A New Interpretation of Genesis

[dougangel]

That is a lot of fun, certainly. Such circular reasoning always makes me smile.

It looks like to me your taking a form of Godliness but denying where it comes from.
2 Timothy 3
New International Version (NIV)

3 But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. 2 People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, 4 treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God— 5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with such people.

 

[TLK Valentine]

You equate that to surrender ? I find you confused.

You say whatever you need to in order to save face; I won't judge you for it.

Your in error. I asked you that in post# 190
Also we could get into a discussion about whether modern industrial man is going to leave the planet in a better shape than they found it?

We could, but I'm not talking about the entire human race -- I can only find meaning in my own life; I leave it to others to find the meaning in theirs.

Well, you seem to be swinging to and from agnosticism to atheism. Your making philosophical truth claims which life forces us to do. Which has been one of my points that you don't seemed to picked up on.

Probably because you haven't made any point. You're just bewildered that someone besides yourself can make a "truth claim."

I tried to get you to explain your truth claim.
That is "if life is temporary, as you say, what is the meaning of life or whats your answer?

And I gave you my answer.

Why would I leave my spiritual Relationship with Jesus for what you have said ?

And I'm curious as to why you would think I would ask you to abandon your spiritual relationship with Jesus.... have I asked you to do this... ever?

that's true

Truth is sometimes unfortunate.

hmm you don't think I haven't been looking at peoples truth claims. I've got to be honest. I don't find you a very wise person.

As long as we're being honest, I think you're going to great lengths to make yourself sound wise... and in the spirit of honesty, I've got to tell you, it's not working.

well your making truth claims that are opposite to Jesus.

That would indicate that I believe things that Jesus did not... I can only imagine the sheltered life that would lead one to find that at all surprising.

Either your right or he's right.

And you have the opportunity to choose whom -- isn't that great?

I gave you a chance to explain why I would leave his truth claims for yours. And quite frankly I'm unimpressed. I don't find fault with Jesus but I find fault and error with you.

And I you -- I never once asked you to abandon anything... when did I ever ask you to?

You're a very confused soul, Doug.... you seem to think I'm somehow out to get you or deconvert you... I'm sorry that you got so little out of this discussion, but then again, one tends to get out what one puts in.

well that's your opinion. I wonder how you would go if I tested you on Mark ?

Why would you want to test me? And more importantly, why would I want to submit myself to any such test?

 

[Hoghead1]

That's not the way it worked historically, Razzle. The argument was that you were not God, not the Judge, and so could not determine who the elect or the reprobate were. To try and do so was considered a major heresy.

 

[razzelflabben]

That's not the way it worked historically, Razzle. The argument was that you were not God, not the Judge, and so could not determine who the elect or the reprobate were. To try and do so was considered a major heresy.

??????? We know the measure and we know what sin is, that is enough to know who is and is not living in the power of the HS that is part of the Believers daily walk....the rest of this is beyond my understanding of what the holy heck you are talking about....

 

[Hoghead1]

What I am talking about, Razzle, is whether or not you or I or anyone can know who the elect and the reprobate are. What I am saying is that traditionally it was strongly argued that we could not know. Calvin, for example, made a major point of stressing that. He often attacked the "pillars of the Church," saying God had enough on them to send them to Hell immediately. See, they may look good, but really aren't anywhere near what they appear. Also, Calvin and other Reformers stressed how we hide many of our sins from ourselves, thinking we are far better off than we are. The elect are only lucky reprobate. Later Reformers talked about "signs" of election. If you were wealthy, that could well be a sign form God that you were favored and so were among the elect. Of course, you have the right to go with this any way you want. I'm just saying that traditionally it is considered blasphemy to say you knew who the elect and reprobate really are.

 

[joshua 1 9]

If Adam and Eve really were the first two humans, did their children have to “procreate?”

Luke gives us the genealogy from Adam to Jesus. These are all real people and for many of them we can read a lot of details about their life. For example there is a lot in the Bible about Cain, and Noah, and Abraham and David. As well as many of the other people we find in the genealogy like Joseph.

Luke 3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was [the son] of Heli,

Luke 3:24 Which was [the son] of Matthat, which was [the son] of Levi, which was [the son] of Melchi, which was [the son] of Janna, which was [the son] of Joseph,

Luke 3:25 Which was [the son] of Mattathias, which was [the son] of Amos, which was [the son] of Naum, which was [the son] of Esli, which was [the son] of Nagge,

Luke 3:26 Which was [the son] of Maath, which was [the son] of Mattathias, which was [the son] of Semei, which was [the son] of Joseph, which was [the son] of Juda,

Luke 3:27 Which was [the son] of Joanna, which was [the son] of Rhesa, which was [the son] of Zorobabel, which was [the son] of Salathiel, which was [the son] of Neri,

Luke 3:28 Which was [the son] of Melchi, which was [the son] of Addi, which was [the son] of Cosam, which was [the son] of Elmodam, which was [the son] of Er,

Luke 3:29 Which was [the son] of Jose, which was [the son] of Eliezer, which was [the son] of Jorim, which was [the son] of Matthat, which was [the son] of Levi,

Luke 3:30 Which was [the son] of Simeon, which was [the son] of Juda, which was [the son] of Joseph, which was [the son] of Jonan, which was [the son] of Eliakim,

Luke 3:31 Which was [the son] of Melea, which was [the son] of Menan, which was [the son] of Mattatha, which was [the son] of Nathan, which was [the son] of David,

Luke 3:32 Which was [the son] of Jesse, which was [the son] of Obed, which was [the son] of Booz, which was [the son] of Salmon, which was [the son] of Naasson,

Luke 3:33 Which was [the son] of Aminadab, which was [the son] of Aram, which was [the son] of Esrom, which was [the son] of Phares, which was [the son] of Juda,

Luke 3:34 Which was [the son] of Jacob, which was [the son] of Isaac, which was [the son] of Abraham, which was [the son] of Thara, which was [the son] of Nachor,

Luke 3:35 Which was [the son] of Saruch, which was [the son] of Ragau, which was [the son] of Phalec, which was [the son] of Heber, which was [the son] of Sala,

Luke 3:36 Which was [the son] of Cainan, which was [the son] of Arphaxad, which was [the son] of Sem, which was [the son] of Noe, which was [the son] of Lamech,

Luke 3:37 Which was [the son] of Mathusala, which was [the son] of Enoch, which was [the son] of Jared, which was [the son] of Maleleel, which was [the son] of Cainan,

Luke 3:38 Which was [the son] of Enos, which was [the son] of Seth, which was [the son] of Adam, which was [the son] of God.

 

[joshua 1 9]

millions of them have never heard of Jesus Christ?

There is no one anywhere that has never heard of Jesus Christ. Missionaries go to a great extent to take the Gospel to ALL of the world. This is made very clear in the story of Jim Elliot: an evangelical Christian who was one of five missionaries killed while participating in Operation Auca, an attempt to evangelize the Huaorani people of Ecuador. (wiki) I personally have been to Mindanao. There is no one in Mindanao that has not heard of Jesus Christ.

 

[dougangel]

You say whatever you need to in order to save face; I won't judge you for it.

No honestly, it's the effort to decipher your mind games and illogical statements.


We could, but I'm not talking about the entire human race -- I can only find meaning in my own life; I leave it to others to find the meaning in theirs.

No I meant if your in a industrial society your not going to leave the planet in a better place when you die.


Probably because you haven't made any point. You're just bewildered that someone besides yourself can make a "truth claim."

That's not true. You said Life is temporary. Aren't you supposed to undecided about that ?

And I gave you my answer.
Not a very good one


And I'm curious as to why you would think I would ask you to abandon your spiritual relationship with Jesus.... have I asked you to do this... ever?

Because you have made truth claims. Either he has the truth or you do. I tried to honestly hear your answers.

Truth is sometimes unfortunate.

Hmmm

As long as we're being honest, I think you're going to great lengths to make yourself sound wise... and in the spirit of honesty, I've got to tell you, it's not working.

whatever

That would indicate that I believe things that Jesus did not... I can only imagine the sheltered life that would lead one to find that at all surprising.

So the point is, was Jesus telling the truth or is he the worlds biggest liar? There is no neutral ground.

And you have the opportunity to choose whom -- isn't that great?

The point is there is no neutral ground about that.


And I you -- I never once asked you to abandon anything... when did I ever ask you to?

No, I brought that up or too the table. I'm allowed to aren't I. I asked you what your answer was and I found it very very inferior to what Christ said.

You're a very confused soul, Doug.... you seem to think I'm somehow out to get you or deconvert you... I'm sorry that you got so little out of this discussion, but then again, one tends to get out what one puts in.

If your saying something opposite to what Christ claimed. your are making a Christian judge whether your claims are better than Christ. You don't seem to be able to get your head around that.

Why would you want to test me? And more importantly, why would I want to submit myself to any such test?

I'm just curious. It would be interesting to see how much you understand.

 

[TLK Valentine]

No honestly, it's the effort to decipher your mind games and illogical statements.

Perhaps the reason you're struggling is because I'm not playing any mind games.... if you see mind games, you must be playing them with yourself -- which makes your difficulty something of a bittersweet achievement.

As for "illogical statements," you haven't explained what makes them so illogical..

No I meant if your in a industrial society your not going to leave the planet in a better place when you die.

Well, that's your opinion, and while it has some merit, I choose to focus on my own efforts -- I cannot compensate for what seven billion other humans may do, and I choose not to let that bother me.

My efforts are positive; that's all I or anyone else can do.

That's not true. You said Life is temporary. Aren't you supposed to undecided about that ?

Am I? Says who?

Not a very good one

Works for me; and I don't need anyone else's approval unless I choose to pursue it.

Because you have made truth claims. Either he has the truth or you do. I tried to honestly hear your answers.

Perhaps I'm correct about some things, and He's correct about some things.

For example, I told you that I know I cannot improve the entire world -- so did Jesus.

Mark 14:11 For ye have the poor with you always, and whensoever ye will ye may do them good: but me ye have not always.

Hmmm


whatever

Please tell me you're not just now realizing this...

So the point is, was Jesus telling the truth or is he the worlds biggest liar? There is no neutral ground.

Of course there's a neutral ground! How can you even pretend to know about logic and make such a statement?

Jesus could've been mistaken; you could be mistaken; Jesus could be misquoted; Jesus could be referring to something different; Jesus, you, and even I could be looking at the same issues form different angles...

The point is there is no neutral ground about that.

Well, having seen where your side leads, I'll stick with mine.

No, I brought that up or too the table. I'm allowed to aren't I. I asked you what your answer was and I found it very very inferior to what Christ said.

Which is, as always, your choice to do -- it still doesn't change the fact that I neer once attempted to change your mind.

You, on the other hand, have been continually trying to change mind... with no success, but do keep trying; I find it amusing.

If your saying something opposite to what Christ claimed. your are making a Christian judge whether your claims are better than Christ. You don't seem to be able to get your head around that.

Probably because it's a load of bunk. I don't make anyone do anything. You choose to judge; you choose to act. Don't hang responsibility for your actions on other people.

I'm just curious. It would be interesting to see how much you understand.

Why? Because you're convinced that my understanding would be inferior to your own? Are you seeking validation?

 

[razzelflabben]

What I am talking about, Razzle, is whether or not you or I or anyone can know who the elect and the reprobate are. What I am saying is that traditionally it was strongly argued that we could not know. Calvin, for example, made a major point of stressing that. He often attacked the "pillars of the Church," saying God had enough on them to send them to Hell immediately. See, they may look good, but really aren't anywhere near what they appear. Also, Calvin and other Reformers stressed how we hide many of our sins from ourselves, thinking we are far better off than we are. The elect are only lucky reprobate. Later Reformers talked about "signs" of election. If you were wealthy, that could well be a sign form God that you were favored and so were among the elect. Of course, you have the right to go with this any way you want. I'm just saying that traditionally it is considered blasphemy to say you knew who the elect and reprobate really are.

It sounds like the debate over whether or not we can know ones' heart, which I think I already talked about not being able to know. In fact, scripture says that not everyone who calls Lord Lord or in other words, does things in the name of Christ as true believers. This goes to the heart of the issue, however, scripture also says that we will know them by their Love, iow's where we cannot judge the heart of another, we do have a measure that scripture seems to expect us to use on certain occasions. Kind of a yes and no issue.

 

[Practical-Christianity]

Hey everybody,
I published the full post on why the creation account in Genesis is a polemic.

Find it here: http://practical-christianity.com/creationevolution-part-4-a-new-interpretation-of-genesis/
Stephen

 

[SkyWriting]

Hey everybody,
I published the full post on why the creation account in Genesis is a polemic.

Find it here: http://practical-christianity.com/creationevolution-part-4-a-new-interpretation-of-genesis/
Stephen

I've not read your arguments, but that sounds correct.

 

[PsychoSarah]

There is no one anywhere that has never heard of Jesus Christ. Missionaries go to a great extent to take the Gospel to ALL of the world. This is made very clear in the story of Jim Elliot: an evangelical Christian who was one of five missionaries killed while participating in Operation Auca, an attempt to evangelize the Huaorani people of Ecuador. (wiki) I personally have been to Mindanao. There is no one in Mindanao that has not heard of Jesus Christ.

Rampant generalization with no factual basis.

 

[joshua 1 9]

Rampant generalization with no factual basis.

I am not the one making the claim. You are and so your the one that is guilty of "Rampant generalization with no factual basis". I am simply calling you on the fact that you have nothing to support your claim. Why don't we start with you. Have you ever heard of Jesus Christ? Has any one ever given you a witness of Him? Can you produce testimony from anyone, anywhere in the world that has never received a witness of Jesus Christ? If you have evidence to support your claim then produce it.

 

[Jimmy D]

I am not the one making the claim. You are and so your the one that is guilty of "Rampant generalization with no factual basis". I am simply calling you on the fact that you have nothing to support your claim. Why don't we start with you. Have you ever heard of Jesus Christ? Has any one ever given you a witness of Him? Can you produce testimony from anyone, anywhere in the world that has never received a witness of Jesus Christ? If you have evidence to support your claim then produce it.

Didn't you have this debate in another thread where you were shown that this is an unsubstantiated assertion? Something about uncontacted tribes if I remember correctly.

On the other hand I get terrible deja vu round here sometimes.

 

[Jimmy D]

Hey everybody,
I published the full post on why the creation account in Genesis is a polemic.

Find it here: http://practical-christianity.com/creationevolution-part-4-a-new-interpretation-of-genesis/
Stephen

Hi Stephen, I'd agree with the general gist of your article, it seems like a sensible approach to take.

 

[PsychoSarah]

I am not the one making the claim. You are and so your the one that is guilty of "Rampant generalization with no factual basis". I am simply calling you on the fact that you have nothing to support your claim. Why don't we start with you. Have you ever heard of Jesus Christ? Has any one ever given you a witness of Him? Can you produce testimony from anyone, anywhere in the world that has never received a witness of Jesus Christ? If you have evidence to support your claim then produce it.

-_- there are groups of people in Africa and South America, and Asia that don't even interact with the rest of the world. How about you ask your missionary friends if they have ever encountered someone that said they didn't know who Jesus was, because they are much more likely to personally meet such people than I am.

 

[PsychoSarah]

I looked it up. An example of people that have never been exposed to Christianity are the Kurd people of Turkey.

 

[PsychoSarah]

"So how many of the approximately 16,300 ethnic people groups are considered unreached i.e. less than 2% Christ-follower and less than 5% Professing Christian? The latest estimates suggest that approximately 6,550 people groups are considered unreached. That means over 40% of the world’s people groups have no indigenous community of believing Christians able to evangelize the rest of their people group. Over 42% of the world’s population live in these over 6,550 people groups."

From this source https://joshuaproject.net/resources/articles/has_everyone_heard

 

[Dave-W]

I looked it up. An example of people that have never been exposed to Christianity are the Kurd people of Turkey.

Eh - not really. George M Lamsa grew up in that community as a strong Believer.

Because of the expansion of the Persian empire in the 3rd century and the rise of Islam a few centuries later, that part of the church was cut off from the rest of Christendom until about the mid 1800s. He grew up speaking Aramaic as his first language. It was a thriving community until the last few decades with the rise of radical Islam.