A New Interpretation of Genesis

[TLK Valentine]

You have just made a truth claim.

You sound surprised and bewildered. Surely you're familiar with the truth?

Ok What's the meaning of life according to you ?

I can't give you an answer that would mean anything to you -- I can only give you what I believe to be the meaning of my life. The meaning of your life is something you're going to have to go out and find for yourself.

That is a philosophical world view. The reason I brought that up is. It's not a scientific point of view.
I mean wow, you have made a lot of philosophical opinions for an agnostic. It just doesn't make sense.

Because you seem to be under the mistaken idea that agnostics can't be philosophical. I don't know who told you that, but clearly they were wrong.

I'm not going to take you for an authority based on what you have said.

I didn't ask you to -- did you think I did? Are you accustomed to people trying to tell you what to think?

I'm going to stick with Jesus.

Good for you; you found a meaning.

I would've chosen differently, and in fact, I did. But to each his own...

 

[dougangel]

So, there is no way of knowing before the judgement if you are getting an eternal life? Sounds like a good reason to value your earthly life then.

The meaning of my life is of course to cherish my family and friends, to do good work for the community, and in general be a good person. Why? Because that will reciprocate and bring love and good things back to me. And that is as meaningful as it gets, don't you agree?

Oh your going to love others. Treat people the way you want to be treated (do unto others) Try to be good person (try to do what you think is right or good what ever that is.) because you will reap what you sow.

That's very admirable. It works doesn't it. to bring peace and stability in where others don't bring suffering in.

Look I'm dubious that sounds like a christian message copy.

A lot of that is, Faith based philosophy.
Doesn't seem to be very, you get what you see and everything is physical and survival of the fittest stuff. Don't selfish driven egotists do better materially in life ???

 

[dougangel]

You sound surprised and bewildered. Surely you're familiar with the truth?

It's hard to discuss with someone who doesn't understand basic logic. Your'e agnostic and you are asking me if I'm familiar with truth. I'm sorry I find that incredibly funny. Lol.


A child who is born in Africa and starves to death. What was the meaning of their life ?
Does someone who commits suicide think life is meaningful ?
Do terrorists think a life is meaningful if they take it ?
Do wars actually give the impression life is meaningful ?
Peoples lives that are cut short. Do they have a meaningful life ?

IF your answer is no, to any of those well then there is ""meaning to life and then you die"" can't be the truth.
Why are their lives meaningful ??????????

I'm going to go with Jesus on this one where he says there is sin and error in the world and wicked people cause suffering and innocent people lives are taken and cut short.

I can't give you an answer that would mean anything to you -- I can only give you what I believe to be the meaning of my life. The meaning of your life is something you're going to have to go out and find for yourself.

So suppose I am one of the lucky ones and find meaning to life then I die. Hmmm not really impressed with that. In my opinion your ideas are depressing. Not to sure about the logic of, we all have different meanings either.

Because you seem to be under the mistaken idea that agnostics can't be philosophical. I don't know who told you that, but clearly they were wrong.

Well guess you can and you do. I'm saying it's not logical to do that. Your should be sticking to hard facts shouldn't you ? But its only relative to you so it doesn't really mean anything. That is, its just every bodies opinion and what people know in there culture of the time. It's not absolute before the beginning of the time space continuum according to you. which is different to what Jesus said.


I didn't ask you to -- did you think I did? Are you accustomed to people trying to tell you what to think?

Your making truth claims. I want to take a position. You do realise this is a discussion forum ?


Good for you; you found a meaning.
Will that's condescending isn't it ? But I find you illogical and you haven't found meaning.
I would've chosen differently, and in fact, I did. But to each his own...

In other words it's""" everybody's opinion and I'll carry on till I die."""
That's your answer on life. I Can't take you seriously.

 

[TLK Valentine]

It's hard to discuss with someone who doesn't understand basic logic.

Don't worry about me; I'm doing just fine -- but thanks for your concern.

Your'e agnostic and you are asking me if I'm familiar with truth. I'm sorry I find that incredibly funny. Lol.

It is a hoot, isn't it?

A child who is born in Africa and starves to death. What was the meaning of their life ?

Why ask me? I'm not that child.

Does someone who commits suicide think life is meaningful ?

I'm going to go out on a limb and say they didn't.

Do terrorists think a life is meaningful if they take it ?

Of course -- they took those lives for a reason.

Do wars actually give the impression life is meaningful ?

Is that what they're supposed to do?

Peoples lives that are cut short. Do they have a meaningful life ?

Do you think they don't? What's the minimum amount of time -- in your opinion -- that it takes for a life to have meaning?

IF your answer is no, to any of those well then there is ""meaning to life and then you die"" can't be the truth.
Why are their lives meaningful ??????????

We haven't established yet that they were -- millions of people die of starvation every day -- did their lives matter to you?

People who commit suicide don't see enough meaning in their lives to continue them.

As for terrorists and wars, well... sometimes people find something more valuable than life... and are willing to sacrifice their own -- or, far more likely, someone else's -- life in order to achieve it. Did their life lose meaning because they found something that meant more?

I'm going to go with Jesus on this one where he says there is sin and error in the world and wicked people cause suffering and innocent people lives are taken and cut short.

Does that mean that the people who died young deserved it?

So suppose I am one of the lucky ones and find meaning to life then I die. Hmmm not really impressed with that.

You seem to think that the meaning of life is to impress you -- you're going to find yourself profoundly disappointed with that worldview. But that's your mistake to make.

In my opinion your ideas are depressing. Not to sure about the logic of, we all have different meanings either.

Well, logic hasn't been helping you; don't expect it to now. You like what you believe because you find the alternative too depressing. Not much logic there, friend.

Well guess you can and you do. I'm saying it's not logical to do that.

Don't pretend to invoke logic at this point... it hasn't been helping you.

Your should be sticking to hard facts shouldn't you ?

Should I? Says who?

But its only relative to you so it doesn't really mean anything. That is, its just every bodies opinion and what people know in there culture of the time. It's not absolute before the beginning of the time space continuum according to you. which is different to what Jesus said.

Indeed -- what I say is quite different from what Jesus said. Are you just noticing that now?

Of course, what Jesus said was also quite different from what God said in the Old Testament, which is one of the reasons the people of his time found him so controversial. But I digress...

Your making truth claims. I want to take a position. You do realise this is a discussion forum ?

Indeed; I'm making truth claims. You still haven't explained why you find that so shocking.

Will that's condescending isn't it ?

You might think so; but I don't. I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree, and stand by our opinions.
That's not a problem, is it?

But I find you illogical and you haven't found meaning.

I take the first part as a compliment; in all honesty, I'm not sure what you mean by "logic," but I suspect I'd have a lot of correcting to do if you explained it.

As for the second part, you never asked me what I thought the meaning of my life was -- I'm going to assume at this point that you don't care. That's fine; you don't have to pretend otherwise.

In other words it's""" everybody's opinion and I'll carry on till I die."""
That's your answer on life. I Can't take you seriously.

If you prefer to have the meaning of your life assigned to you, that's your business.

I can't really take you seriously, either, but if you know anything about logic, you probably should've figured that out by now via abductive reasoning.

 

[Herman Hedning]

Oh your going to love others. Treat people the way you want to be treated (do unto others) Try to be good person (try to do what you think is right or good what ever that is.) because you will reap what you sow.

That's very admirable. It works doesn't it. to bring peace and stability in where others don't bring suffering in.

Look I'm dubious that sounds like a christian message copy.

Do you now? Well, I'm sorry to have to break this to you, but christianity does not have sole rights to the golden rule. A good idea is a good idea, and I don't need a sky daddy to tell me so.

A lot of that is, Faith based philosophy.

What faith would that be? Faith in humanity?

Doesn't seem to be very, you get what you see and everything is physical and survival of the fittest stuff. Don't selfish driven egotists do better materially in life ???

Not in general, no. For animals (yes, that includes humans) living and working together in groups, packs, societies, there is a distinct evolutionary advantage to altruism. Unfortunately, this is still not self evident to everybody and one important factor is the many religions clouding people's minds with promises of rewards in an afterlife, thus making them not fully appreciate their real life. We can only hope to be able to see the light without the blinders of religion eventually.

 

[PsychoSarah]

Doesn't seem to be very, you get what you see and everything is physical and survival of the fittest stuff. Don't selfish driven egotists do better materially in life ???

Not in social species in which we rely on working in groups to survive. There are benefits to selflessness in terms of group survival over individual survival. Take bees, for example. The vast majority of bees never reproduce, as they are merely infertile drones. However, they benefit from serving the queen, whom they are all related to, as she will eventually lay an egg destined also to become a queen that will be a genetic sister to all the drones. If an individual cannot promote the continuation of their genes through reproducing directly, the next best alternative is to promote a close relative's reproductive success. With siblings, this makes the offspring promoted carry 1/4th the genes of the drones rather than half, but this proportion is still significantly better than none, and with the numerous offspring bee queens have, the genes are actually passed on more extensively than if the drones all were out for themselves.

Early humans lived in groups that were more or less extended family units, so dying for the sake of your neighbor that also is more likely than not your cousin has evolutionary benefits, as does promoting their wellbeing. Not only is it better that more in the group survive for the sake of making each individual more likely to live and reproduce, but given that so many in the group are related, protecting each other ensures more of ones individual genes get passed on without having to be involved in reproducing directly.

The egotist approach only works in creatures like tigers, which need huge territories to support one individual and are so strong individually as to make cooperation more of a hassle than a benefit. Furthermore, there is that bit about how being likable as a person makes it easier to find a mate well enough to match how much wealth promotes it, and one need not be a terrible person to attain wealth.

 

[PsychoSarah]

Ok. what is the meaning of your life ?????

In my case, it has no inherent meaning. And that's not a bad thing. I am free to forge the path of my life as I see fit, within the limits of any natural advantages and disadvantages I end up having as a consequence of genetics, upbringing, and the social standing of my parents as well as access to resources. For example, I am so challenged in coordination that I cannot drive, so that makes it unreasonable for me to live where public transportation is unavailable or unreliable. However, thanks to my parents being relatively well-off and taking it upon themselves to pay for my schooling, I voluntarily chose to pay them back as I can rather than having to out of necessity. Most people do not have the luxury of choice in that matter, and of those that do, not many would decide to pay their parents back. While paying them back may seem morally right, there are potential consequences to it that are negative. For one thing, it would slow down my own progress of becoming an independent, financially stable adult, as I would be paying for an expense by choice that I don't have any social or legal obligation to. Additionally, what if my parents were gamblers or relatively untrustworthy with extra income? It would hardly be doing them a favor to pay them back then, so it is highly dependent upon situation.

 

[PsychoSarah]

An all knowing righteous God of Justice and mercy is going to sort that out at judgement day. We don't know the standard we just have to attempt to do the will of the father which is to attempt to interpret and follow the teaching of Jesus and the New testament.

How I define merciful doesn't allow for anything with that quality to willfully allow eternal torment to exist for anyone, for any crime. True mercy and forgiveness do not demand something in return; kindness with a cost is never really kind, especially if not everyone can voluntarily pay it by conscious choice.

You keep bombarding us with questions with out answering my question.
Whats your alternative ?

You word that as if personal preference is relevant, which it isn't. If YHWH exists as described in the bible, then everyone has to live with it, regardless as to whether or not we view this being as just or not. And I am cowardly enough to serve a tyrant to get into heaven if I had to, I just don't believe in that deity, so it isn't a feasible option to me. I can't really serve something I perceive as not being real. I do have a concept of what an ideal afterlife would be to me, but I don't think it exists, expect anyone else to think it exists, or want people to think it exists.

what is the meaning of your life for you ?????

I know this whole deal is not directed at me, and I have personally answered this question already, as I am somewhat imposing on this discussion, but I do have a question for you: why would any answer to that matter? Life having no meaning isn't inherently bad, nor is having one inherently good, and what a person perceives as the meaning in their life has no theological relevance other than there are some trends amongst people of shared mindsets and faiths, albeit loose ones.

 

[dougangel]

Do you now? Well, I'm sorry to have to break this to you, but christianity does not have sole rights to the golden rule. A good idea is a good idea, and I don't need a sky daddy to tell me so.



What faith would that be? Faith in humanity?

Come on lets be fair. Of all the worlds religious philosophies on how we interact with fellow man. You have chosen the christian world view and you say it makes sense.


Not in general, no. For animals (yes, that includes humans) living and working together in groups, packs, societies, there is a distinct evolutionary advantage to altruism. Unfortunately, this is still not self evident to everybody and one important factor is the many religions clouding people's minds with promises of rewards in an afterlife, thus making them not fully appreciate their real life. We can only hope to be able to see the light without the blinders of religion eventually.

That's your opinion, billions of people through the ages have believed and witnessed to the spiritual nature of God. Another point of evidence is man does have a propensity too worship that is innate in there character. Even secular people show sport star or pop star form of worship.

Matthew 4:4
New International Version (NIV)

4 Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God

 

[dougangel]

Don't worry about me; I'm doing just fine -- but thanks for your concern.



It is a hoot, isn't it?



Why ask me? I'm not that child.



I'm going to go out on a limb and say they didn't.



Of course -- they took those lives for a reason.



Is that what they're supposed to do?



Do you think they don't? What's the minimum amount of time -- in your opinion -- that it takes for a life to have meaning?



We haven't established yet that they were -- millions of people die of starvation every day -- did their lives matter to you?

People who commit suicide don't see enough meaning in their lives to continue them.

As for terrorists and wars, well... sometimes people find something more valuable than life... and are willing to sacrifice their own -- or, far more likely, someone else's -- life in order to achieve it. Did their life lose meaning because they found something that meant more?



Does that mean that the people who died young deserved it?




You seem to think that the meaning of life is to impress you -- you're going to find yourself profoundly disappointed with that worldview. But that's your mistake to make.




Well, logic hasn't been helping you; don't expect it to now. You like what you believe because you find the alternative too depressing. Not much logic there, friend.



Don't pretend to invoke logic at this point... it hasn't been helping you.



Should I? Says who?



Indeed -- what I say is quite different from what Jesus said. Are you just noticing that now?

Of course, what Jesus said was also quite different from what God said in the Old Testament, which is one of the reasons the people of his time found him so controversial. But I digress...



Indeed; I'm making truth claims. You still haven't explained why you find that so shocking.



You might think so; but I don't. I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree, and stand by our opinions.
That's not a problem, is it?



I take the first part as a compliment; in all honesty, I'm not sure what you mean by "logic," but I suspect I'd have a lot of correcting to do if you explained it.

As for the second part, you never asked me what I thought the meaning of my life was -- I'm going to assume at this point that you don't care. That's fine; you don't have to pretend otherwise.



If you prefer to have the meaning of your life assigned to you, that's your business.

I can't really take you seriously, either, but if you know anything about logic, you probably should've figured that out by now via abductive reasoning.

I could go all of that and sort out what you have misconstrued but quite frankly I don't want to spare the time or effort anymore.
I asked you what is the meaning of your life for you ?????


you made this truth claim
"""Life if not meaningless -- but it is temporary."""

I said it is meaningless for a lot of people, they don't find meaning in their life and many people have had their lives cut short

I don't find your answer very enlightening. I think I will stick with Christs teachings on the subject. Thanks anyway.
At least read Mathew and that may give you some Idea what the other persons position first and may give u some wisdom

 

[Hoghead1]

I disagree, NotByChance. Gen. 1 and Gen. 2 are two very different creation myths. Their chronologies contradict one another. They were written by two different authors, with two different agendas, at two different times in history. I can fill you in more if you want.

 

[TLK Valentine]

I could go all of that and sort out what you have misconstrued but quite frankly I don't want to spare the time or effort anymore.

I accept your surrender.

I asked you what is the meaning of your life for you ?????

One "?" is quite enough -- and now that you've finally asked, I believe that the meaning of my life is to leave this world in slightly better shape than when I found it... I choose to do that through education.

you made this truth claim
"""Life if not meaningless -- but it is temporary."""

And for some reason, you found that bewildering -- either because of the message itself, or because, for some reason, you didn't think I was supposed to say it.

I said it is meaningless for a lot of people, they don't find meaning in their life and many people have had their lives cut short

And that's unfortunate.

I don't find your answer very enlightening.

I doubt you were looking for enlightenment. Don't seek, and ye shall not find...

I think I will stick with Christs teachings on the subject. Thanks anyway.

I never suggested you should do otherwise -- did you assume I had? How odd.

At least read Mathew and that may give you some Idea what the other persons position first and may give u some wisdom

I've read Matthew -- I prefer Mark; it's a more candid look at the true Jesus, before the stories started to snowball...

Wisdom, after all, begins with truth.

 

[razzelflabben]

Sure, but let's assume he was. An entire life of evildoing, and then a deathbed conversion and true repentance. Isn't that enough? Most christians seem to think so.

From the standpoint of scripture, it is possible, but rare and not very likely and not something that one who understands the scriptural teaching would want to risk.

Also, there are two judgments, one for the believers is that of our actions, the result does not seem to be heaven or hell but does involve some things like rewards, not sure all of those rewards.

 

[razzelflabben]

So, there is no way of knowing before the judgement if you are getting an eternal life? Sounds like a good reason to value your earthly life then.

actually scripture tells us how to be sure...and even what evidence we have that is an assurance to our doubts.

The meaning of my life is of course to cherish my family and friends, to do good work for the community, and in general be a good person. Why? Because that will reciprocate and bring love and good things back to me. And that is as meaningful as it gets, don't you agree?

Sounds like you are borrowing some of your ideas from scripture...

 

[dougangel]

I accept your surrender.

You equate that to surrender ? I find you confused.

One "?" is quite enough -- and now that you've finally asked, I believe that the meaning of my life is to leave this world in slightly better shape than when I found it... I choose to do that through education.

Your in error. I asked you that in post# 190
Also we could get into a discussion about whether modern industrial man is going to leave the planet in a better shape than they found it?
In fact, Jesus said, he has to step in because man is on the verge of destroying himself.

And for some reason, you found that bewildering -- either because of the message itself, or because, for some reason, you didn't think I was supposed to say it.

Well, you seem to be swinging to and from agnosticism to atheism. Your making philosophical truth claims which life forces us to do. Which has been one of my points that you don't seemed to picked up on.
I tried to get you to explain your truth claim.
That is "if life is temporary, as you say, what is the meaning of life or whats your answer?
Why would I leave my spiritual Relationship with Jesus for what you have said ?

And that's unfortunate.
that's true


I doubt you were looking for enlightenment. Don't seek, and ye shall not find...

hmm you don't think I haven't been looking at peoples truth claims. I've got to be honest. I don't find you a very wise person.

I never suggested you should do otherwise -- did you assume I had? How odd.

well your making truth claims that are opposite to Jesus. Either your right or he's right. I gave you a chance to explain why I would leave his truth claims for yours. And quite frankly I'm unimpressed. I don't find fault with Jesus but I find fault and error with you.

I've read Matthew -- I prefer Mark; it's a more candid look at the true Jesus, before the stories started to snowball...
well that's your opinion. I wonder how you would go if I tested you on Mark ?
Wisdom, after all, begins with truth.

 

[Herman Hedning]

Sounds like you are borrowing some of your ideas from scripture...

Again I have to note that christianity does not have sole rights to the golden rule. It is pretty much self evident to reasonable persons.

 

[Herman Hedning]

Duplicate.

 

[razzelflabben]

Again I have to note that christianity does not have sole rights to the golden rule. It is pretty much self evident to reasonable persons.

two things, 1. I didn't say it was exclusive, I said that it sounded like you borrowed from scripture, which given the age of the bible verses your age, is only logical. 2. as to the issue of self evidence, let me remind you that scripture says that God has written His law on our hearts. Now, that law referred to there (NT) is the law of Love, you know, the love that you talk about striving for and the love that all men are seeking....thus, you have just provided yet another evidence that scripture is truth. How much fun is that!!!!

 

[Herman Hedning]

two things, 1. I didn't say it was exclusive, I said that it sounded like you borrowed from scripture, which given the age of the bible verses your age, is only logical. 2. as to the issue of self evidence, let me remind you that scripture says that God has written His law on our hearts. Now, that law referred to there (NT) is the law of Love, you know, the love that you talk about striving for and the love that all men are seeking....thus, you have just provided yet another evidence that scripture is truth. How much fun is that!!!!

That is a lot of fun, certainly. Such circular reasoning always makes me smile.

 

[razzelflabben]

That is a lot of fun, certainly. Such circular reasoning always makes me smile.

lol it's funny you think that it is circular reasoning, the definition of circular reasoning is...
a use of reason in which the premises depends on or is equivalent to the conclusion, a method of false logic by which "this is used to prove that, and that is used to prove this"; also called circular logic


You see, neither of the arguments presented fits the definition of circular reasoning and yet you claim it does, which is funny. Anytime someone is boastful of something so easy to show to be false is funny....ah well, I'll just assume you misspoke and move one with a good laugh at your post.