A futurist view of Revelation is insulting!

[eclipsenow]

It fits because many of the other prophecies are about Hitler and WW II, like the 200 million horses prepared (or manufactured) for release in one day, D-day, against the forces of the antichrist.

The lower 50 miles of the Euphrates was bone dry for 9 years, dried up By Saddam Hussein with a couple dams and a diversion canal that he named the Mother of All Battles River.

What if John was, as he actually said he was, writing about things that were going to start soon, because the time was near?

Even WW2 had no '200 million horses' or tanks! The Earth has never seen that many soldiers in battle at once. But here's a thought.

What if that's just a very big number to indicate the huge Asian military (comparatively) to the East of Jerusalem that so many in the Ancient Middle East were quite worried about? Genghis Khan eventually proved their concerns justified! What if it's not just about that, but also applies generically to every time in history we're concerned about arms races, from rival kingdoms in Old England and the development of the English long-bow through to WW1 and the machine gun and tank and even, potentially, WW3 with nukes? What are we to do in the face of such might?

Remember the Lord is bigger.

 

[Biblewriter]

What if John was, as he actually said he was, writing about things that were going to start soon, because the time was near?

There can be no doubt that this is exactly what the words of Revelation 1:3 mean. But the time scale being referred to was God's time scale, not man's. In God's time scale, that a day is with the Lord as a thousand years, He gave this word only a couple of days ago.

Even WW2 had no '200 million horses' or tanks! The Earth has never seen that many soldiers in battle at once. But here's a thought.

What if that's just a very big number to indicate the huge Asian military (comparatively) to the East of Jerusalem that so many in the Ancient Middle East were quite worried about? Genghis Khan eventually proved their concerns justified! What if it's not just about that, but also applies generically to every time in history we're concerned about arms races, from rival kingdoms in Old England and the development of the English long-bow through to WW1 and the machine gun and tank and even, potentially, WW3 with nukes? What are we to do in the face of such might?

Remember the Lord is bigger.

If it was only a symbolic number, why did it say " I heard the number of them." and "the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand:" This is very explicitly stated.

And you are correct that such a large army has never been assembled. But that is exactly the number of soldiers that China now claims they can field at any time.

 

[trumpeter]

There is so much craziness in christian forums that I wonder if the people posting have read their Bibles moe than once or twice in their lives.

Sir, look at yourself in the mirror.

 

[vinsight4u]

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[Almighty's humble servant]

Not sure of the logic here?


Can you show me where he says this?


Why do you read the mark literally? Does Jesus actually have 7 eyes and 7 horns?

Tell me this. Did God literally put a visible MARK on the Christians? For directly after Chapter 13 that everyone is just so fascinated in comes this handy little reminder that this whole BOOK is symbolic.

1 Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads.

Is that literal? Is there only going to be 144,000 people in heaven with God's name literally written on their foreheads? Or is this imagery about the seal of the Holy Spirit in the Christian's life?

Here's a thought. The Jews love to say things 3 times for emphasis. "Holy, Holy, Holy, is the Lord God Almighty".

6 is a man's number. We were created on the 6th day, and work for 6 days. So, instead of this being some special NAME code, what if the emphasis on this passage is more that the ungodly will be willing to prostitute their ethics for money.

16 It also forced all people, great and small, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hands or on their foreheads, 17 so that they could not buy or sell unless they had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of its name. 18 This calls for wisdom. Let the person who has insight calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man.[e] That number is 666.

Literally, 'let them figure it'. Not name it. We're not looking for Gorbechev or Saddam Hussein or Obama. We (all Christians of the last 2000 years and counting) are meant to read the symbolism here. We're looking for a NUMBER, not a name, and that symbolism is "man trying to be like the trinity, like God". In other words, this is about those who are willing to do anything for money, even defy their faith for gain.

If you've ever been passed over a promotion or refused a job because you're a Christian and too ethical for certain people, this verse applies to you. It's a generic description of the suffering many had in Rome but it also applies to all Christians throughout all ages who have ever suffered discrimination or prejudice for Jesus.

Basically, instead of reading the gospel imagery and number symbolism for what it is, you're forcing your presuppositions about what this 'prophecy' must mean now to ... justify reading it as a prophecy in the first place, and have a go at defining what it must mean now.

That's a circular argument.

Just don't let them chip you brother.................those destined to be imprisoned WILL be imprisoned, and those destined for death with find it.....just don't be one who prays for death, but cannot find it.

 

[eclipsenow]

Just don't let them chip you brother.................those destined to be imprisoned WILL be imprisoned, and those destined for death with find it.....just don't be one who prays for death, but cannot find it.

That's like saying God's Sovereign Will will be done!

Umm, yes, of course. But... how is that relevant to how we are to decide what to do with Revelation? Or are you just being dogmatic, and saying "My reading of Revelation is right and those visions I've had about Revelation WILL happen..."

 

[eclipsenow]

Rev. 4:1 starts a "hereafter" section. This portion of Rev. has been made into a puzzle. It was not for John's day. Just as Daniel was told to shut up the words, John had to make the "mystery" of God sayings.

This is rubbish. Sorry, but Daniel seals up the scroll with the wonderful mystery on it, then John weeps that no one can be found who is worthy to open the scroll... until Jesus opens it. Then we have a recap of the gospel itself. The seals are opened and what is the mystery? The gospel of Jesus Christ, that will reveal God's salvation to include not just Israel, but the gentiles as well! The rest of the NT backs this up. The 'mystery' of the ages is a mystery no longer. It's actually crystal clear.

 

[vinsight4u]

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[vinsight4u]

/

 

[Almighty's humble servant]

That's like saying God's Sovereign Will will be done!

Umm, yes, of course. But... how is that relevant to how we are to decide what to do with Revelation? Or are you just being dogmatic, and saying "My reading of Revelation is right and those visions I've had about Revelation WILL happen..."

Yeah, in a nutshell.......but some might call casting away the theories of man, allow the Word to interpret itself, and making myself unto a child.

 

[eclipsenow]

Yeah, in a nutshell.......but some might call casting away the theories of man, allow the Word to interpret itself, and making myself unto a child.

What convinces you that you're right, and that I'm wrong? What makes you arrogant enough to call a Reformed Evangelical position on biblical eschatology the 'theories of man'? You don't sound very broadly read. For all you know, you're the one who is promoting the theories of man. Very silly, very divisive, very distracting, and not very gospel focussed theories. It's all about timetables and fearing the rise of the Anti-Christ and favouring National Israel over the Palestinians and any other 'ingredient' in a Tim LaHaye End Times novel. It's not about Jesus, the gospel, or social justice for the Palestinians.

It's perverse.

 

[Biblewriter]

What convinces you that you're right, and that I'm wrong? What makes you arrogant enough to call a Reformed Evangelical position on biblical eschatology the 'theories of man'? You don't sound very broadly read. For all you know, you're the one who is promoting the theories of man. Very silly, very divisive, very distracting, and not very gospel focussed theories. It's all about timetables and fearing the rise of the Anti-Christ and favouring National Israel over the Palestinians and any other 'ingredient' in a Tim LaHaye End Times novel. It's not about Jesus, the gospel, or social justice for the Palestinians.

It's perverse.

In the case of the book of Revelation itself, since most of it is in apocalyptical language, there is room for debate about the meanings of much of what it says. But this is not the case for the many explicitly stated prophecies couched in plain words.

The scriptures that very clearly describe numerous events that were to take place sometime in the future, as compared to when they were written. But many of these events have unquestionably not taken place.

Anyone who denies that these unfulfilled prophecies will still be fulfilled in the future is indeed substituting the doctrines of man for the pure word of God.

 

[interpreter]

What if John was, as he actually said he was, writing about things that were going to start soon, because the time was near?

Even WW2 had no '200 million horses' or tanks! The Earth has never seen that many soldiers in battle at once. But here's a thought.

What if that's just a very big number to indicate the huge Asian military (comparatively) to the East of Jerusalem that so many in the Ancient Middle East were quite worried about? Genghis Khan eventually proved their concerns justified! What if it's not just about that, but also applies generically to every time in history we're concerned about arms races, from rival kingdoms in Old England and the development of the English long-bow through to WW1 and the machine gun and tank and even, potentially, WW3 with nukes? What are we to do in the face of such might?

Remember the Lord is bigger.

The original Greek says 200 milion horses, not horsemen. Think horses under the hood. The 4 angels that manufacture and release the horses represent the United Staes, Canada, the UK, and Ausralia.

 

[That Canadian Guy]

It strikes me as absurdly self-indulgent to read Revelation as some future timetable for this generation alone! It's as if we want to be the most important generation since the Cross, and we know it. Nope. That won't do. It would make the book of Revelation irrelevant to the church for the last 2000 years, and basically insisting there's going to be an 'extra-bad' special period of tribulation for the future just sounds patronising to all those who gave their lives for Christ this year, in the last decade, and especially last century... the most violent century in human history!

Try telling Richard Wurmbrant that he didn't live through a 'tribulation'. Try telling all those murdered in Communist countries and Muslim countries in the last 100 years. Try telling someone who watched their family get buried alive in Africa, and had to watch their children begging for their lives.

It's insulting. The idea of a 'special' tribulation that is going to occur in the future diminishes the martyrdom of those who have gone before us.

This is just one of the side effects of a futurist view of Revelation.

But the MOST serious is that the book then becomes irrelevant for the vast majority of Christian history. If it's only about NOW, then it's had nothing to say to the Christians over the last 2000 years.

John said it was about things that were going to happen SOON, in his generation, and that the TIME WAS NEAR!

So what is the book about?

Revelation describes the imminent Roman persecution of Christians with a lot of symbolic writing and Old Testament metaphors thrown in. It covers our security under persecution, our security in the chaos of natural disasters, and our security in war and disaster. We're safe, and God is judging this world as we wait for the FINAL judgement. God is in control, even when bad things happen. So trust Him!

That's the message, in a nutshell. So it has plenty to say to Christians in ALL situations and ages and circumstances, even us in the filthy rich west. In vivid picture language, it warns us not to trust in money or worldly security. It warns us natural disasters can pluck us or our loved ones out of history and into eternity at ANY moment; but that ultimately, we are eternally secure.

I find it a disturbing book precisely BECAUSE it doesn't describe some 10 year future timetable, but precisely because it is generic and describes all situations anywhere, anything could happen to me and to my family; and God would not have broken any promises to me! He warned me. In his love, he wrote this letter to warn me that we live in desperate times. In these 'last days' as Peter called them. 2000 years ago.

The futurist model is the only one that appeals to sound, exegetical interpretation, and is the only real tenable position. Preterism and historicism do not leave much room for that at all. I understand what you mean, but it is misplaced. We do not let go of sound Biblical doctrine on the basis of our emotions and personal perceptions.

 

[eclipsenow]

The original Greek says 200 milion horses, not horsemen. Think horses under the hood. The 4 angels that manufacture and release the horses represent the United Staes, Canada, the UK, and Ausralia.

See how silly this game is? Horses under the hood? Are you for real?

And I have no idea why you're insisting we ignore Taiwan, Korea, Japan and China as car manufacturers? Let alone Germany and Sweden and Switzerland and other European nations. But hey, it's your whacky futurist scenario and you believe it, that's all that matters right?

 

[eclipsenow]

The futurist model is the only one that appeals to sound, exegetical interpretation, and is the only real tenable position. Preterism and historicism do not leave much room for that at all. I understand what you mean, but it is misplaced. We do not let go of sound Biblical doctrine on the basis of our emotions and personal perceptions.

Yeah, sound exegesis like the 'horses under the hood' I just encountered in my last post. Real 'sound', like the 'sound' of 200 million horsepower racing from Australia, the USA, Canada and UK.

 

[interpreter]

See how silly this game is? Horses under the hood? Are you for real?

And I have no idea why you're insisting we ignore Taiwan, Korea, Japan and China as car manufacturers? Let alone Germany and Sweden and Switzerland and other European nations. But hey, it's your whacky futurist scenario and you believe it, that's all that matters right?

To see that I am right, just add up the horse power that descended on the beaches of Normandy on D-Day. There was lots of tanks and jeeps, plus the horsepower of the Navy vessels and the airpower.

Most of the Revelation has already taken place. We are now experiencing the 7 last plagues.

 

[Barraco]

Rev. 4:1 starts a "hereafter" section. This portion of Rev. has been made into a puzzle. It was not for John's day. Just as Daniel was told to shut up the words, John had to make the "mystery" of God sayings.

I think chapter 4:1 is setting a theme that will carry on until chapter 12:1, where another sign takes place in heaven. The chapter theme starting with John being taken up to the throne room in heaven is the theme of God's supremacy over all creation (sea of fire), heavenly host (multitudes of angels), creatures (four beasts), and governments (24 elders casting down their crowns).

In chapter five, Jesus receives that supreme authority (Matthew 28:20) and begins exercising it (seven seals).

So, I think it was for John's day, and affects us today as well, seeing that Revelation 11 hasn't been fulfilled yet (because Christ has not returned yet).

 

[Barraco]

See how silly this game is? Horses under the hood? Are you for real?

And I have no idea why you're insisting we ignore Taiwan, Korea, Japan and China as car manufacturers? Let alone Germany and Sweden and Switzerland and other European nations. But hey, it's your whacky futurist scenario and you believe it, that's all that matters right?

You seem to be emotionally scared by futurism. What could have been so traumatic that you are now on a mission to make all futurists feel stupid about their interpretations?

 

[Gnarwhal]

You seem to be emotionally scared by futurism. What could have been so traumatic that you are now on a mission to make all futurists feel stupid about their interpretations?

Hm, I've felt that same way about a hand full of futurists here, something about partial-preterists has them so angry that they would almost assert that they're hell-bound.