Holy Spirit
(3) are no longer in bondage to sin (they no longer HAVE TO sin)

Then, Paul warns them that ...
IF they choose to be slaves of sin, they face eternal death!
This is actually rejecting God's free gift of the trinity of grace above!
Of course, there is more to God's grace than just this.
 
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brotherjerry

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IMO, the classic example of good works (deeds) is Matthew 25.
Even though it is about judging nations ...
I have used it as pertaining to individuals (to my shame).
No more.
But Zach...what I am questioning is that you said was "co-operating with God by obeying His commandments is not doing good works" (emphasis mine)

That sounds like you are saying cooperating with God by obeying his commandments is something you do not consider to be good works. So God says "Do not commit adultery", are you saying if I do not commit adultery that is not a good work, it is a bad work? So I should commit adultery because that is a good work? Sorry just seems like you may not have meant what you said, or meant to express it slightly differently because that is confusing.
 
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brotherjerry

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Thou has a much better grasp on spiritual Truth than do most.
However, it seems you may have missed one of the major things
that Paul keeps stressing in Romans 6 ...
True believers ...
(1) received the new nature
(2) received the Holy Spirit
(3) are no longer in bondage to sin (they no longer HAVE TO sin)

Then, Paul warns them that ...
IF they choose to be slaves of sin, they face eternal death!
This is actually rejecting God's free gift of the trinity of grace above!
Of course, there is more to God's grace than just this.
Exactly Zach....that is eternal security doctrine!!! Welcome to the light brother ;)
 
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cuja1

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Amen Sdowney

And Cuja I know your not trying to pin me to a wall. :)

But in essence what I said was true...submission. Being a follower of Christ is to be a slave to the righteousness...This is a willing relationship to be a bond servant of Christ. Bond servant is different from a slave in that in the Roman times and the original Hebrew concept this was a willing servitude, and it was also a permanent position. It is literally turning your entire life over to God.

The thing is, we will all still sin. I still sin. But I know that when I sin, God does not hold that against me, Christ is my advocate before God. It is like when you come to the gate of Heaven Peter is standing there ready to turn you away, and Jesus steps up and says "Hey Peter...he's good..he's with me."

I know when I was saved I could literally feel my conscious change. Things I was doing in my life immediately felt wrong. I was heading down a dark path, and by dark I mean occult. My friends and I played with Ouija boards, attempted spells, all sorts of stuff. When I got saved I immediately knew that was not what I should associate with. I did good for about a year, was in church, was active and building up my faith. I was 18-19 during this period. To old to be in the youth group, and the church did not have a ton of college students. So there was no one for me to really be discipled by, I kinda floundered in my studies, in my overall walk. Life interrupted me and I joined the Navy. I was a typical sailor...drunk and trying to hook up with the local women at every port (key word there is try :) LOL ). I did not have a great testimony for God during that time. And yeah if you looked at me you would probably would not think "there goes a Christian".

Well towards the end of my time in the Navy I met a girl, we got married and had my first son. That led me out of the service. We both started getting back into a church family, and building our faith back up. But we were going through the motions really. After a couple of years I ended up getting hooked on online gambling. This lost me my house as I was gambling the mortgage payment away. I was getting beat down.

I sat up one night just utterly defeated, they were going to put the notice on the door in just a few days, there was no hope of turning back now. Something inside of me had me open my Bible to the book of James.
James 1:6-8 "But he must ask in faith without doubting, for the one who doubts is like the surf of the sea, driven and tossed by the wind. For that man ought not to expect that he will receive anything from the Lord, being a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways".
WOW that was me...I was tossed and turned...and every time I got my paycheck I would pray to God. I would pray that He would get me a big pay out this time around so I can get the house payment caught up, and all the other bills caught up, and most importantly...so that my wife would not find out. See I had not told her what was going on.
I kept reading:
James 1:22 "But prove yourselves doers of the word, and not merely hearers of the word who delude themselves."
James 2:14 "What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?"
James 2:17 "Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself"
That was me. I had faith, I knew God had saved my soul already. But the works that I had were empty. I went to church, but I did it because that is what I told myself I needed to do, not because I wanted to go in order to please God, praise God, and to worship God with others. We did not practice our faith anywhere but at church, we did not participate in events other than church, or anything like that.
James 2:18 "But someone may well say, 'You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.' "
When I read that I was broken. Our works, what we do, should be an outward expression of what God has done to us on the inside. It was at that moment that I realized while I had trusted God with my soul, I had not trusted God with my life. I cried. God played some flashbacks in my mind, the many times He provided me an opportunity to tell my wife, come clean, and fix it. He showed me different opportunities where He offered me a hand up, and I refused it. I had not submitted to Him my life.

Needless to say my wife stuck with me, 22 years this year. We both realized that we had not really submitted our lives as individuals, nor our marriage as a couple to God. And since then our marriage has been smooth sailing.

See even though I was saved when I was 18, I was like the Hebrews that were saved from Egypt. They were saved but they had not yet submitted to God. God promised them a plentiful land. And 3 days after being saved they started to grumble and make demands and whine. It is because they had not submitted to God and trust God that God made them wander the wilderness for 40 years. Once the grumbling generation died off the new generation finally submitted to God's desire and God brought them to the land of milk and honey. So for that time after being saved, until that night reading James, I was like one of the Hebrews wandering in the wilderness. God was leading me but I was grumbling. I thought I could do things on my own, and just use God as a safety net. But that is not what God wants.

While there is no strait formula for salvation, as in anyone that says 4 hail Mary's while standing on one leg will get salvation. We must work out our own salvation as the Bible says...we each have our own hurdles to overcome. But for each of us, salvation is obtained the same way, by having faith. What it would take for you, or for the next guy to make that step of faith is what may be different for each of them. But it is all about faith.

Thank you for that testimony brotherjerry. I love to hear things like that because it lets you know where people are coming from when they talk to you about what they believe. To me it brings more authenticity to a discussion.

It seems like people usually have to fail and mess up to some extent before they can really get to a point where they can live there lives for Jesus.

The pastor at my work once said life is repentance. To me that means we are constantly growing. We are not perfect but overtime, as we repent we get closer to the goal of perfection that God wants for us. I don't know if that's right or not, but it seems like the best I have to go on right now.
 
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Wordkeeper

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It is offered by God's grace and accepted through faith. No amount of helping little old ladies cross the road, reading your Bible, going to church, donating time and money to help the poor, none of that will earn you salvation is what Paul was saying.

Salvation has been described as being made new creatures. However, what if the believer who has faith, has even confessed with his lips, keeps getting dominated by evil desires?

Has his faith and his confession failed?
 
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sdowney717

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Scripture and history is full of examples of people who fall away.
And scripture describes what God says and does about our being saved.
The people who departed from Christ when He was on the earth left because they did NOT like what Christ was saying.
So the danger for their faith walk is in those who in someway take offense at Christ, they will become his enemy, since those who are not with Christ are anti-christ. Perhaps they doubt or blame God for their situation, maybe they get embittered by life while claiming to be His follower.
Becoming embittered defiles many persons in this life.
They are opened up therefore to the enemy Satan who is still a force on this world system for evil.

Here is a good promise from God about our minds in v3 that says.

Isaiah 26New King James Version (NKJV)

A Song of Salvation
In that day this song will be sung in the land of Judah:

“We have a strong city;
God will appoint salvation for walls and bulwarks.
2 Open the gates,
That the righteous nation which keeps the truth may enter in.

3 You will keep him in perfect peace,
Whose mind is stayed on You,
Because he trusts in You.
4 Trust in the Lord forever,
For in YAH, the Lord, is everlasting strength.
 
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brotherjerry

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Salvation has been described as being made new creatures. However, what if the believer who has faith, has even confessed with his lips, keeps getting dominated by evil desires?

Has his faith and his confession failed?
How can a new creature become an old creature? How can one who "having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit" (1 Peter 3:18) in turn be put to death in spirit and made alive in the flesh again?

Those things are what the Bible describes as having happened to those that believe. But never once does the Bible use the same words to describe a person who is saved, losing their salvation.

The Bible does mention some things about when a saint sins.
1 John 2:1 "And if anyone sins, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous" Christ will be there to advocate for us, that His blood has covered our sins...all of our sins, past/present/future.

1 Corinthians 3:13-15 "each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work. If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through the fire"
All the "works" we do after being saved will be measured by fire for quality. If we have performed the works of God, reward. If it gets burnt up, that man will still be saved, but will suffer loss...no reward.

So you tell me is the person you spoke of someone who never really experienced the spiritual birth...because being reborn in the flesh is impossible...or are they stacking up works that will be burnt up in the fire of judgement?
 
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Soyeong

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2 Timothy 3:16-17 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.

1 John 3:4 Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness.

Romans 2:13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.

It is OT Scriptures, specifically God's law, that equips us to do every good work, and sin is defined as lawlessness, so I would say that abstaining from sin includes doing good works, but I'm not sure that obeying the negative commands, like thou shalt not murder, qualifies as doing good works.

I would draw a distinction in that it is doers of the law who will be saved, but we aren't saved by doing the law. It is not the good works themselves that save us, lest anyone should boast, but rather it is being in a correct relationship with God based on faith that saves us, and it is that same faith that causes us to be a doer of God's law. This is what Paul is getting at in Romans 3:21-31, where we are saved by faith apart from the law, but that our faith still upholds the law. We are to obey God's law not in order to become saved, but because we have been saved. God didn't make the Israelites obey Him before He saved them out of Egypt, but rather he saved them first, then commanded their obedience to the law. It is not the case that when we are saved that we stop sinning, but it is the case that we stop practicing sin and start practicing repentance from lawlessness. Part of trusting God for our salvation from sin is trusting God to lead us away from sinning, which is part of our sanctification, as God makes us to be more like Messiah, in following his perfectly sinless example of obedience to God's law.
 
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Wordkeeper

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How can a new creature become an old creature? How can one who "having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit" (1 Peter 3:18) in turn be put to death in spirit and made alive in the flesh again?

Those things are what the Bible describes as having happened to those that believe. But never once does the Bible use the same words to describe a person who is saved, losing their salvation.

The Bible does mention some things about when a saint sins.
1 John 2:1 "And if anyone sins, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous" Christ will be there to advocate for us, that His blood has covered our sins...all of our sins, past/present/future.

1 Corinthians 3:13-15 "each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work. If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through the fire"
All the "works" we do after being saved will be measured by fire for quality. If we have performed the works of God, reward. If it gets burnt up, that man will still be saved, but will suffer loss...no reward.

So you tell me is the person you spoke of someone who never really experienced the spiritual birth...because being reborn in the flesh is impossible...or are they stacking up works that will be burnt up in the fire of judgement?

So the new creature is pure and holy, but he has some work to do, to make himself more pure and more holy?
 
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brotherjerry

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We become a new creature, one that is no longer in the image of Adam, but in the image of God...we have the Holy Spirit in us. We are a new creature of the Spirit. What we then "work" on is conforming our flesh to the obedience of Christ as well. It is because we live in this world (but are not of this world anymore) that we have to be as Christ was while He was on this world. Being saved makes us Christlike in spirit...now we also should be Christlike in flesh.

For it is through the flesh that we are to spread the Gospel. No one ever got saved without someone else doing something. Printed a tract, printed a Bible, said "God Bless you" to someone (not only as a response to a sneeze), always interact with people in a polite and Christlike manner, showing compassion, etc, etc. That is building our own testimony for Christ.
 
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Soyeong

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So the new creature is pure and holy, but he has some work to do, to make himself more pure and more holy?

We are told to have holy conduct (1 Peter 1:14-16), but having a holy conduct does not make us more holy, but rather it is what someone who is holy is called to do. Likewise, someone who is a Firefighter goes out and fights fires, that's just what a Firefighter does. We are to obey God's law for how to have a holy conduct not in order to become holy, but because we have been made holy.
 
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