Abraham's sin

AbbaLove

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I do not practice or believe in Astrology.

Job 38:32(ESV)

Can you lead forth the Mazzaroth[a] in their season, or can you guide the Bear with its children?
a. Probably the name of a constellation.

Job 38:32 (NKJV)
Can you bring out Mazzaroth[a] in its season? Or can you guide the Great Bear with its cubs?
a. Literally Constellations.

Job 38:32 *(NIV) *(NLT) *(AMP) *(ONMB) and others read constellation or constellations
Can you bring forth the *constellations in their season?! Or can you guide the Bear with her sons?!

Job 38:32 (1599 GNV)
Canst thou bring forth [a]Mazzaroth in their time? canst thou also guide Arcturus with his sons?
a. Certain stars so called: some think they were the twelve signs.
b. The North star with those that are about him.

Job 38:32 (1899 DRA)
Canst thou bring forth the day star in its time, and make the evening star to rise upon the children of the earth?

GOD created the constellations; while paganism corrupted GOD's Good Intentions by contriving the 12 zodaic signs and astrology. Doubt that either Enoch or Job dabbled in astrology. However, the influence of Egyptian astrology over 400 (or 430) years and then the pagan practices of Israel's surrounding neighbors took its toll on all 12 tribes.

Do you have any reason to believe that Abraham ever dabbled in astrology either before or after GOD made a covenant with Abram (Genesis 15:1-21) ... http://www.bible-history.com/maps/6-abrahams-journeys.html
 
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CherubRam

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Job 38:32(ESV)

Can you lead forth the Mazzaroth[a] in their season, or can you guide the Bear with its children?
a. Probably the name of a constellation.

Job 38:32 (NKJV)
Can you bring out Mazzaroth[a] in its season? Or can you guide the Great Bear with its cubs?
a. Literally Constellations.

Job 38:32 *(NIV) *(NLT) *(AMP) *(ONMB) and others read constellation or constellations
Can you bring forth the *constellations in their season?! Or can you guide the Bear with her sons?!

Job 38:32 (1599 GNV)
Canst thou bring forth [a]Mazzaroth in their time? canst thou also guide Arcturus with his sons?
a. Certain stars so called: some think they were the twelve signs.
b. The North star with those that are about him.

Job 38:32 (1899 DRA)
Canst thou bring forth the day star in its time, and make the evening star to rise upon the children of the earth?

GOD created the constellations; while paganism corrupted GOD's Good Intentions by contriving the 12 zodaic signs and astrology. Doubt that either Enoch or Job dabbled in astrology. However, the influence of Egyptian astrology over 400 (or 430) years and then the pagan practices of Israel's surrounding neighbors took its toll on all 12 tribes.

Do you have any reason to believe that Abraham ever dabbled in astrology either before or after GOD made a covenant with Abram (Genesis 15:1-21) ... http://www.bible-history.com/maps/6-abrahams-journeys.html
Isaiah 8:18
Here am I, and the children the Lord has given me. We are signs and symbols in Israel from the Lord Almighty, who dwells on Mount Zion. The original signs were the twelve tribe banners. A "Bear" is parabolic for Satan, and the "Lion" is parabolic for Christ return with the people of God. The term "Morning Stars" agrees with the bible.

My translation.


Job 38:32. Can you bring forth the Morning Stars in their seasons? Or can you lead The Lion with his sons?
 
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CherubRam

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Post #1 has yet to give evidence that Jacob or Abraham said anything astrological.
Joseph
Genesis 37
5 Joseph had a dream, and when he told it to his brothers, they hated him all the more. 6 He said to them, “Listen to this dream I had: 7 We were binding sheaves of grain out in the field when suddenly my sheaf rose and stood upright, while your sheaves gathered around mine and bowed down to it.”

8 His brothers said to him, “Do you intend to reign over us? Will you actually rule us?” And they hated him all the more because of his dream and what he had said.

9 Then he had another dream, and he told it to his brothers. “Listen,” he said, “I had another dream, and this time the sun and moon and eleven stars were bowing down to me.”

10 When he told his father as well as his brothers, his father rebuked him and said, “What is this dream you had? Will your mother and I and your brothers actually come and bow down to the ground before you?” 11 His brothers were jealous of him, but his father kept the matter in mind.
 
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AbbaLove

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Post #1 has yet to give evidence that Jacob or Abraham said anything astrological.
CherubRam later added this link for further clarification ...
"Many people mistakenly believe that astrology is forbidden by Torah law and that the Torah discounts it as meaningless. In fact, the Torah accepts that astrology is valid and accurate, and some believe it is an essential aid in Jewish observance.

According to the Talmud (Shabbat 156a), the Jewish oral tradition, when God tells Abraham to go out and look at the stars, Abraham saw that according to the astrological formations, he was fated not to have children. God then told him that he would change Abraham’s fate by moving Jupiter from the east to the west, and make his offspring “as numerous as the very stars in which you see you’ll have no children”.

The Talmud tells several more stories of how certain Jews were fated to die by astrological influence, but merit and good deeds changed their fate. At one point, a Talmud teaching (Moed Katan 28a) states unequivocally that “children and sustenance depend not on merit but [rather on] astrology”.

Nonetheless, the Talmud also warns against consulting with astrologers (Pesachim 113b). This seeming contradiction is explained in Midrash Raba, a collection of fables from ancient Jewish sages."

http://www.breakingisraelnews.com/5...e-surprised-jewish-world/#AvzxvHIIQzkF6OB4.99

Some Messianic Jews believe "oral Torah" (Talmud) is of GOD via Rabbinic Judaism. The revised SOP does not discourage MJs from the study or practice of "halacha" ...

We believe:
  • Yeshua instructed us to ‘Follow Me’, therefore we leave it to each individual to practice Torah (halacha) in a way that he/she believes Yeshua did.
This always seems to be a sticking point in this MJ forum and why some Messianics retain the word "Christian" in their Messianic title (e.g. Judaic Chrstian, Messianic Jewish Christian) as they interpret Messianic Judaism to include elements of Jewish Mysticism found in the Talmud's oral law.

To give CherubRam the benefit of doubt we have to assume that his #1 statement is in part based on the beliefs of some MJs that study the "halacha" (oral laws of the Tadmud). During discussions on the language of the revised SOP we never arrived at any agreement that the study and application of the oral law (halacha) of the Talmud within Messianic Judaism is NOT OK?

Therefore, it would seem CherubRam's initial #1 post is left up to MJs and MGs to interpret according to their individual beliefs with respect to how they define Messianic Judaism.
 
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AbbaLove

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This makes about the fourth time I have had to say that I do not believe or practice Astrology.
WE get that, but what we don't get is whether or not the intention of your thread and initial (#1) post was in a round-about way inquiring if either MJs or MGs believe that astrology is condoned within the scope of the SOP of this Messianic Judaism forum? Otherwise, WHY would you even make such a bizarre introductory statement (initial #1 post) being that you "do not believe or practice Astrology" and have no reason to believe that members of this forum believe or practice astrology.

No one here ever accused you of practicing astrology? Rather your initial post accused Enoch, Job, Abram, and Joseph of believing/practicing astrology which MJs and MGs were repulsed and perceived as being an insult.

So, again where do you come off making such a statement such as: "The Pyramids have the same same astrological signs from Joseph." You STILL refuse to give a specific link for the source for such a statement. A statement leading us to believe that's your belief. Is the purpose of your thread just to point out what you imagine might possibly be a belief within Messianic Judaism? Otherwise, WHY make such an outlandish statement (#1 post) in this Messianic Judaism forum? What Messianic Judaism evidence/link do you have to put forth supporting such an MJ belief apparently contrived by you: "The Pyramids have the same astrological signs from Joseph."
 
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