A Rapture Causes the Great Tribulation

[Douggg]

What? You are saying that my Lord JESUS is angel? Your devilish opinion is good for nothing, what you wrote is doctrine of the demons you have learned from the followers of the Dragon and are preaching here as they they preach. As I already have prior said, you know not JESUS, neither Michael.
My Lord JESUS is GOD, not an angel, understand? He is the Word made flesh, understand? The Word is GOD, self-executing/ executable, and He was made flesh around 2000 years ago, and chose for Himself the name of JESUS.

All people here know(except you) that Revelation 1:1 says: - The Revelation of JESUS Christ, which GOD (the Father) gave unto Him(around 60 years after His ascension), to shew unto His servants things which must shortly come to pass;
and JESUS sent and signified it BY His ANGEL unto His servant John(not by He Himself as is being said by the spirit of Genesis 3:1. Your devilish opinion is good for nothing, your are a sower of tares)

You just wrote in you reply: Revelation 22:16 - I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
And you came here to say my Lord JESUS is the angel He own have sent to testify of these things of Apocalypse in the churches??? What you say is doctrine of demons you have learned from the followers of the Dragon and are preaching and sowing tares as such as they do. As I already have prior said, you know not JESUS, neither Michael.

My Lord JESUS said: Unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath. Cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth-Matthew 25:29-30.

That is what GOD the Father gave unto my Lord JESUS to shew unto His servants. By your own words, JESUS did not show this unto you, so your interpretations are a stumbling block, and according Genesis 3.1.

Angel means messenger.

 

[Douggg]

You just wrote in you reply: Revelation 22:16 - I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
And you came here to say my Lord JESUS is the angel

The Holy Spirit testifies of Jesus to the churches.

 

[oikonomia]

The church did not give birth to Jesus. It is the reverse. Jesus built the church.

The church "gives birth" to the corporate group of overcomers in the same way Israel "gave birth" to Gideon's small victorious army of a minority 300.

The woman of universal light that gives birth to the man-child has three features:

1.) The major part of her body is clothed with the sun signifying the new covenant believers.

2.) The moon underneath her feet signifying the old covenant believers. The moon reflects the light
of the sun as the Law reflects the perfect Person of Christ. And that this reflection is beneath her feet does
not mean disrespect but subjection. The woman is not under the law but has the law in subjection as she stands in grace.

3.) The crown of 12 stars around her head signify the patriarchs before the giving of the law. They are exalted as her crown - hereos
of faith as in Hebrews 11.

So this woman represents ALL of God's saints on earth through history as the vision of Joseph revealed God's
people on earth in Genesis. The father of Joseph being the sun, the mother of joseph being the moon and the brothers
of Joseph being the eleven stars.

This vision of universally bright woman in Revelation 12 therefore is not Mary, nor just Israel, nor just the new testament church excluding OT saints. Rather she is the totality of God's believers on earth through history. And she will eventually be the same woman who is in eternity the wife of the Lamb - New Jerusalem.

In the next post I offer explanation about the child that the universal bright woman gives birth to.

 

[oikonomia]

First, man-child is a singular term, denoting or referring to just one person, not to a group of persons.

I agree that "man-child" is a singular term. However "the Christ" in 1 Cor. 12:12 is also referring to one person - the church.

For even as the body is one and has many members, yet all the members of the body, being many, are one body, so also is the Christ. (1 Cor. 12:12)

Remember that when Saul of Tarsus presecuted the corporate church Jesus spoke to him- "Saul, Saul, why do you persecute Me?" {Acts 9:4) That was the great life long lesson Paul learned. The church was Christ that divine "Me." To persecute the church was to oppose the singular Person - Christ.

You are saying that. You need to meditate more deeply in the Word of GOD, the Word is GOD, understand? The Scriptures you are mentioning has nothing to do with sins, but with a TERRIBLE WAR against the Devil and his hosts of messengers.

The "they" have overcome Satan firstly by the blood of the Lamb. This means redemption from sin.
Rather than go over to another chapter about frog like demons we should stay with Rev. 12 for the better understanding of the warfare
in chapter 12.

They is a CORPORATE Christ who is composed of those who have overcome accusation, slander, blame, etc. from the Devil.
They FIRST overcome not on their OWN merit, but based on the redemptive work of the slain Lamb - the Son of God.

THEY overcame because of Christ's redemption and because they proclaim the truth and they loved Christ thier victory more
than they loved their self life. This is what Jesus said - to follow Him we must deny ourself and take Him and His way instead.

In other words these overcomers are NORMAL victorious believers who are "more that canquerors" all because of the grace of Jesus Christ.

The War is against three UNCLEAN spirits like frogs which come out of the mouth of the Dragon, and out of the mouth of the Beast of sea, and out of the mouth of the false prophet(extensive to the false preachers of the Word of GOD, even ministers of Satan-2Corinthians 11:13-15).

The unclean spirits are coming related to the armies ON EARTH.
The warfare which has Michael and his good angels drive Satan out is in HEAVEN.

At its end there is no more place for him to occasionally appear before God as in the book of Job only to ACCUSE , ACCUSE, ACCUSE.

In spite of most of God's people being below the normal victorious standard, a minority remnant are presented redeemed and otherwise blameless (1 Thess. 5:23).

And the God of peace Himself sanctify you wholly, and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. {1 Thess. 5:23)

These are like GIdeon's small army of 300 in the book of Judges. For the sake of the entire body they push through and win the spiritual warfare.

The angels are ministering spirits who SERVE the human saints. (Heb. 1:14) So unerstandably when the corporate "They" -"them" - "brothers" become mature in victory the serving angels do their part.

You must know that even as Christ is to shepherd the nations with strong iron rod authority SO ALSO has He ordained
that overcoming saints do so WITH Him.

Compare:

Rev. 19:15 - He will shepherd them with an iron rod; and He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty.

Rev. 2:26,27 - And he who overcomes and he who keeps My works until the end, to him I will give authority over the nations;
And he will shepherd them with an iron rod, as vessels of pottery are broken in pieces, as I also have received from My Father;

Rev. 12:5 - And she brought forth a son, a man-child, who is to shepherd all the nations with an iron rod; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne.

 

[oikonomia]

I made a very bad typo.

Satan accuses the redeemed human saints to God day and night.

"The accuser of our brothers " (Rev. 12:10) should mean redeemed former sinning human brothers.
Man and not angels need the blood of the Lamb.

If I am wrong show me any passage of the Bible saying angels and humans are BROTHERS.

 

[oikonomia]

I have yet to see a Greek word for RAPTURE and if you have found it , would be pleased to evaluate it ?

dan p

Dan, we also do not see a Greek word for "Trinity."

A new culture gives rise to new words. A culture of Christians realizing that God is Father and God is the Son and God is the Holy Spirit
gave rise to the employing of a word not found in Greek - Triune or Trrinity.

There is nothing basically wrong with this if the truth of the invented word can be validated by Scripture.
The truth of being "caught up" to God and His throne in joyful exuberance can be verified in Revelation 12.
So I submit "Rapture" is a suitable if not perfect application word for this event.

Do you object to the frequent use of the word "Trinity" because no such Greek word is in the NT?

Attacks against the nature of Christ, I believe, gave rise to some defending term. (John 1:1,14)

 

[oikonomia]

The great tribulation begins when the abomination of desolation is setup on the temple mount (Matthew 24:15-21). Not because of Satan's desperation.

But the idol is set up by the beasts - Antichrist and his false prophet. And they arise BECAUSE Satan is driven down and has only a short time to do his worst.

Grasp the sequence.

And they did not prevail, neither was their place found any longer in heaven.
And the great dragon was cast down, the ancient serpent, he who is called the Devil and Satan, he who deceives the whole inhabited earth; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast down with him. ( Rev. 12:8,9)


Therefore be glad, O heavens and those who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea because the devil has come down to you and has great rage, knowing that he has only a short time.
And when the dragon saw that he was cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who brought forth the man-child. (vs. 12,13)

And the dragon became angry with the woman and went away to make war with the rest of her seed, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus. And he stood on the sand of the sea.

And I saw a beast coming up out of the sea, having ten horns and seven heads, and on his horns ten diadems, and on his heads names of blasphemy.

And the beast which I saw was like a leopard, and his feet like those of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion. And the dragon gave him his power and his throne and great authority. And one of his heads was as it were slain to death, and his death stroke was healed. And the whole earth marveled after the beast. (Rev. 13:1-3)

When will the abomination of desolation setup be ? According to Daniel 12:12, 1335 days before Jesus returns.

Will Satan be cast down to earth 1335 days before Jesus returns ? No, Satan's desperation begins when will be cast down to earth, with a time/times/half time left. The great tribulation will have already started.

Though Satan cast down to earth having great wrath will make the great tribulation worse, of course.

The extra days, I think, has to do with time to cleanse the temple. The 1,260 days is the length of the great tribulation.

I have to re-study the 1,335 days. However, the sequence of Rev. 12,13 is clear to me.

The man-child is raptured.
The woman left on earth flees for protection for 1,260 days.

Because man-child is raptered the serving angels do their part to drive
they accusing Satan down permenantly to the earth - a further strategic limitation of his sphere of activity

This is reason to rejoice to those raptured to heaven. This is however reason for WOE to "the rest of her seed" left on
earth to pass through the great tribulation of 1,260 days or 42 months (Rev. 13:5) That is the then Hebrew accounting of months.

 

[Douggg]

I have to re-study the 1,335 days. However, the sequence of Rev. 12,13 is clear to me.

Here is a timeline chart I made back in 2020 that has all of the timeframes on it.

Just follow the red line beginning in the upper left corner to the lower right corner. The scriptural references are noted for each event.

 

[Oseas]

Angel means messenger.

The fight is not against the obvious. Now, what my Lord JESUS says to the reapers is: "Gather you together first the tares", understand?

 

[Oseas]

The Holy Spirit testifies of Jesus to the churches.

But only and only what he received from JESUS, that is the Truth-John 16:12-15, not what you are preaching according Genesis 3:1.

 

[oikonomia]

Here is a timeline chart I made back in 2020 that has all of the timeframes on it.

Just follow the red line beginning in the upper left corner to the lower right corner. The scriptural references are noted for each event.

View attachment 340308

Thankyou for the chart. The Recovery Version Bible has a similar timeline chart that I have trusted for a long time.

But putting time slightly aside, I mean leaving some time spans ASIDE for a moment, my OP is about this:

We should not underestimate how the churches obedience, growth, and strategic gaining of divine life MUST
be the cause of things unfolding.

Take the four horsemen in Revelation 5. All the contraversy is about the identity of the FIRST horse and its rider.
Some say this is Christ. Others say this is Antichrist.
I believe it is the preaching of the gospel.

"The gospel has been crowned with “the glory of Christ” (2 Cor. 4:4, Gk.), and it is called the gospel of the glory of Christ. The gospel we preach is the gospel crowned with the glory of Christ. We not only preach the gospel of grace, but also the gospel of glory.

Like a four horse race out in front John see the rider in white crowned with a bow in his hand. Nothing is mentioned
about the arrows. This is because the arrow has already been shot into the Devil. And now the gospel of victory and peace is
proclaimed throughout the earth. You know the gospel is crowned with glory." W.L.

"Immediately after Christ’s ascension, these four things—the gospel, war, famine, and death—began to run like riders on four horses and will continue until Christ comes back. Beginning with the first century, the gospel has been spreading throughout all these twenty centuries." W.L.

"The principle here is that the riders on the four horses are not persons but personified things. The rider on the second horse is war, the rider on the third is famine, and the rider on the fourth is death. None of these are persons but rather are personified things. Following this principle, the rider of the first horse must also be a personified thing. Therefore, the rider can be neither Christ nor Antichrist. According to the principle, this rider must also be a personification. After much consideration, we have seen that this rider must be the preaching of the gospel." W.L.

 

[Oseas]

I agree that "man-child" is a singular term. However "the Christ" in 1 Cor. 12:12 is also referring to one person - the church.
For even as the body is one and has many members, yet all the members of the body, being many, are one body, so also is the Christ. (1 Cor. 12:12)
Remember that when Saul of Tarsus presecuted the corporate church Jesus spoke to him- "Saul, Saul, why do you persecute Me?" {Acts 9:4) That was the great life long lesson Paul learned. The church was Christ that divine "Me." To persecute the church was to oppose the singular Person - Christ.

What you are sowing is tares and you strive to transform your false interpretations-Genesis 3:1- as if they were true. What matters and prevails is what GOD gave to JESUS to show unto His servants and He sent and signified it by Michael unto His servant John, it is: the Church is a woman clothed with the Greater Light, and the Lesser Light being under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars. What you are sowing is tares and you strive to transform your false interpretation-Genesis 3:1- as if it were true.

The "they" have overcome Satan firstly by the blood of the Lamb. This means redemption from sin.
Rather than go over to another chapter about frog like demons we should stay with Rev. 12 for the better understanding of the warfare
in chapter 12.

They is a CORPORATE Christ who is composed of those who have overcome accusation, slander, blame, etc. from the Devil.
They FIRST overcome not on their OWN merit, but based on the redemptive work of the slain Lamb - the Son of God.

THEY overcame because of Christ's redemption and because they proclaim the truth and they loved Christ thier victory more
than they loved their self life. This is what Jesus said - to follow Him we must deny ourself and take Him and His way instead.

In other words these overcomers are NORMAL victorious believers who are "more that canquerors" all because of the grace of Jesus Christ.

According to the false interpretations you have exposed here among many brothers in Crhist, you are working for the red Dragon.

The unclean spirits are coming related to the armies ON EARTH.
The warfare which has Michael and his good angels drive Satan out is in HEAVEN.

At its end there is no more place for him to occasionally appear before God as in the book of Job only to ACCUSE , ACCUSE, ACCUSE.

In spite of most of God's people being below the normal victorious standard, a minority remnant are presented redeemed and otherwise blameless (1 Thess. 5:23).

And the God of peace Himself sanctify you wholly, and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. {1 Thess. 5:23)

These are like GIdeon's small army of 300 in the book of Judges. For the sake of the entire body they push through and win the spiritual warfare.

The angels are ministering spirits who SERVE the human saints. (Heb. 1:14) So unerstandably when the corporate "They" -"them" - "brothers" become mature in victory the serving angels do their part.

You must know that even as Christ is to shepherd the nations with strong iron rod authority SO ALSO has He ordained
that overcoming saints do so WITH Him.

Compare:

Rev. 19:15 - He will shepherd them with an iron rod; and He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty.

Rev. 2:26,27 - And he who overcomes and he who keeps My works until the end, to him I will give authority over the nations;
And he will shepherd them with an iron rod, as vessels of pottery are broken in pieces, as I also have received from My Father;

Rev. 12:5 - And she brought forth a son, a man-child, who is to shepherd all the nations with an iron rod; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne.

Your thinking is from a human perspective, a stumblingblock-Genesis 3:1-, not from GOD's perspective-Matthew 16:23. By the way, the whole world will see now,veven now, from now on, the fury of the WRATH of God the Almighty-JESUS. Revelation 6:16-17, take a look.

The Father loves the Son, and has given all things into His hand. He that believes on the Son has everlasting life: and he that believes not the Son shall not see life; but the WRATH of God abides on him.

Similarity between passing by the Red Sea and by the Red Dragon

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ - PUT THIS IN YOUR MIND ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ - THE RED SEA AND THE RED DRAGON ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I believe you know that the Hebrews had to cross the Red Sea, and walk through a desert, walk until they got to the Promised Land after 40 years of...

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[Oseas]

I made a very bad typo.
Satan accuses the redeemed human saints to God day and night.

"The accuser of our brothers " (Rev. 12:10) should mean redeemed former sinning human brothers.
Man and not angels need the blood of the Lamb.
If I am wrong show me any passage of the Bible saying angels and humans are BROTHERS.

No surprise your very bad typo. In fact, what you are sowing is tares and you strive to transform your false interpretations-Genesis 3:1- as if they were true. What matters and prevails is what JESUS said in Luke 20:35-36.
35 - They which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world...,that is the next world, the Kingdom of GOD - Revelation 11:15-18 - yeah, the believers which shall be accounted WORTHY exclusively, will be equal unto the angels.

Celebration of the Lamb's marriage? ONLY AFTER THE JUDGMENT OF BABYLON

According to GOD's Word, what needs to happen first? Exactly what is written in Revelation 18: 1 to 5, i.e. the Judgment of the Great harlot, as follows: 1 And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory. (Note: This...

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[oikonomia]

No surprise your very bad typo.

I have an eye infection which is getting better now.
I have been taking many eye drops for weeks and many anti-viral pills. God knows this is true.

In fact, what you are sowing is tares and you strive to transform your false interpretations-Genesis 3:1- as if they were true. What matters and prevails is what JESUS said in Luke 20:35-36.

I am not advocating false, pretend believers amidst TRUE believers. The "tares for wheat" criticism I'll ignore for more serious
discussion of good or bad interpretations of Revelation chapter 12.

First - Nothing I wrote damages the importance of Genesis 3:1.

Gen. 3:1 -
Now the serpent was more crafty than any other animal of the field that Jehovah God had made. And he said to the woman, Did God really say, You shall not eat of any tree of the garden? (Gen. 3:1)

1,) I believe the historical validity of the passage if you do not.

2.) Nothing I said detracts fromthe subtle, slanderious, deceiving nature of Satan even if took Gen. 3:1 as more mythic.

3.) I believe early human history is nor rooted in the natural but in the supernatural. Therefore for me to regard
Genesis 3:1 as non-literal involves me, I think, in MORE problems rather than less.

4.) When Jesus says the Devil was a murderer (the "father" of the enemies of Christ) from the beginning, it arges for Jesus
taking the Genesis stories as history. If it is good enough for Jesus, whose integrity is beyond my questioning, it is
good enough for me.

John 8:44 - You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks the lie, he speaks it out of his own possessions; for he is a liar and the father of it.


So nothing I wrote does harm to Genesis and Jesus's words about Satan the Devil.

Then you caution that I somehow undercut Luke 20:35-36.

Luke 20:35-36 - But those who are counted worthy to obtain that age and the resurrection from the dead neither marry nor are given in marriage; For neither can they die anymore, for they are equal to angels, and they are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.

I do not understand how you think anything I explained contradicts Luke20:35-36. But I will take a guess.

"Those who are counted worthy to obtain to this age" speaks of the overcoming Christ believers to co-reign with
Christ in the millennium.

Unless you think they are to reign over each other, there has to be some people in that age over whom they reign.
These are the nations whom God deems worthy to be transferred from this age into the millennial kingdom age.

Psalm 2:5,6 -
Then He will speak to them in His anger, And in His burning wrath He will terrify them:
But I have installed My King Upon Zion, My holy mountain.

Verses 8,9 -
Ask of Me, And I will give the nations as Your inheritance And the limits of the earth as Your possession.
You will break them with an iron rod; You will shatter them like a potter’s vessel.

This prophecy shows Jesus Christ God's Son and the world's KIng shepherding over the nations existing on earth
at that time. Doesn't it ?

This prophecy shows then "those counted worthy to obtain that age" may be as unmarried angels- true.
But the ones over whom Christ reigns must still be unworthy to be left alone. Otherwise Jesus would not
be shepherding them with strong kingdom power

Ask of Me, / And I will give the nations as Your inheritance / And the limits of the earth as Your possession.
You will break them with an iron rod; / You will shatter them like a potter’s vessel.

So the millennial kingdom has the worthy Christ the Son as shepherd KIng AND
nations overwhom He will reign.

Furthermore, accompanying Christ is those rewarded to reign with Him, join Him, and do with Him what He does. Am I right?

Revelation 2:26,27 -
And he who overcomes and he who keeps My works until the end, to him I will give authority over the nations;
And he will shepherd them with an iron rod, as vessels of pottery are broken in pieces, as I also have received from My Father;

Your complaint from Luke 20:35-36 evaporates into nothing my friend.

The age of the Son of God reigning over the nations of the earth as His inheritance stands.
That He will reward certain of His people who "overcomes" worthy to reign with Him stands EVEN IF they not marry or have kids
anymore like typical people in this age.

 

[oikonomia]

What you are sowing is tares and you strive to transform your false interpretations-Genesis 3:1- as if they were true. What matters and prevails is what GOD gave to JESUS to show unto His servants and He sent and signified it by Michael unto His servant John, it is: the Church is a woman clothed with the Greater Light, and the Lesser Light being under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars. What you are sowing is tares and you strive to transform your false interpretation-Genesis 3:1- as if it were true.

You have in Revelation 12 a women and a man-child that she delivers.
The man-child that is within her must be PART of her. That is from one standpoint when we see the women of
light we also see somewhere within her a baby ready to be delivered.

So the from one angle the stronger man-child and the mother women are ONE. Isn't this true.

Satan hates both the woman AND the child she is travailing to bring forth.
But he is especially concerned about the man-child MORE than the mother women.

Revelation 12:2-4
And she was with child, and she cried out, travailing in birth and being in pain to bring forth.
And another sign was seen in heaven; and behold, there was a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads seven diadems. . . . And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to bring forth, so that when she brings forth he might devour her child.

The understanding that this is a CORPORATE group - the man-child is strengthened by the fact of the plural pronouns of "they" and "their" and
"them".

I don't think this does damage to Genesis saying Christ is the prophesed victororious seed of the woman - the virgin born Savior who
crushed the head of the serpent.

It is New Testament fact that this overcoming Chirst has become the life giving Spirit to cause Him to be formed in His people.

First Cor. 15:45b -
the last Adam became a life-giving Spirit.

Galatians4:19 -
My children, with whom I travail again in birth until Christ is formed in you,

It is also a fact that the serpent crushing Jesus must cause the church to collective also crush the head of this serpent.

Romans 16:20 -
Now the God of peace will crush Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus be with you.

It is also a fact that if the entire universal church does not do this at first, a remnant of those who overcome by this indwelling
VIctor Christ will mature to fight the spiritual warfare.

Does this undercut Genesis 3:1 in any way? No.
Does this detract from there being a new testament church with great light in Christ? No.

So I do not understand what you are objecting to.

Throughout the centries God's people have been travailing that some among us would be stronger to
prevail in spiritual warfare.


Compare Revelation 12:2 with many OT passages:
And she was with child, and she cried out, travailing in birth and being in pain to bring forth.

Isaiah 26:17-18
Jeremiah 6:24; 13:21; 30:6
Micah 4:9-10; 5:3

And do not forget the New Testament example of the apostle suffering in prayers, petitions, and labors
to cause Christ to be form in the believers - Galatians 4:19.

Please remember that Christ also is one with us as a man in incarnation- a Jew, a person of God's people, and the Head of
the Body the church.

Christ was prayed for earnestly to come by OT Jews.
The gospel of Luke shows goidly Jewish men and women anticipating prayerfull His coming forth.

So Christ is the real original Overomer. And He is the life giving Spirit now causing those in whom He lives to overcome.

AND- - if by the time of His second coming the entiire universal church has not matured to be victors at least
a remnant of those who overcome will. They are not super spiritual. They are NORMAL recipients of His grace.

They are not an elite who are ABOVE the standard. They are a minority who rise TO the expected standard. (Luke 17:10)

They are not APART from the church anymore than GIdeon's small army of 300 were apart from the larger nation of Israel.

They are not OTHER than the church. They are escapees from the typical substandard defeat of degradation of the Religianity. (2 Tim. 2:21)

They are not OTHER than Jesus Christ. Rather the original Satan crushing Overcomer Christ has been wrought and worked into
their being.

They will have only done what was EXPECTED of normal servants of God - be victorious over the flesh, the world, the self love, and the
Devil.

 

[oikonomia]

Oseas -

Explain how what I wrote makes the marriage of the Lamb and the judgment of Babylon (Rev. 17) out of sequence.

I don't understand why a pre-great tribulation of some overcomers somehow puts out of sequence
the marriage of the Lamb in Revelation 19 out of sequence with the destruction of religious Babylon.


Revelation 19 is clear the the marriage dinner of the Lamb in Heaven follows their rejoicing
that religious Babylon has been destroyed.


Revelation 19:1-3 -
After these things I heard as it were a loud voice of a great multitude in heaven, saying, Hallelujah! The salvation and the glory and the power are of our God.
For true and righteous are His judgments; for He has judged the great harlot who corrupted the earth with her fornication, and He avenged the blood of His slaves at her hand.
And a second time they said, Hallelujah! And her smoke goes up forever and ever.

Revelation 19:6,7 -
And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude and like the sound of many waters and like the sound of mighty thunders, saying, Hallelujah! For the Lord our God the Almighty reigns.
Let us rejoice and exult, and let us give the glory to Him, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready.

 

[oikonomia]

Your thinking is from a human perspective, a stumblingblock-Genesis 3:1-, not from GOD's perspective-Matthew 16:23. By the way, the whole world will see now,veven now, from now on, the fury of the WRATH of God the Almighty-JESUS. Revelation 6:16-17, take a look.

I am thinking from a God / human perspective as I should.

Prophecy is of God. Humans are the recipients of prophecy especialy humans brought into the Body of His redeemed people.
What then is your problem?

What Jesus is is for the benefit of believers.
God desires to work His Son's life into those who receive Him.
How does that deflate in any way God's wrath against His enemies ? ?

How in the world does this passage nullify what I explained of ANYTHING ??

Rev. 6:16,17
And they say to the mountains and to the rocks, Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits upon the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb; For the great day of Their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?

The Father loves the Son, and has given all things into His hand. He that believes on the Son has everlasting life: and he that believes not the Son shall not see life; but the WRATH of God abides on him.

Nothing I explained argues against the Father loving the Son and giving all things into His hands.

What did I write that contradicts that the wrath of God abides on the unbelievers of Christ God's Son?

Let me guess. You think perhaps people being reigned over in the millennium who are not
Christians contradicts John chapter 3?

1.) The dispensation of the millennial kingdom is different from the dispensation of the church age.

2.) Clearly some nations will be transferred from the church age into the millennial kingdom age a "sheep".

3.) These sheep did not know that their good deeds to the persecuted people of God were actually
merciful deeds done to Him.

Matt. 25:40 -
And the King will answer and say to them, Truly I say to you, Inasmuch as you have done it to one of these, the least of My brothers, you have done it to Me.

4.) These sparred nations enter into the millennial kingdom -

Verse 34 =
Then the King will say to those on His right hand, Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

5.) Christ does not say "Your Father" as if they are born again but only "MY Father".

6.) However the son of God from the previous age shine in that kingdom time in THEIR Father's kingdom.

Matthew 13:43 -
Then the righteous will shine forth like the sun in the kingdom of their Father.


In your next few posts to me explain how sons of God will have no one to reign over except each other in
the millennium.

Or give me a better argument for the weak ones offered.
And please do not attempt to send me off to discuss it with some OTHER website.

 

[Laodicean60]

I've heard some teaching that 'He' is the Holy Spirit who indwells all believers. Once raptured or taken away the lawless one will have no opposition and the 7 or 3.5-year clock starts.

2Th 2:7 NKJV
For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He[fn] who now restrains will do so until He[fn] is taken out of the way.

 

[oikonomia]

I've heard some teaching that 'He' is the Holy Spirit who indwells all believers. Once raptured or taken away the lawless one will have no opposition and the 7 or 3.5-year clock starts.

2Th 2:7 NKJV
For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He[fn] who now restrains will do so until He[fn] is taken out of the way.

I know some would say the "he" who is taken out of the way is the Holy Spirit.

I don't think this is correct for these reasons:

When the Lord says TWO will be doing daily tasks and one is taken and one is left, I think He means TWO believers. (Matt. 24:40-42)

When the vigilant believer who has the Holy Spirit is raptured I see NO REASON when the non-vigilant
believer should have the Holy Spirit TAKEN from him or her.

The Holy Spirit is to be with the believers FOREVER. He is not on loan but a perminent everlasting GIFT.

John 16:14 -
And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Comforter, that He may be with you forever,

SO the Christians who are left to pass through the great tribulation time STILL have the Holy Spirit indwelling them.
The early rapture is based on the Spirit being in the soul's personality because of watching, vigilance, astute atteention to
His indwelling. Some with the Holy Spirit will have learned to live daily under His influence and some with the Holy Spirit
will be still immature. This is the difference in Matthew 24:40-42 with each pair of TWO.

Furthermore, I think the Holy Spirit being WITH the left Christians to strengthen them to endure with longsuffering
under Antichrist's reign is indicated by this -

Revelation 14:12,13 -
Here is the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.
And I heard a voice out of heaven, saying, Write, Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on. Yes, says the Spirit, that they may rest from their labors; for their works follow with them.

You see the Holy Spirit saying "that they may rest from their labors" implies He is co-laboring, co-supporting, co-enduring with them
as He would always be expected of Christians in trial.

Give this some thought.
What do you think about this?

 

[Laodicean60]

Holy Spirit TAKEN from him or her.

I'm saying the believer is taken away or raptured.