abstaining from sin not equal to good works?

[cuja1]

Do you think there is a difference between what the Bible calls good works and the abstinence from sin?

It seems to me that good works are things like adopting a child, giving money to the poor, helping your neighbor (good Samaritan), doing your best at your job. In general, doing good things.

Abstaining from sin to me is not lusting, not committing fornication, not lying, not coveting. In general, not doing what the Bible calls a sin.

What do you think? Is there a difference or are they one and the same as far as what the Bible calls good works?

 

[sdowney717]

Good works are those God had prepared beforehand for saved people to do.
Otherwise they are not good works that will count for us in God's sight as they are in a way apart from Christ and God's calling that leads us to being justified by faith.

A person who does good work, well, other people will like them as they benefit. They are doing good things but if they are apart from Christ they don't help that person's relationship to God and certainly don't qualify them for belonging to Christ and deserving of heaven and certainly then God gives them no eternal rewards.
Christ is the foundation stone in the life of a saved person. Saved people build upon the foundation. And the Day will declare it what they built upon the foundation work God did for them in Christ.

Everyone has sinned, so the soul that sins, God says they will die. So all die.
Death came into the world through sin and so then all die. But for those in Christ , all will be made alive, since Christ overcame sin and death. And so those who believe in Christ also are made alive as Christ came back from the dead and God declared Christ righteous, He was the perfect, spotless Lamb of God.
Christ never sinned, so can not die and stay dead. So God raised Him from the dead.
Christ being innocent deserved not to die, but He becomes Sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. This is a substitutionary atonement.
He took our sin, and we were given His eternal life.

 

[ZacharyB]

Your best guess is correct ...
co-operating with God by obeying His commandments is not doing good works.

 

[brotherjerry]

Your best guess is correct ...
co-operating with God by obeying His commandments is not doing good works.

I am not understanding you here Zach...are you really saying that obeying God is not doing good works?
If that is truly what you meant to say, could you then enlighten us as to what you would classify as good works?

 

[cuja1]

I am not understanding you here Zach...are you really saying that obeying God is not doing good works?
If that is truly what you meant to say, could you then enlighten us as to what you would classify as good works?

That is, sort of, what I am inferring as well. Not sinning is obeying God, doing good works is not really obeying God, so much as doing good things, through God's power, because we love God.

Not sinning (fornication, lying, murder, etc...) is not what is meant in the Bible by good works.

 

[sdowney717]

That is, sort of, what I am inferring as well. Not sinning is obeying God, doing good works is not really obeying God, so much as doing good things, through God's power, because we love God.

Not sinning (fornication, lying, murder, etc...) is not what is meant in the Bible by good works.

Yes, that is just abstaining from doing sinful things.
Even if you could live a sinless life, even one sin, would make you guilty of sin and then you deserve death.
There is no scales between the good and the bad things a person did regarding our deserving hell or heaven , we are way before that already sinners.

The old testament LAW said that even sins done in ignorance are a transgression against the Lord, and required a sacrifice. So the whole world lies before God guilty of sin even if they did not know any better. God holds them still accountable.

 

[brotherjerry]

But God did not stop at "don't sin".
1 Timothy 6:18 Instruct them to do good, to be rich in good works, to be generous and ready to share,
The Great Commission "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, batptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit"
"Love they neighbor"
The Bible is full of "commands" for us to go and DO, they would be obeying God would they not?

We as people should not try and determine what is 'good' and what is 'bad', that is what caused Adam to fall.

Good works are not just deeds, it is thoughts, wisdom...our whole being. And Christ has to be the root of the deeds. Not our church, not our wife, not our salvation, but Christ. We should think, act, do good things as an offering to God, not because of what He will do for us, but what He has already done for us...He died for us.

And we are commanded to do just that....so again not certain where you get the idea that doing good works in not really obeying God?

 

[Gregory the NonTheologian]

Do you think there is a difference between what the Bible calls good works and the abstinence from sin?

It seems to me that good works are things like adopting a child, giving money to the poor, helping your neighbor (good Samaritan), doing your best at your job. In general, doing good things.

Abstaining from sin to me is not lusting, not committing fornication, not lying, not coveting. In general, not doing what the Bible calls a sin.

What do you think? Is there a difference or are they one and the same as far as what the Bible calls good works?

How would you define "good works" and "sin"? (Or maybe that is what you are asking of us). You have given some examples of both from your perspective, but these are examples. Perhaps thinking on the precise definition of each term, using Scripture as a guide, would help us to answer the question.

 

[cuja1]

How would you define "good works" and "sin"? (Or maybe that is what you are asking of us). You have given some examples of both from your perspective, but these are examples. Perhaps thinking on the precise definition of each term, using Scripture as a guide, would help us to answer the question.

Sin is doing something that God instructs you not to do or not doing something that God instructs you to do. Would you agree?

This issue is extremely important because I think the whole crux of what it takes to be saved may depend on this distinction.

 

[cuja1]

But God did not stop at "don't sin".
1 Timothy 6:18 Instruct them to do good, to be rich in good works, to be generous and ready to share,
The Great Commission "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, batptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit"
"Love they neighbor"
The Bible is full of "commands" for us to go and DO, they would be obeying God would they not?

We as people should not try and determine what is 'good' and what is 'bad', that is what caused Adam to fall.

Good works are not just deeds, it is thoughts, wisdom...our whole being. And Christ has to be the root of the deeds. Not our church, not our wife, not our salvation, but Christ. We should think, act, do good things as an offering to God, not because of what He will do for us, but what He has already done for us...He died for us.

And we are commanded to do just that....so again not certain where you get the idea that doing good works in not really obeying God?

I guess what I'm trying to get at is what is meant specifically by good deeds. We know they are not a requirement of salvation, they are evidence of it. Zach has shown that there are verses that certain sins will cause a person to go to hell if un-repented of. To me that's a major conflict. How can good deeds not be necessary for salvation and at the same time be a requirement for salvation?

I Corithinians 6:10
Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

To me this says that abstaining from these sins is a requirement for salvation. The only way to resolve this for me is to see these as commandments but are not what the Bible is referring to when it says:
"8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. "

It is referring to preaching, feeding the poor, basically doing good is what is meant by works. "Not doing bad" is not what is meant by works.

Maybe that is the distinction. Doing good is good works, not doing bad is not "good works". Doing bad causes death.

 

[brotherjerry]

Cuja.

As it pertains to conditional salvation and much of what Zach has talked about, I do not think you will get a clear answer, I have tried as well.

But in reference to the verses that you have put up and the idea you have. 1 Corinthians is pretty clear...if sin is your master then you are not going to heaven. As for Ephesians, Paul did not indicate good or bad works...because it does not matter...Paul was saying that works are irrelevant. Paul was once again indicating that nothing we can do can earn salvation. It is offered by God's grace and accepted through faith. No amount of helping little old ladies cross the road, reading your Bible, going to church, donating time and money to help the poor, none of that will earn you salvation is what Paul was saying.

 

[Gregory the NonTheologian]

Sin is doing something that God instructs you not to do or not doing something that God instructs you to do. Would you agree?

This issue is extremely important because I think the whole crux of what it takes to be saved may depend on this distinction.

I agree wholeheartedly that it is the crux, as you well put it. I think we also need to discuss what we think it means to "be saved", but that is another topic for later perhaps.

Regarding the definition of "sin", there are three things that occur to me.

First, it is interesting to note that the Greek word for "sin" used in both the New Testament and the Septuagint originally meant something like "missing the mark" or "missing the target". It was actually used in the Odyssey to describe the act of a someone missing their target with a spear or bow. It also seems to have been used metaphorically to mean "missing the point", with the same meaning that that phrase has in English. I only bring this up because it indicates to me that somewhere deep in the etymology of the Greek word there is a connection with an act of omission, rather than commission.

Second, we actually have a perfectly clear definition of sin in Scripture: Sin is lawlessness [anomia] (1 John 3:4) - that is, that which is opposite or contrary to the law. I would submit that the only thing we need to understand about the law that is referred to here is that, as the Lord taught us, all of it hangs on two great commandments: to love God with our whole being and to love our neighbor as ourself. When we are not doing these things, we are "missing the mark".

The reason I was hesitant to agree immediately with your definition is that the way it was stated was it seemed to refer to two things that were in opposition, rather than to an existential state. Sin is, I believe, more than simple acts of commission or omission (though we may refer to specific instances of falling short as "sins"). I believe that sin means acting contrary to the law that is written in our hearts (Jeremiah 31:33 LXX; Hebrews 8:10, 10:16). Sin is, I would say, "missing the point" of our existence.

 

[brotherjerry]

Absolutely Gregory. Sin is one of those words that has relevance at two different levels. A state of being as well as specific acts.

 

[cuja1]

Cuja.

As it pertains to conditional salvation and much of what Zach has talked about, I do not think you will get a clear answer, I have tried as well.

But in reference to the verses that you have put up and the idea you have. 1 Corinthians is pretty clear...if sin is your master then you are not going to heaven. As for Ephesians, Paul did not indicate good or bad works...because it does not matter...Paul was saying that works are irrelevant. Paul was once again indicating that nothing we can do can earn salvation. It is offered by God's grace and accepted through faith. No amount of helping little old ladies cross the road, reading your Bible, going to church, donating time and money to help the poor, none of that will earn you salvation is what Paul was saying.

Is it your position that more than faith or belief is required for eternal life then?

 

[brotherjerry]

Is it your position that more than faith or belief is required for eternal life then?

Nope not at all. Salvation is by faith.

 

[cuja1]

Nope not at all. Salvation is by faith.

How do you reconcile that belief then with your belief that if sin is your master you won't go to heaven?

 

[brotherjerry]

Salvation is a change in the person. It is described as being born again.

John 3:3 ..."unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of heaven"
John 3:6 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which born of the Spirit is spirit"
1 Peter 1:3 ..."who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope..."
1 Peter 1:23 "for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable"...

We are told that being born again we are new creatures in Christ
2 Corinthians 5:17 "Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold new things have come."

Now what we also see is that this new life is no longer a slave to sin as our old life was.
Romans 6:6,7 "knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; for he who has died is free from sin"
Romans 6:11 "Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive in Christ Jesus"
Romans 6:14 "For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace"
Romans 6:17,18 "But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, and having been freed from sin you became slaves of righteousness."

This new life through the new birth is the eternal life
Romans 6:8,9 " Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him.

So it is easy to see that there is nothing to reconcile. Being saved means that sin is no longer your master. This also settles well with the idea that if someone is still a slave to sin, they never became the new creature....they were never born again...because just as in life, you can only have one birth.

 

[cuja1]

Salvation is a change in the person. It is described as being born again.

John 3:3 ..."unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of heaven"
John 3:6 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which born of the Spirit is spirit"
1 Peter 1:3 ..."who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope..."
1 Peter 1:23 "for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable"...

We are told that being born again we are new creatures in Christ
2 Corinthians 5:17 "Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold new things have come."

Now what we also see is that this new life is no longer a slave to sin as our old life was.
Romans 6:6,7 "knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; for he who has died is free from sin"
Romans 6:11 "Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive in Christ Jesus"
Romans 6:14 "For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace"
Romans 6:17,18 "But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, and having been freed from sin you became slaves of righteousness."

This new life through the new birth is the eternal life
Romans 6:8,9 " Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him.

So it is easy to see that there is nothing to reconcile. Being saved means that sin is no longer your master. This also settles well with the idea that if someone is still a slave to sin, they never became the new creature....they were never born again...because just as in life, you can only have one birth.

Makes sense. So if a person continues to sin, they should question whether they have been born again?

 

[brotherjerry]

For the most part yes.

The Bible tells us 1 John 5:13 that can encompass the whole Bible "These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life"

So the Bible can tell us how we can be certain that by studying the Word we can be sure of our salvation and secure in the promises that God provides.

 

[cuja1]

For the most part yes.

The Bible tells us 1 John 5:13 that can encompass the whole Bible "These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life"

So the Bible can tell us how we can be certain that by studying the Word we can be sure of our salvation and secure in the promises that God provides.

So if a person tests oneself and finds that they are not saved, what do they do at that point, if anything?