Abraham's sin

[mmksparbud]

Whzt you mean to say is 'ASTRONOMICAL' NOT ASTROLOGICAL"
as·tro·nom·i·cal
[ˌastrəˈnämək(ə)l]
planetary · stellar · celestial · astral


astrological

Related to astrological: horoscope
as·trol·o·gy
(ə-strŏl′ə-jē)

Astrological is dealing with horoscopes, astronomical is the study of stars and planets
n.
1. The study of the positions and motions of celestial bodies in the belief that they have an influence on the course of natural earthly occurrences and human affairs.
2. Obsolete Astronomy.

 

[CherubRam]

Whzt you mean to say is 'ASTRONOMICAL' NOT ASTROLOGICAL"
as·tro·nom·i·cal
[ˌastrəˈnämək(ə)l]
planetary · stellar · celestial · astral


astrological

Related to astrological: horoscope
as·trol·o·gy
(ə-strŏl′ə-jē)

Astrological is dealing with horoscopes, astronomical is the study of stars and planets
n.
1. The study of the positions and motions of celestial bodies in the belief that they have an influence on the course of natural earthly occurrences and human affairs.
2. Obsolete Astronomy.

I was not aware that it has been ruled as obsolete for Astronomy.

 

[gadar perets]

Astronomy and Astrology are two different things.

Correct, but astrology and astrological are not. They are the same thing.

 

[mmksparbud]

No, they are not. Astrological is referencing the stars and planets for the purpose of foretelling the future.

Astronomical is the study of the stars and planets ---
Astronomy is --there will be a solar eclipse on such a date, because of the path of the planets in relation to the sun, it is not you will meet a handsome young man on such a date, that is astrological.
The study of the solar system is not prohibited by God. They are for signs, that is how they did a lot of their planting, and the Jewish calendar is lunar based, and their feasts were lunar based. To use those objects to foretell the future is what is prohibited.

 

[AbbaLove]

BTW, the definition of astrology and astrological are the same.

​

Perhaps you meant astronomical rather than astrological?

It's OK for the author to backtrack on his initial (#1) statement if he now thinks Abraham really didn't sin. However, he shouldn't be too hasty.

Is it not possible that Abraham's use of astrological signs to put forth a prophecy was in fact a sin if influenced by what he learned from the misuse of astronomical signs by his pagan ancestors?

Was the use of stargazing astrology by the wise men from the East considered a sin in Judah? Perhaps the so-called wise men from the East were descendants of one of the lost tribes of Israel that still studied stargazing astrology. Would that be considered a sin being that stargazing astrology in Judah at the time of Yeshua's birth was apparently discouraged (sinful). On the other hand is it possible that the stargazing astrology used by the wise men from the East was not a misuse of astronomical signs and therefore not sinful? If the author believes all astrology is sin then one would have to conclude that the author believes the stargazing "astrology" of the wise men from the East was sinful.

What GOD intends for good can be abused and misused by secular (pagan) humanity. The irony (if irony) is that the stargazing astrology by the wise men from the East is generally NOT considered a sin by Christians and Messianic Jews. On the other hand it's possible that Abraham's stargazing astrology to put forth a prophecy was a sin if influenced by the misuse of astronomical signs that he learned from his pagan ancestors.

 

[gadar perets]

No, they are not. Astrological is referencing the stars and planets for the purpose of foretelling the future.

Astronomical is the study of the stars and planets ---
Astronomy is --there will be a solar eclipse on such a date, because of the path of the planets in relation to the sun, it is not you will meet a handsome young man on such a date, that is astrological.
The study of the solar system is not prohibited by God. They are for signs, that is how they did a lot of their planting, and the Jewish calendar is lunar based, and their feasts were lunar based. To use those objects to foretell the future is what is prohibited.

If your reply was directed at me, we are in agreement.

 

[gadar perets]

Is it not possible that Abraham's use of astrological signs to put forth a prophecy was in fact a sin if influenced by what he learned from the misuse of astronomical signs by his pagan ancestors?

Do you have a prophecy in mind that Abraham put forth?

 

[mmksparbud]

Num_24:17 I shall see him, but not now: I shall behold him, but not nigh: there shall come a Star out of Jacob, and a Sceptre shall rise out of Israel, and shall smite the corners of Moab, and destroy all the children of Sheth.


This is not astrological prophecy--it is astronomical. The prophet was given a prediction by God that a star would be a sign---so the astronomers would be searching the skies for that star. It is not casting a horoscope and saying that aunt Martha is going to get into trouble if she goes to Moab when this star comes out, that would be astrological.

 

[mmksparbud]

If your reply was directed at me, we are in agreement.

No--cherubRam--

 

[AbbaLove]

Do you have a prophecy in mind that Abraham put forth?

That seems to be the question that we all would've liked the author of this thread to have answered by now. It seems the author didn't really think this through before posting his initial (#1) statement. It does sounds like he may be rethinking his earlier reference to Abraham's prophecy using "astrological signs" as not being sinful (see also #4 ... "Here is a small example of astrological prophecy."

Is the author just searching out our take on this? If he really means to say, "astrological prophecy" and not "astronomical prophecy" then one has to assume he considers "astrological prophecy" to be sin. The question here now seems to be whether or not "astronomical prophecy" is also a sin. You and others may say "what difference does it make?"; however it could make a big difference if the wise men from the East based there stargazing on "astronomical" signs and not pagan astrology (getting kind of heady heavy).

It's just like secular humanity to put the blame / onus on Abraham when it was the paganism of his ancestors and possibly any stargazing "astrologers" of the lost tribe of Israel that could be blamed ... NOT Abraham! The irony (if irony) is whether or not the wise men from the East were "stargazing astrologers" or observant men that studied astronomical signs ...

"Abram / Abraham (1800 BC) also gave prophecy using astrological signs. That is why Astrology is called Abraham's sin."​

The author of this thread initially stated that Abram / Abraham's (1800 BC) stargazing used pagan "astrological signs" of his pagan ancestors was sinful. It's evident from the author's original choice of words that he led us to consider that Abram / Abraham (1800 BC) sinned. His thread is challenging us to "rightly divide the word of truth" (2 Timothy 2:15) as to whether or not the wise men from the East were using astronomical signs and not "astrological" signs.

 

[CherubRam]

Attention! I am not saying that Abraham sinned, I am saying that Astrology is blamed upon Abraham.

 

[CherubRam]

Job 38:32. KJV

Canst thou bring forth Mazzaroth in his season? or canst thou guide Arcturus with his sons?


Job 38:3. NIV

32 Can you bring forth the constellations in their seasons[a]
or lead out the Bear[b] with its cubs?

Footnotes:

Job 38:32 Or the morning star in its season

Job 38:32 Or out Leo



My translation.


Can you bring forth the Morning Stars in their seasons? Or can you lead The Lion with his sons?

Morning Stars are the people of God.

Christ is The Lion of (Judah) the faithful.

The Lion Cubs are the Sons of God.


Traditionally seven of the stars were visible to the naked eye. The lost star leads to another prophecy, giving rise to only six men in the last days over six congregations. http://www.constellationsofwords.com/stars/pleiades.html

 

[CherubRam]

This will take place because the Jewish community ignores what I say.
Ezekiel 9:2
And I saw six men coming from the direction of the upper gate, which faces north, each with a deadly weapon in his hand. With them was a man clothed in linen who had a writing kit at his side. They came in and stood beside the bronze altar.

 

[CherubRam]

Zechariah 3:8

8 “‘Listen, High Priest of Joshua, you and your associates seated before you, who are men symbolic of things to come: I am going to bring my servant, the Branch. 9 See, the stone I have set in front of Joshua! There are seven eyes on that one stone, and I will engrave an inscription on it,’ says the Lord Almighty, ‘and I will remove the sin of this land in a single day.

10 “‘In that day each of you will invite your neighbor to sit under your vine and fig tree,’ declares the Lord Almighty.”

 

[AbbaLove]

This will take place because the Jewish community ignores what I say, (Ezekiel 9:2)

That's no revelation! The Jewish (ism) community didn't get it then and to this day doesn't believe that Yeshua is the slain Lamb of GOD (their Adonai and Savior). By the way are you possibly still hurting a little from the verbal slap you got for expressing your SOP opinion about "Messianic Judaism"? IMO you were courageous enough to express your sentiment during the open discussion about the SOP revision. Your comment concerns other Messianic Believers, but apparently was rebuffed being perceived as an insult. I mention this now because i was reluctant at the time to come to your defense. You made a good point that any "ism" religion invariably has been tinkered with by religious man. By the way i like your "Judaic Christian" title.
______________________

Now getting back to the thread i realize that you/we don't know whether Abraham ever made use of 12, 16 or whatever number of "astrological" symbols for the prophecy to which you refer ... which we agree are of pagan (demonic) origin.

IMO, the knowledge of certain star formations by Enoch was God-given and not demonic. However, as we all know secular man (and even religious man) has a way of corrupting what GOD meant for Good. To the extent that any heavenly stargazing of even heavenly astronomical signs by the scribes up to and during the time of Yeshua was forbidden ... possibly because of the influence of pagan stargazing "astrology" that creeps in, which played a role in the downfall of the Northern tribes leading to their Assyrian captivity and dispersion.

The unanswered question that still remains:
Do you have reason to believe that Abraham made use of the pagan astrology of his ancestors (1800 BC) with respect to the prophecy to which you refer in your first post? Are you in a round-about way inquiring of us whether or not we believe there is a legitimate use of astronomical signs of the heavens to confirm a previous prophecy (e.g. the "astronomical" stargazing of the wise men from the East).
________

OPPS! my apology to CherubRam ... believe it was
ContraMundum to whom i was referring ("ism").

 

[CherubRam]

Abraham did not engage in Astrology but was blamed for the creation of Astrology. Abraham told a prophetic story using the stars. This lead to people believing that there was something mystical about the stars.

 

[mmksparbud]

You do not seem to provide any support for you claims of astrology by Abraham.
The 3 wise men were not astrologers, they were astronomers who were looking for a sign thst God had given about a certain str. That is in no way astrology.
None of the verses provided are in any way indicative of Abraham using the stars to prophecy anything. If God talks about the stars--that is He right. Where are you getting your believe about "Abraham's sin?" I see nothing about it in the bible.
Who blames him for creating astrology??

 

[CherubRam]

You do not seem to provide any support for you claims of astrology by Abraham.
The 3 wise men were not astrologers, they were astronomers who were looking for a sign thst God had given about a certain str. That is in no way astrology.
None of the verses provided are in any way indicative of Abraham using the stars to prophecy anything. If God talks about the stars--that is He right. Where are you getting your believe about "Abraham's sin?" I see nothing about it in the bible.
Who blames him for creating astrology??

The belief that Abraham took part in Astrology comes from Jewish Mysticism. https://www.google.com/#q=Abraham+/+Astrology

 

[AbbaLove]

It would have been helpful if you had added that link in your #1 post that the statement was derived from Jewish Mysticism. Some of us still aren't certain if that statement is also your belief as a "Judaic Christian" or based on Jewish Mysticism which you ?question? as derived from man rather than coming from GOD.

Enoch (2967 BC) gave some prophecy using astrological signs. Abram / Abraham (1800 BC) also gave prophecy using astrological signs. That is why Astrology is called Abraham's sin. The Pyramids have the same same astrological signs from Joseph. https://www.google.com/#q=Abraham+/+Astrology

Being derived from Jewish Mysticism is indicative (IMO) of the corruption by religious man from what GOD originally intended for Good ... astronomical star movements and star formations.

Won't disagree with those that believe the stargazing of astronomical signs (not astrology) by "wise men" was GOD Ordained. It's possible the "wise men from the East" didn't have access to the Book of Micah and therefore were not aware of Micah 5:2 ... thus explaining why they stopped in Jerusalem to inquire of Herod and the scribes where the "ruler of Israel" the King of the Jews would be born.

In rethinking the "wise men from the East" what's the odds that they were descendants of the Jewish tribe of Judah whose ancestors had fled Judah hundreds of years earlier to escape the 3 waves of their Jewish brethren that were taken captive (Babylonian exile) beginning around 607 BC. In rethinking my previous opinion i doubt the "wise men from the East" were from one of the Northern Tribes.

"But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting." (Micah 5:2)​

Would they be called "wise men" if they dabbled in astrology? It would make some sense that any revelation about the "star" that they followed must have been revealed to them by GOD. This does suggest that it is not a sin or forbidden for "wise men" to study the stars. What has been confusing is that CherubRam's #4 reply (shown below) using "astrological prophecy" is misleading as "astrology" and "astrological" is generally associated with demonic activity by Messianics and Christians. Being that Job 38:31-36 are the Words of GOD spoken to Job then a Christian/Messianic has to conclude that the knowledge of star formations and their meaning is NOT astrology or astrological prophecy as those terms are generally associated with demonic activity by Messianics and Christians.

Here is a small example of astrological prophecy.
Job 9:9
He is the Maker of the (Bear / Lion) and Orion, the Pleiades and the constellations of the south.
Job 38:31
“Can you bind the (chains / twinkling) of the Pleiades? Can you loosen Orion’s belt?

Job 38:31-36 ~ spoken by GOD to Job (CJB)
31 Can you tie up the cords of the Pleiades or loosen the belt of Orion?
32 Can you lead out the constellations of the zodiac in their season or guide the Great Bear and its cubs?
33 Do you know the laws of the sky? Can you determine how they affect the earth?
34 Can you raise your voice to the clouds and make them cover you with a flood of rain?
35 Can you send lightning bolts on their way? Will they say to you, ‘Here we are’?
36 Who put wisdom in people’s inner parts? Who gave understanding to the mind?

What doesn't help is the use of the word "zodaic" in the CJB translation ... http://www.astrology-zodiac-signs.com/

Job 38:32
32 Canst thou bring forth Mazzaroth in his season? or canst thou guide Arcturus with his sons? (KJV)

In doing a Google search of the meaning of "Mazzaroth" the word is associated with the 12 signs of the zodaic. Has the word "Mazzaroth" been corrupted as i doubt GOD was referring to the 12 signs of the zodaic.

"All previous interpretations of the zodiac, whether pagan, Jewish, or Christian, have failed to account for the meaning of the sun's sequential path through the twelve zodiacal signs. Since the creation, the sun's path each year through the 12 zodiac signs has foretold the whole story of God's plan to redeem the creation through the nation of Israel. In doing so, it demonstrates that the God of Abraham is the source of the zodiac." ... http://www.answersinrevelation.org/Mazzaroth.html​

So where do we go from here? Who believes that GOD's Word (translated as "Mazzaroth") has been correctly interrupted/translated by Jewish Mystics in Job 38:32 or even by so-called Bible scholars that associate "Mazzaroth" with the 12 signs of the zodaic? Certainly NOT me!

 

[CherubRam]

I do not practice or believe in Astrology.